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Part 2: Cleaning Brass For Jackets
As mentioned in the prior post, it is imperative that the .22LR brass that will form jackets be immaculately clean. This goes hand-in-hand with quality control (‘QC’) to ensure the best possible, most accurate bullet. My method of cleaning .22LR brass / jackets is wet tumbling. I use a Harbor Freight dual drum tumbler, which has served me well so far. While this tumbler might be too small for most other tumbling tasks (i.e. cleaning a large enough quantity of .223/5.56 brass), the size of each drum is ideal (IMHO) for the batches of .22LR brass that I process. Wet tumbling involves using stainless steel pins, which when combined with water & citric acid, do a phenomenal job of cleaning brass, including the insides. Since my use of stainless steel pins is (so far) limited to swaging, I bought a relatively small batch of pins – 2 lbs. I use 1 pound of pins in each drum. This smaller quantity of stainless steel pins is available here, among other sources. My source of citric acid is Lemishine – the product typically used in dishwashers. There are other sources, including some where bulk quantities of citric acid can be purchased at a lower overall cost. However, the amount of Lemishine used is very small per batch; I’m perfectly fine paying retail prices for Lemishine at my local store (Target). The process of tumbling is very simple – combine one Crystal Light container full of .22LR brass (about 575 pieces) and one pound of stainless steel pins in one of the Harbor Freight drums. I add just enough hot water to cover these items, then I add a squirt of liquid dish detergent. Then, I add a 9mm case full of Lemishine, and swirl the mixture together for a few moments. You’ll notice a small amount of outgassing as the tarnished brass & citric acid react. I don’t seal the drum for a moment or two if only to ensure that pressure doesn’t build up and break the seal, causing a leak. Once sealed, I tumble this drum for approximately 2 hours (probably longer than necessary, but since this is one part of a batch process and it doesn’t take my hands-on time, its inconsequential. After two hours have passed, it’s time to separate the pins from the brass. I use three things to make this easy. First, a strainer through which the pins can pass but not the .22LR brass. My wife donated a stainless steel strainer that is well suited for this. Second, a plastic pan larger than the strainer but that will still fit into the sink. Third, a magnet (the stainless steel pins are magnetic, and some will surely resist separation). I run hot water through the strainer and into the pan, and begin swirling & hand-mixing the brass to encourage the pins to fall through the strainer. The pan is catching the pins & the water is helping to rinse the dirty solution away. I continue to separate the pins this way until I’m sure they’re almost all in the pan and I’ve got ‘clean’ water. Then, I’ll run the magnet through the strainer picking up any stray pins, or any brass that has been jammed full with several pins. Tip: Over-tumbling leads to the pins filling up & sticking inside the brass. I’ve found that when I tumble for 2 hours or less, this happens infrequently. If I tumble longer, the odds of getting pins stuck in the brass increases significantly (which is QUITE frustrating). Once the pins are separated from the brass, the pins go back into the drum for the next batch; I fill the pan with hot water once again and submerge the strainer & brass in the hot water. I add a pinch of Lemishine to this and ensure it dissolves. I’ve found that so long as the citric acid solution is the last thing the brass touches before it dries, the brass doesn’t tarnish or water spot. When just rinsed with water, my hard water will spot the brass. This has a side benefit of passivating the brass. The wet brass is laid out on a towel and air-dried with the help of a small fan. Because the brass isn’t derimmed yet, this may take longer than anticipated, if only because the water hides within the rim. Once dried, the clean brass is put into a plastic bag along with a sticky note indicating the current state of the brass – “Tumbled” (it’s obvious that it hasn’t been derimmed yet). I find that using sticky notes is an excellent way to stay organized without permanently marking the container. Subsequent batches of tumbled & clean brass can be added to the bag as they’re finished, building up a larger supply in one container. Always ensure they’re dry first! Be sure to stop & admire how shiny the brass is at this point… it will likely look better than new, completely clean and unrecognizable from the tarnished state when you first picked it up off the ground. This same method of tumbling is also used at several other stages of processing: * After derimming (to remove the swaging lube, and to better clean the inside of the brass, which has now been unfolded, revealing additional priming residue). It’s desirable to remove all of the residue from the inside of the brass; residue can cause the brass to stick on the derimming punch, causing unnecessary aggravation. * After annealing (to remove any scaling left behind, and to restore the shine to the now-tarnished brass) I will also wet tumble the brass one more time – once it’s been point formed into a swaged bullet. This isn’t a mandatory step, but the final result looks fantastic! |
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Part 6: Annealing Jackets
