Quoted: I've read and re-read "The box o truth", and I think he is stacking the deck against birdshot. Why is it that every time he mentions that he tried birdshot it is always some light target load with little #8 shot? Why doesn't he test the larger birdshot sizes in full loads or 3" magnums? He even says he loads 3" magnum buckshot in his HD gun. I'm not trying to argue, these are legitimate questions. I want to know...

Read it one more time.  He says he does it for fun; "...it's fun to shoot stuff!"

He takes donations and suggestions.  Send him some ammo, and ask him to test it and publish the results.

I'll point back tot he ARF standby:

Shotguns are good for hunting and certain tactical application, but there are better weapons for home defense...

Equipped with reliably fragmenting light-weight ammuntion, a .223 rifle is actually safer for indoor use than a shotgun loaded with EFFECTIVE ( 0 Buck or larger ) shot...

Add in faster follow-up shots, less recoil & less flash, and you get the picture...

Further, any 'pattern effect' (which, for most shottys is grapefruit size or smaller at defensive range) is equaled (At least) by the shot group scatter of rapid-firing a mag of .223

Quoted: I'll point back tot he ARF standby: Shotguns are good for hunting and certain tactical application, but there are better weapons for home defense... Equipped with reliably fragmenting light-weight ammuntion, a .223 rifle is actually safer for indoor use than a shotgun loaded with EFFECTIVE ( 0 Buck or larger ) shot... Add in faster follow-up shots, less recoil & less flash, and you get the picture... Further, any 'pattern effect' (which, for most shottys is grapefruit size or smaller at defensive range) is equaled (At least) by the shot group scatter of rapid-firing a mag of .223

Wait a minute...did I click on the wrong tab?  I thought I was in the SHOTGUN section of the forum in a thread about "Birdshot For Defense".

When did they start making birdshot for the plastic plinker rifles?

Quoted: I'll point back tot he ARF standby: Shotguns are good for hunting and certain tactical application, but there are better weapons for home defense... Equipped with reliably fragmenting light-weight ammuntion, a .223 rifle is actually safer for indoor use than a shotgun loaded with EFFECTIVE ( 0 Buck or larger ) shot... Add in faster follow-up shots, less recoil & less flash, and you get the picture... Further, any 'pattern effect' (which, for most shottys is grapefruit size or smaller at defensive range) is equaled (At least) by the shot group scatter of rapid-firing a mag of .223

i don't care. . you're still shooting a lightweight varmint round.  Do you realize how loud a .223 round fired inside a dwelling would be?(especially if it has a compensator) -  the intensity is more than a shotgun loaded with low recoil buck. pffft.

IMHO, low recoil 00 buckshot and LR slugs are ideal for  HD.  
Federal makes (or made) a 'Personal Defense' load for the shotgun using copper plated #2 shot at not too high of a velocity some of you may wish to look into

Quoted: Case in point: I settled a case 5 years ago where two high school kids were playing with a Remington 870 12 gauge loaded with 6 shot. The gun went off, passed through the wall and hit a 12 year old girl in the next room while she was doing homework. The wound was grevious and nearly removed her entire face. Yes, very good point - AFTER PASSING THROUGH A WALL (luckily the girl survived) That's exactly why birdshot is a good choice for home defense. And exactly the reason why so many law enforcement officers and home defense instructors recommend it. What if there were NO wall  between the girl's face and the muzzle of the 12 guage 870 ? Lacks penetration? Again, at bedroom hallway range - say ten to fifteen feet - birdshot from a 12 guage - any choke, any size is going to cut a swath through a human torso 4" to 6" deep The average adult male torso is 10" thick.. A center of mass hit with a 12 guage shotgun, with birdshot at about ten feet, is going to cause a wound that will cuisinart internal organs and blood vessels. Anyone here would agree that a kitchen knife could easily be used as a lethal weapon. Set up a 4" thick phone book on a target frame and try stabbing the book and see how deep you can cut it into it. You'd make a channel the size of the knife blade through about half the book if you forcefully stabbed into the pages with all your might Now, if a 12 guage shotgun with #6 shot heavy or light field load were used instead, at very close range - one shot would likely blow through the entire book with an entry hole about 2" in diameter and an exit channel about the size of a small tangerine with a big, ragged tunnel cut all the way through. About ten years ago I was hunting pheasant using #7-1/2 shot 1-1/8 oz. trap reloads at (3-dram eq) which is 1/4 dram eq lighter in powder charge and having 1/8 oz less pellets than a standard field load and had one pheasant flip in flight and turn towards me and I fired at about a range of 15-20 yards The result? The pheasant stopped in mid flight-flew backwards head over feet tumbling over about two or three times - as if flying head on into the radiator grill of a Mack Truck at highway speed. The resulting wound channel was three to four inches wide and blew through the entire bird breast through back including blowing through the wings as well. This was with a load that was lighter than #6 field loads and at a distance four to six times greater than you would be if you confronted an armed intruder at the top of your bedroom hallway stairs. I've been shooting shotguns for over 25 years. I know what birdshot does and does not do. I saw the "box o' truth" pages many months ago. The man is testing wall penetration again. Birshot lacks penetration through hard barriers like doors and sheet metal. On an exposed human being it WILL KILL at close ranges. No question about it.

