hypothetical: Let’s say you have $14k or so to spend on a registered MG... which one and why?

”Get both”, or RDIAS, or M16 RR is not an option!!!
This thread is for poor people. Go be rich somewhere else.

Shop around for a RLL ($14,000)

or

SWD M-11/9 ($7500)
Lage M-11/22 OEM 22LR Kit ($600)
Lage Max-11 mk2 Upper ($800)
Lage Max-31 mk2 Drum Upper ($900)
Lage Max-11/15 5.56mm Upper ($3000)
Couple dozen mags and some drums ($700)
Total: ($13500)

Don't you already have an M11?

Maybe you sold it, but you've already been down that road.

Yeah, I know all about Macs and Lage stuff, but I don’t know anything about RLLs. I think my biggest concerns would be Reliability and Durability.

Macs are 33+ years old, and I have no doubt they’ll last the next 30+ years even with frequent use.

It RLL?
No idea. They don’t look to terribly tough.

That's my understanding, and why I'm voting for the MAC/Lage. It used to be a bit tougher because it was a rifle caliber FA vs a SMG, but with Lage soon (or already?) releasing their 5.56 upper for the MAC platform, you can get rifle and SMG uses out of the same lower.

The M16 platform makes a great first MG as you already know how to service it, probably have a safe full of uppers to use with it, boxes full of spare parts, can shoot 22lr, 9mm, 556, 300 BO, and a host of other custom rounds. Everyone from gun nuts to new shooters can pick up a M16/AR15 platform and be shooting safe and accurately with minimal effort. With that said unless you know of a RLL specifically for sale for $14k I would be surprised if you got one that cheap, I would assume more in the $15-16k range.

A mac used to be the poor man's MG. They could be had for a couple grand and you could shoot dirt cheap 9mm. It was the MG people bought when then couldn't afford a "real" MG but wanted something full auto to play with. Lage and other manufacturers took a terrble open bolt submachine gun that was arguably dangerous to shoot and turned it into a safer, more reliable MG, be it still open bolt. They offer top notch machined and finished after market parts that have brought the Mac family of MGs into the 21st century. Unfortunately, it all comes at a price. As you have noticed its hard to find a M11 for under $7-8k these days and you you can easily be in for $10-15k by time you pick up a few Lage uppers, steel mags, optics, upgraded internal parts, folding stocks, gunsmith work, etc... before you know it an M11 setup is within a couple grand of a RLL.

I own a M16 RR and a M11 with Max11K upper. I started with the M16 thinking it would be my only MG and wanted one that could do it all. I picked up the M11 on an impulse a few years later. I had saved money for a Fightlite MCR beltfed upper and just happened to see an email from Frank, he had a batch of M11s he was moving at below market price. I bought it more as an investment piece, but have to admit I do rather enjoy having a dedicated subgun. I shoot it primarily suppressed with 147gr subsonic ammo.

EDIT: If I ever had to sell a MG for some reason the M11 would be the first to go.

Well, I suppose it’s not too surprising that the Lage subgun is better at being a subgun than a 9mm AR and the full auto AR with RLL is better at being an assault rifle than a 5.56 M11... but nowadays, either can do the task of the other relatively decently.

Like you say, even 2 years ago it was a an easy choice. Now, it’s a tough choice.

Easy choice for me, I would take a lightning link and a stable of AR15s over an M11/9.

I have two links and an M11/9 and if forced to sell the M11 would go long before either of the links would.

The M16 in my mind is still king of the hill in terms of platform flexibility. While the M11 is much improved with all of the different Lage uppers out now, if somebody asked me if I prefer the M16 or the M11, its a no-brainer to take the M16 over the M11.

The RLL also comes with the versatility of being able to move easily between hosts as well as use modern lowers and has a couple belt fed options.  The only real downside is no 22LR kit currently is sold that works with the RLL.

Just my two cents anyway.

Link to the mac? I'll send ya a closet full of coat hangers for the info

To me this is an "apples and oranges" type of question. With the LL you must come up with $15,000 (I have not seen a LL listed under $15,000 in quite a while) up front.  The market value of the M11/NINE is half that of the LL. The caliber changes are much less for the LL. If a buyer has the funds upfront for the LL, to me it is a no brainer, buy the LL.

As far as longevity, once the host ARs are set up and a KNS LL Protector is used on the LL, the link should last forever. As far as pistol calibers for the AR, CMMG has the rotary delayed blowback system. It is very smooth. Since the LL is the machinegun, a .45 or .40 S&W lower can be used as CMMG now has all three calibers available. I really like the 9mm upper with Endomag incerts. No need for magwell adapter in a standard magwell AR.  Don't get me wrong, I think Lage makes great products, but if it was me and I had $15,000, I would choose the LL any day, and twice on Sunday. But if I only had half that, then the only modular option under $15,000 is a Mac style RR.  YMMV.

Scott

Before Lage and the 11/15, it was a different story and an easier answer. If an M16, RR or RDIAS weren’t in the cards,  the RLL was the only ticket to auto 5.56 (aside from a Ruger).

Now, the 11/15 gives you a reliable, smooth shooting rifle caliber with the robustness of the Mac RR. No need for trigger work, relief-cut lowers, milled bolts, SP1 BCGs, timing, tabs, KNS protectors or the need for a RLL-guru on hand should something happen to that flimsy $12k+ piece of metal. The last thing I want to worry about while ripping through a 30-150 round string is whether or not the thing is going to hold up.

The MacRR gives you the same capability with better 9mm options, not to mention Richard’s superb CS and continued innovation. My guess is a dedicated belt-fed upper will be in the works in the next five years from him.