Annealing brass is pretty simple. Annealing, which involves heating the brass to about 800 degrees, softens the brass which makes it suitable for point forming & softer so that it will be appropriately engraved by the rifling. Annealing for swaging is different than annealing for reloading in that for swaging, we want the entire piece of brass to get to a uniform temperature. Annealing for reloading entails heating only the case neck, while keeping the area bow the shoulder (particularly the web) unaffected. This is critical so that the part of the brass that withstands the pressure of the cartridge load stays hard & strong. Per the guidance of my die maker, annealing should be done after derimming. Presumably, annealing before derimming will cause the derimming punch to break through the brass more often. Annealing does need to be done before point forming, however. If the brass is too hard when the point is formed, it will fold over & crease, causing a defect. Some that anneal for swaging use a Lee casting pot dedicated to the task. Testing has found that these casting pots heat to the right level. In my case, I’m using a propane burner and a flat toaster oven tray for annealing. I’m covering the tray with aluminum foil and laying out one layer of brass. Then, I’m covering the brass & tray with another layer of foil with some space for air. I poke a thermometer through the top layer of the foil to monitor temperature. Alternatively, I’ve also used a clean pot on the propane burner; others anneal in a BBQ. The method of heating the brass isn’t terribly important, so long as they get hot enough, long enough. Using my method, I’m finding that it typically takes about 20 minutes to heat to 800 degrees. It is important that all of the brass be heated, and it can be difficult to make sure they’re all heated evenly. So, I leave the heat on a little longer, open the foil to move & stir and move the pan around over the heat. When I’m confident that they’ve all been annealed, I dump the brass in cold water. This isn’t necessary to assist in the annealing process; it simply makes the brass able to be handled quicker. A way to check .22LR brass for proper anneal is to pinch the mouth closed. Unannealed brass can’t be pinched closed; annealed brass can be pinched closed with relative ease. One the brass is annealed, it must be cleaned again. I wet tumble, using the stainless steel pin method outline on another page. Be sure to ensure that the brass is completely cleaned of any scale or stains that result from the annealing process. Clearly, there are many ways that brass can be annealed for swaging. So long as it gets hot enough, and all of the brass is annealed, none are ‘wrong’. But, efficiency is important – find a method that doesn’t require you to use a propane torch to heat each piece of brass individually and you’ll be happier. (continued) |
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Part 7: Seating Cores
Core seating actually accomplishes two things – it bonds the jacket to the core, and it expands the size of the bullet to nearly its final size. Again, a special die is used to seat the cores – a core seating die. The clean core is placed into the jacket, and the jacket / core are pushed into the die using a punch. The die is adjusted so that just the right amount of pressure is exerted to accomplish both the bonding and the expansion. Depending on the size of the core (remember, different final bullet weights are possible), the die is adjusted to achieve this pressure at the top of the press stroke. Again, efficiency in process is important. To get the cores in the jacket, one can either manually insert each core into each jacket just before placing them into the die – or – a ‘core shaker’ can be used to drop the cores into the jackets in batches. Others before me created ‘core shakers’ using holes in plexiglass layers to form a tray for the jackets, and through which to drop the jackets heavy end first, and then drop the cores into the jackets. Using my 3D printer (and with permission & encouragement from one of the recent builders of a ‘core shaker’ tray), I designed and printed my own device. This ‘core shaker’ saves a tremendous amount of time over manually placing each core into a jacket. I did a time study and found that I was more than twice as fast using the ‘core shaker’ than I was using the manual method. Here’s a video demonstrating how the core shaker works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDXJ3UMWGQ Once the cores are in the jackets, they’re simply run through the adjusted die. As with the core swaging process, the auto-ejection system and the catch tray add additional efficiency to the process. The auto-ejection system pushes the jacket/core out of the die, and they fall into the tray (rather than onto the floor). After core seating, the jacket/core combination should be .2235? in diameter. This is just under the final desired size of .224? – just right for point forming. |
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Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
WA, USA
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Well done. I'm going to set the toggle to keep this thread out of the archives.
ricklaut, you will always be able to find this thread under My Topics in this forum. eta, toggle set. |
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other. |
Nice job.
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OP,
While I have no interest or desire to make my own bullets, I found your write up well organized, interesting and extremely informative. Thanks for the great write up!!! |
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Thank you for posting this write up.
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You cannot stop it now....it's automatic
CO, USA
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Bullets in a firefight are like candy in kindergarten; bring enough for everyone or you are going be in trouble. - TescoVee
What don't you understand about "...SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." ? |
Very cool.
Seems like Speer started that way |
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You should probably boycott DPMS. PSA till they fix their shipping. Troy until they fire all the JBTs.