I'll remember that if I am ever attacked by re-animated phone books, trying to eat my brains.
Phone books aren't people - you cannot judge ballistics because of how a round performs on a phonebook or a a pot roast.
Set up ballistic gelation, calibrate it, and then test your theory.

Actually, the REAL reason for home defense birdshot will become obvious if we have a bird flu event.  

...And ballistic gelatin isn't a human, either. Referring back to local shotshell related fatalities in CT, we have one hunter who died in 1996 or 1997 after being shot with 12 ga birdshot. We have one homicide on record during the past decade involving a shotgun: a 16 ga; as a matter of fact, using small birdshot.

Quoted: Actually, the REAL reason for home defense birdshot will become obvious if we have a bird flu event.

The U.S. has already said that they will not do mass killings of birds.  To that, I say "okay...I'll take care of it for a small fee and they provide the ammo!"

Oh, but don't you know.... you must use at least 00 buck 15 pellet 3" magnum as birdshot is totally ineffective and lacks any penetration. In fact, beyond three inches, birdshot cannot  do more than ruffle a bird's feathers.

All those birds falling from the sky in hunting fields throughout the world have died from being overcome with shock from the noise of the gun going off - not the birdshot, itself. The same phenomenon occurs if people are shot with birdshot, even at close range - it must be the shock of the noise , because birdshot can't hurt anything....

If your quarry is larger than a pheasant, you must use tungsten core 3-1/2" magnum slugs at 1,800 fps....anything less results in the round bouncing off the thick layer of feathers and wingbones.

Quoted: Along with the megaphone, don't forget ... the shotgun must be loaded with Ultra Slugs made of polymer coated tungsten alloy with truncated point for maximum penetration loaded to 4-dram equivalent and 1,700 fps - anything less in a 12 guage shotgun is totally  ineffective for defense and will result in merely scratching and welting the surface skin on your armed home intruder!

Who makes those, Extreme shock or Le Mas?

Quoted: Quoted: You guys got it all wrong! There is no need to even have the Shotgun loaded. Instead just rack the action and that will make the bad guys shit themselves and run off. Heh I just had to throw that out there cuz it makes me chuckle when I hear that being said. It is a very intimidating sound...I would sure think twice on advancing after hearing it.

I like the sound of my A5 magnum loading better . Birdshot up close and nothing more inside a house . I have seen a few people killed with birdshot. BUT U never know how everything will come out in the end of a CQB with birdshot. Some say BS well take the barrel to your head and see. OUT. Tuna

Quoted: Unload your shotgun. This is all that you'll ever need! img362.imageshack.us/img362/3361/shotgunmegaphone2qb.gif

that is some funny shit right there.