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How much did all the equipment cost? Die look like they are $800-1600.
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Wow, great post.
Two questions... -How many do you do at one time? -Now that you have your process somewhat refined, how long does it take you start to finish to make x bullets? |
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GLOCK Armorer
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a Glock 20 at your side, kid.” |
Wow - thx for all the kind words .
@ teeli: Not any time soon :) Two reasons - first, ATF requires licensing / ITAR (crazy, but they do). Even if I wanted to go through all of that, our county won't approve home FFLs. Second, it takes a lot of time, and it would turn from an enjoyable hobby into a job at that point! @ InfiniteGrim: Approx $1,200 + a couple of the other things I didn't already have (i.e. tumbler, picked up the extra press so I could dedicate one to this). @ AJE: I'm running batches of each step. Before I got my dies, I pre-sorted all of my brass (17k) by headstamp (THAT's fun. Not). He shipped the first half of my order (core mold, derim die and core swage die) first. I derimmed all of one headstamp worth of brass (about 2k?), poured about 1500 cores in one setting and swaged about 700 cores to size while I waited. When my final dies arrived, I had everything ready to go, but I didn't feel like I'd over committed just in case I needed to back up and re-do something (unlikely, but perhaps I didn't know what I didn't know). I've found that with core seating / point forming, it's pretty easy to knock out batches of about 300 - 500 of each. Now that I've got the dies locked down, it only takes 3 - 5 min max to change over from one task to another (swap die / punch and remove / replace the auto-eject system). Over the past week, I've already gone back and poured more cores, and am about to derim another batch of brass. On the amount of time... I actually did a time study, keeping notes of how long each step took, and comparing a couple of different ways to do several of the tasks. I'll skip to the final answer... about 85 minutes per hundred, not counting how long it took to sort the brass by headstamp. I'm still pretty new at it, but think I can get that down to about 60 min per hundred without converting to a pneumatic press. Pneumatic presses... guys have started using air to drive the ram, which is particularly useful for derimming, which takes the most force and doesn't require as much 'feel' to know what's happening. If I ever was in a position to get my FFL and try to make these for sale, that would be on the "must" list. ETA: Edited my typo - was typing before I finished my coffee. 85 min per HUNDRED (not thousand...!). |
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Nickname: Doc. Came with wild hair and a DeLorean
OH, USA
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NICE WORK!
Very cool. Makes me wish I had the time to design some equipment for this. |
"We're all new here, kid. The old ones are either dead or in the hospital. What the hell did you expect, a two week pass to Paris? Get in line and do what you're told, or you'll be dead before sunup."
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Terrific job! What Lube is used for forming point?
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NRA Patron member
Never slow down, never grow old! |
ricklaut,
thanks for posting this I have been thinking about this for many years and never made the jump, your write up may be the push that dose it. I've got everything I need except the swagging dies and an extra heavy duty press thanks.
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I live back in the woods ya see my woman the kids and the dogs and me.
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@ Smokey99: Anhydrous lanolin and castor oil is used for all of the processes.
@ Bwehn: For .224, O frame reloading presses work fine. I was going to use my Rockchucker, but its weak point is the slot where the punch slides in. I went with a Lee Classic Cast, which has a threaded ram and strong linkage. So, an extra $125ish if you don't have one already. |
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excellent post
thanks for sharimg. clown |
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1: Awesome how-to and write-up. I have heard about doing this, but haven't seen the individual steps described so completely.
2: You have awesome toys! Between this setup and your 3-d printer, I am extremely jealous. I doubt I'm going to go this route, but I do like doing neat things, even if it doesn't make the most financial sense (I reload a bunch of cal's, even ones I barely shoot because I find reloading fun). |
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Nice! That chicago tumbler is going to fail soon, though. Ask me how I know...
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Do you like BACON?! I made my own...you can, too; it's VERY easy! http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=19&t=629065
How about dry italian pork sausage?! http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=19&t=628430 |
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Very nice! I wish I had the time for this.
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"...while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude" -Alexis de Tocqueville
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My hand is cramped up after all the time I spent on NorCal's crotch - XCRmonger
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any hope for making 308 caliber, say 220gr jacketed?
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Originally Posted By bani:
any hope for making 308 caliber, say 220gr jacketed? View Quote There is... swaging dies for .308 are on my list, but I haven't ordered them yet (for the same reason it took me so long to jump into these - cost & lead time). No plans to get the licensing required to sell, though. |
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BAM! Thanks for a great write up. I should have done the post reservation method for my lead casting one.
My wallet is not thanking you, looks like another grand will be invested in this endeavor. |
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Originally Posted By ricklaut:
Wow - thx for all the kind words . @ teeli: Not any time soon :) Two reasons - first, ATF requires licensing / ITAR (crazy, but they do). Even if I wanted to go through all of that, our county won't approve home FFLs. Second, it takes a lot of time, and it would turn from an enjoyable hobby into a job at that point! @ InfiniteGrim: Approx $1,200 + a couple of the other things I didn't already have (i.e. tumbler, picked up the extra press so I could dedicate one to this). @ AJE: I'm running batches of each step. Before I got my dies, I pre-sorted all of my brass (17k) by headstamp (THAT's fun. Not). He shipped the first half of my order (core mold, derim die and core swage die) first. I derimmed all of one headstamp worth of brass (about 2k?), poured about 1500 cores in one setting and swaged about 700 cores to size while I waited. When my final dies arrived, I had everything ready to go, but I didn't feel like I'd over committed just in case I needed to back up and re-do something (unlikely, but perhaps I didn't know what I didn't know). I've found that with core seating / point forming, it's pretty easy to knock out batches of about 300 - 500 of each. Now that I've got the dies locked down, it only takes 3 - 5 min max to change over from one task to another (swap die / punch and remove / replace the auto-eject system). Over the past week, I've already gone back and poured more cores, and am about to derim another batch of brass. On the amount of time... I actually did a time study, keeping notes of how long each step took, and comparing a couple of different ways to do several of the tasks. I'll skip to the final answer... about 85 minutes per hundred, not counting how long it took to sort the brass by headstamp. I'm still pretty new at it, but think I can get that down to about 60 min per hundred without converting to a pneumatic press. Pneumatic presses... guys have started using air to drive the ram, which is particularly useful for derimming, which takes the most force and doesn't require as much 'feel' to know what's happening. If I ever was in a position to get my FFL and try to make these for sale, that would be on the "must" list. ETA: Edited my typo - was typing before I finished my coffee. 85 min per HUNDRED (not thousand...!). View Quote Great write up! I need to correct you on one thing though. The above statement in red is simply not true. |
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No quarter must be given in the fight to protect our 2A rights!
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Nicely done.
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Need 300 BLK or 5.56 brass?
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Spectre-Precision/491585817615259 www.SpectrePrecision.com |
I need to correct you on one thing though. The above statement in red is simply not true. View Quote Hmm... Clark County, NV - If you're in the unincorporated parts of the county (I am) or in the City of Las Vegas, all of the research I've done says they won't approve a business license for a home FFL (city of Henderson will - but I'm not moving to do it). ATF won't bless the FFL unless you're in compliance with local laws... There are a few home-based FFLs in the area that are grandfathered from before the county changed their zoning laws - but no new ones. If you know otherwise, please let me know - I'm interested. |
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Originally Posted By ricklaut:
There is... swaging dies for .308 are on my list, but I haven't ordered them yet (for the same reason it took me so long to jump into these - cost & lead time). No plans to get the licensing required to sell, though. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By ricklaut:
Originally Posted By bani:
any hope for making 308 caliber, say 220gr jacketed? There is... swaging dies for .308 are on my list, but I haven't ordered them yet (for the same reason it took me so long to jump into these - cost & lead time). No plans to get the licensing required to sell, though. if you use 22lr brass for 224 bullet jackets, what's the host brass used for 308 bullet jackets? also, i see people using lead wire for cores instead of casting their own. any downsides other than cost? |
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Excellent thread!
Thanks for posting! |
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Any problems with difficult to remove fouling with the rimfire jackets?
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Originally Posted By bani:
if you use 22lr brass for 224 bullet jackets, what's the host brass used for 308 bullet jackets? also, i see people using lead wire for cores instead of casting their own. any downsides other than cost? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By bani:
Originally Posted By ricklaut:
Originally Posted By bani:
any hope for making 308 caliber, say 220gr jacketed? There is... swaging dies for .308 are on my list, but I haven't ordered them yet (for the same reason it took me so long to jump into these - cost & lead time). No plans to get the licensing required to sell, though. if you use 22lr brass for 224 bullet jackets, what's the host brass used for 308 bullet jackets? also, i see people using lead wire for cores instead of casting their own. any downsides other than cost? Looks like FN5.7 brass or 5/16" copper tubing jackets BT Sniper 308 Dies |
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@ bani: As Erizzo pointed out, 5.7, copper tubing and (IIRC) I saw someone using 9mm and .30 Carbine. Lead wire works fine too, but unless you extrude it yourself from soft lead, you're dependent on a supplier.