Quoted: Case in point: I settled a case 5 years ago where two high school kids were playing with a Remington 870 12 gauge loaded with 6 shot. The gun went off, passed through the wall and hit a 12 year old girl in the next room while she was doing homework. The wound was grevious and nearly removed her entire face. Yes, very good point - AFTER PASSING THROUGH A WALL (luckily the girl survived) That's exactly why birdshot is a good choice for home defense. And exactly the reason why so many law enforcement officers and home defense instructors recommend it. What if there were NO wall  between the girl's face and the muzzle of the 12 guage 870 ? Lacks penetration? Again, at bedroom hallway range - say ten to fifteen feet - birdshot from a 12 guage - any choke, any size is going to cut a swath through a human torso 4" to 6" deep The average adult male torso is 10" thick.. A center of mass hit with a 12 guage shotgun, with birdshot at about ten feet, is going to cause a wound that will cuisinart internal organs and blood vessels. Anyone here would agree that a kitchen knife could easily be used as a lethal weapon. Set up a 4" thick phone book on a target frame and try stabbing the book and see how deep you can cut it into it. You'd make a channel the size of the knife blade through about half the book if you forcefully stabbed into the pages with all your might Now, if a 12 guage shotgun with #6 shot heavy or light field load were used instead, at very close range - one shot would likely blow through the entire book with an entry hole about 2" in diameter and an exit channel about the size of a small tangerine with a big, ragged tunnel cut all the way through. About ten years ago I was hunting pheasant using #7-1/2 shot 1-1/8 oz. trap reloads at (3-dram eq) which is 1/4 dram eq lighter in powder charge and having 1/8 oz less pellets than a standard field load and had one pheasant flip in flight and turn towards me and I fired at about a range of 15-20 yards The result? The pheasant stopped in mid flight-flew backwards head over feet tumbling over about two or three times - as if flying head on into the radiator grill of a Mack Truck at highway speed. The resulting wound channel was three to four inches wide and blew through the entire bird breast through back including blowing through the wings as well. This was with a load that was lighter than #6 field loads and at a distance four to six times greater than you would be if you confronted an armed intruder at the top of your bedroom hallway stairs. I've been shooting shotguns for over 25 years. I know what birdshot does and does not do. I saw the "box o' truth" pages many months ago. The man is testing wall penetration again. Birshot lacks penetration through hard barriers like doors and sheet metal. On an exposed human being it WILL KILL at close ranges. No question about it.

Damn I forgot, my brothers boss lost his brother to a kid that shot him while turkey hunting.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You guys got it all wrong! There is no need to even have the Shotgun loaded. Instead just rack the action and that will make the bad guys shit themselves and run off. Heh I just had to throw that out there cuz it makes me chuckle when I hear that being said. It is a very intimidating sound...I would sure think twice on advancing after hearing it. I like the sound of my A5 magnum loading better . Birdshot up close and nothing more inside a house . I have seen a few people killed with birdshot. BUT U never know how everything will come out in the end of a CQB with birdshot. Some say BS well take the barrel to your head and see. OUT. Tuna