@ MonkTX: No issues with fouling that I've read of, and in my (so far) limited experience I've had no issues. I may have the opportunity to send about 500 of them (or about $54 worth (10.7 cents each - primer & powder cost) ) down range tomorrow, so I'll have a better feel. |
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Originally Posted By ricklaut:
Hmm... Clark County, NV - If you're in the unincorporated parts of the county (I am) or in the City of Las Vegas, all of the research I've done says they won't approve a business license for a home FFL (city of Henderson will - but I'm not moving to do it). ATF won't bless the FFL unless you're in compliance with local laws... There are a few home-based FFLs in the area that are grandfathered from before the county changed their zoning laws - but no new ones. If you know otherwise, please let me know - I'm interested. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By ricklaut:
I need to correct you on one thing though. The above statement in red is simply not true. Hmm... Clark County, NV - If you're in the unincorporated parts of the county (I am) or in the City of Las Vegas, all of the research I've done says they won't approve a business license for a home FFL (city of Henderson will - but I'm not moving to do it). ATF won't bless the FFL unless you're in compliance with local laws... There are a few home-based FFLs in the area that are grandfathered from before the county changed their zoning laws - but no new ones. If you know otherwise, please let me know - I'm interested. Sorry man. I misread county as country. I am at fault for not reading properly. You have my apologies. |
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No quarter must be given in the fight to protect our 2A rights!
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Great writeup and pics. I always wondered about the process of forming jackets from 22LR brass but i did not realize the dies were that expensive.
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Very Nice to know this is possible. I read a little about it a few months ago, but this thread is very easy to understand.
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Situations which have not been covered in this code of conduct may arise.........In the alpaca thread.
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Can you do a write up on how you converted the classic cast over for bullet swaging? I have a set of Larry Blackmons dies to make 116gr 308 bullets for my benchrest rifle but I haven't touched them since I received them.
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Originally Posted By andre3k:
Can you do a write up on how you converted the classic cast over for bullet swaging? I have a set of Larry Blackmons dies to make 116gr 308 bullets for my benchrest rifle but I haven't touched them since I received them. View Quote I wouldnt call it a conversion. You unscrew the top of the ram and bolt on BT Snipers kit. Takes 2 minutes. BT Sniper 22 KIT |
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Originally Posted By ERizzo:
I wouldnt call it a conversion. You unscrew the top of the ram and bolt on BT Snipers kit. Takes 2 minutes. BT Sniper 22 KIT http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/pressupgrade002.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By ERizzo:
Originally Posted By andre3k:
Can you do a write up on how you converted the classic cast over for bullet swaging? I have a set of Larry Blackmons dies to make 116gr 308 bullets for my benchrest rifle but I haven't touched them since I received them. I wouldnt call it a conversion. You unscrew the top of the ram and bolt on BT Snipers kit. Takes 2 minutes. BT Sniper 22 KIT http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/pressupgrade002.jpg Yup - that's it - very simple & effective. Another reason I like the Classic Cast is because I can change the angle of the arm... For everything but derimming, I have it up similar to how it's shown in ERizzo's pic; for derimming (which takes quite a bit more force and less 'feel'), I have the handle angled down, so that when the rim is being unfolded, I'm leaning down into it, not pulling. BT Sniper also makes an ejection kit like this for the RCBS RockChucker, and he makes punches for their slotted ram. |
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What do you figure your return on investment is? In number of bullets that is.
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No quarter must be given in the fight to protect our 2A rights!
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I live back in the woods ya see my woman the kids and the dogs and me.
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Great write up
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Originally Posted By bwehn:
My guess would be about 18-21,000 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By bwehn:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
What do you figure your return on investment is? In number of bullets that is. I was thinking more than that. Figuring the cost of buying bullets vs the cost of the equipment to make your own + materials. Brass is free, but lead MAY not be. Figuring $100 per K to buy bullets. Equipment being $1200. There is 12k worth of bullets just in equipment cost. Even if you could make 100 bullets per hour, that is 10 hours per 1,000 bullets. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade. The bullets look fantastic! It just seems that a guy would need to have a lot of free time to make them all and make it a worthwhile endeavor for even himself. I would like to see a side by side comparison of accuracy between these and your everyday 55gr fmj like Hornady, Sierra, Armscor, etc. |
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No quarter must be given in the fight to protect our 2A rights!
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Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
What do you figure your return on investment is? In number of bullets that is. View Quote You wont come out ahead. This is a labor of love and or just being able to make your own whatever and whenever you want. Its either stock up 18,000 bullets or custom make them at your leisure. Or, maybe its about being able to make therm when others cant even buy them. |
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