You know, you guys can laugh about this all you want. The fact is in some situations the sound of a shotgun being racked is a deterrent. About 15 years ago I was living in an apartment in a bad part of town. Lots of drunks and druggies around. There was even a stabbing in the apartment next door to mine. One night I heard someone trying to open my door. I grabbed my shotgun, the only gun I owned at the time, and went to check it out. When I looked through the peep hole I could see some drunk guy I didn't recognize trying to open my door. I told him to go away, and that I was armed. He kept saying that this was his place, and "who the f*** are you", "what are you doing in my place." I told him that he had the wrong door and that he needs to leave before I shoot him. He said he didn't believe me when I said I had a gun, so I racked it. That got his attention right away. He immediatly left, and I called the police. The cops showed up about a half hour later(great response time) and found him out back by the dumpster. It turns out this guy did live in my apartment about 6 months before I moved in. He also had warrants out for his arrest for B&E and assault. I believe in this situation racking the slide was the only thing that saved me from having to shoot someone. If I didn't do that, and he managed to get in, I would have shot him. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I can avoid shooting another human being, no matter how much of a scumbag they might be, I call it a good thing. I defended myself succesfully with no bloodshed.
I'm not saying that racking the slide is something you should do in every situation. As allready pointed out by some of you, it is tactically unsound in most situations. What I mean to say is that in certain limited self defense encounters it may work as a deterrent. Actually having a gun is a deterrent in most self defense encounters. I have used a gun to defend myself twice. Both times I didn't fire a shot. In this one, the sound of me racking the slide on my shotgun was enough to convince the guy to go away. In the other, which happened about 10 years ago, all I had to do was draw my pistol and point it at the guys head. That made him back off. He was threatening me with a knife.
Anyway, sorry to go off topic like that, and sorry about the length of my post.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You guys got it all wrong! There is no need to even have the Shotgun loaded. Instead just rack the action and that will make the bad guys shit themselves and run off. Heh I just had to throw that out there cuz it makes me chuckle when I hear that being said. It is a very intimidating sound...I would sure think twice on advancing after hearing it. I like the sound of my A5 magnum loading better . Birdshot up close and nothing more inside a house . I have seen a few people killed with birdshot. BUT U never know how everything will come out in the end of a CQB with birdshot. Some say BS well take the barrel to your head and see. OUT. Tuna You know, you guys can laugh about this all you want. The fact is in some situations the sound of a shotgun being racked is a deterrent. About 15 years ago I was living in an apartment in a bad part of town. Lots of drunks and druggies around. There was even a stabbing in the apartment next door to mine. One night I heard someone trying to open my door. I grabbed my shotgun, the only gun I owned at the time, and went to check it out. When I looked through the peep hole I could see some drunk guy I didn't recognize trying to open my door. I told him to go away, and that I was armed. He kept saying that this was his place, and "who the f*** are you", "what are you doing in my place." I told him that he had the wrong door and that he needs to leave before I shoot him. He said he didn't believe me when I said I had a gun, so I racked it. That got his attention right away. He immediatly left, and I called the police. The cops showed up about a half hour later(great response time) and found him out back by the dumpster. It turns out this guy did live in my apartment about 6 months before I moved in. He also had warrants out for his arrest for B&E and assault. I believe in this situation racking the slide was the only thing that saved me from having to shoot someone. If I didn't do that, and he managed to get in, I would have shot him. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I can avoid shooting another human being, no matter how much of a scumbag they might be, I call it a good thing. I defended myself succesfully with no bloodshed. I'm not saying that racking the slide is something you should do in every situation. As allready pointed out by some of you, it is tactically unsound in most situations. What I mean to say is that in certain limited self defense encounters it may work as a deterrent. Actually having a gun is a deterrent in most self defense encounters. I have used a gun to defend myself twice. Both times I didn't fire a shot. In this one, the sound of me racking the slide on my shotgun was enough to convince the guy to go away. In the other, which happened about 10 years ago, all I had to do was draw my pistol and point it at the guys head. That made him back off. He was threatening me with a knife. Anyway, sorry to go off topic like that, and sorry about the length of my post.

I am not laughing I agree 100%. Have U every heard a A5 Magnum closing the bolt. I get excited everytime I slam the bolt home.

birdshot is for the birds.  I seriously believe that companies should make a self defense shell called "man-shot" for self defense purposes.  My shottie is loaded with bird shot most the time cause i use it for skeet shooting, but if someone goes throgh that door, my 9mm rounds go through him, and that's better than a shottie filled with bird shot anyday.

I disagree.

OK, how about this. Which one of you here that believes birdshot is no good for self defense wants to get shot with it? I'll even let you wear a heavy leather jacket that you say will stop all the shot. I'm not talking about some light target load with little #8 shot either. I'm talking about a full power 2-3/4" or 3" Game load with #2 or larger shot. So who is man enough to prove that birdshot is harmless to anything larger than a goose? I know I sure as shit don't want to get shot with ANYTHING!!! Guess what? Mr. Badguy doesn't want to get shot either, and he doesn't know whether the shotgun your pointing at him is loaded with powder puff target loads or a Magnum slug.
What I'm getting at here is that 98% of the time the loads in your gun, and even what kind of gun you have is irrelavent. Having a gun, any gun, is more important than what you load it with.
I'm sorry I even started this topic. It has clearly gotten out of hand.
To all those who actually tried to help me and offer advice thank you.
To all those who didn't have anything of value to add, thank you too, for reminding me why I don't come to this forum very much.

I agree with 762....

For the benefit out there who really do not know - let me tell you - at close range - ANY birdshot from a shotgun will kill a person - no problem. They will STOP an attacker with nearly a 100% effectiveness rate with one shot to the torso  - clothed or not, better than ANY handgun round
up to and including .44 Mag class

Those of you out there who prefer 00-buck and even slugs from your 12 ga - that's your choice, but to tell the public that birdshot WON'T work under appropriate circumstances are seriously misinformed and/or misinforming.


End of subject.

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