Of course, my .02, YMMV, IMO, IMHO, IMNSHO, FWIW, WWJD, WWSD, FUBU, YOLO, JAT, etc...

I'd say your M11 price is a little low. 8K will probably be closer to the price.

I seen where Ruben put 3 of the Reg LL with the KNS protectors on all the various boards. How does the KNS protector work?

Never mind found the pics on the KNS web site.

Damn, this poll is closer than I would have thought.
Now I’m having second thoughts. I thought RLL was the clear choice.

The MAC setup is not for sale publicly.

I’ve RLL and multiple M11.
I would say pony up the dough and get RR.

@coolhand

Why the $20k+ RR over a $14k LL... what’s the 43% higher price getting me?

Serious question, as I’ve never handled/shot either.  It from what I gather, the LL has its own advantages:
A KB from OOB timing issue,m or even just bad luck with ammo issue can really mess up a RR. DIAS and LL don’t usually suffer from damage in a KB.

Also I can drop a LL in just about any modern receiver. Most of the RR out there are A1 style and fit/finish is whatever you happen to get.

Yes there’s the durability issue, but doesn’t a KNS Protector with proper timing essentially mean a LL should last forever?

I also have a couple registered receivers M16 receivers in addition to a couple of RLLs.

They both have their pros and cons.


Lighting Link:

Pros:

- You can use more modern receivers or dedicated receivers.  (Modern Profile, Ambi, SAW box for Shrike, 45ACP, Glock Mag, AK lower,  etc.)
- A significant kaboom type event the link will survive, where a RR will usually experience more damage.
- Long term receiver wear can be mitigated by just replacing the lower.
- They will work in certain 308 lowers like the LE901  (*not making this a debate about legality)

Cons:

- Outside of a kaboom type of event the link is more easily damaged if not set up properly.  (I have owned one of my links for 10+ years and with the proper protections in place it still looks like new)
- They are easier to drop and lose than a M16 receiver.  (but not as easy to drop and lose as a DIAS as the hammer will hold them inside the lower should prying eyes open decide to take it upon themselves to take your gun apart out of curiosity - yes this happens)
- No 22 kit option and the AM15 upper won't work with them either.
- Requires modification to lower to get them properly releived
- Requires modification to the bolt carrier to SP1 spec.
- Certain AR platform guns that have proprietary/shortened bolt carriers (like the Honeybadger, OA93, etc.) would need significant "creativity" to work with a link.

Registered Receiver:

Pros:

- They usually just work with minimal fuss or intervention.
- No need to mill lowers or bolt carriers.
- No proprietary or hard to get parts.
- 22 kit options

Cons

- You are stuck with a 35 year old lower.
- No option for modern or updated lowers.
- In certain aspects are more easily damaged.  (magwell kaboom, broken trigger guard ears, damaged LRBHO slot or pin ears, cracked buffer ring tube, etc.)
- More difficult to repair if damaged than a RLL due to be made out of aluminum that is difficult to weld or find folks willing to do that work.

(On a RLL you are usually just welding the ear back on and the RLL is steel.   I have never seen a link break anywhere but the ear area and they all seem to get repaired successfully.   RR damage requires somebody good with welding aluminum, damage around the magwell on a kaboom involves the serial number area.  Cosmetically your lower will probably never be right as you are going to at a minimum have to paint it to cover up the repair area)

As somebody who has an M11, two links, and two M16 receivers and many years of experience with all of them this is my personal assessment.

If you just want the best bang for the buck, are not mechanically inclined and want to just order bolt on parts from Lage, and don’t really care about the aesthetics or that folks are going to potentially look at your $10K frankenmac asking WTFIT, than the M11 may be the best option.

If you want a “factory” configured M16 that uses all M16 replacement parts you can order to your doorstep from Brownells, require almost no knowledge and limited tools to do repairs at home, shoot high quality ammo to mitigate potential damage, you have no interest in tinkering & setting up RLL hosts, caliber conversions, etc. and in general just want a full auto 5.56 M4 than a RR is probably your best bet.

However, if you want the aesthetics and recognition of an M16 (since 99.9% of the world just sees it as an M16), but more configuration flexibility than a RR provides, and have the time/patience/skillset to put together a bunch of RLL hosts, and be able to shoot the cheapest/shittiest ammo with impunity, than a link may fit your needs/wants the best.

DIASs take all the benefits of the link,  remove a significant portion of the custom configuration/setup requirements (using factory M16 parts), provides an aura additional durability,  albeit at the additional tax of moving the DIAS from lower to lower as its more of a pain as the FCG has to come out and migrate with the sear to the new host lower.

There is no right or wrong answer.   You have to ask yourself what is your use case and what aspects are more important to you.

I agree with jbntex, there is no right or wrong answer.

Its a combination of factors including personal preference, whats in your existing collection, your budget, aesthetics, durability, reliability, caliber selection, after market support, etc...

Maybe its me but I feel like there is some pride that goes along with owning an aesthetically pleasing modern military firearm like the M16 you just dont get from a Mac.  Maybe its because Ive dreamed of owning one since I was a kid. Don't get me wrong, the Lage 9mm uppers look nice, but I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling when I look at those hideous Mac rifle conversions we have seen lately. That Tenko conversion looks like it was made in someone's basement with crude hand tools.

I only own sub guns.  I bought my M/11 last because it was cheap and stupid fun to shoot stock.  Then Lage came along.  I have a Max11/15, holy smokes is it fun to shoot.   If I still want to shoot 9mm, I can do it with the lage upper, Uzi, or MP40.  Now I can shoot .223 from my M/11!   Go with the m/11.

I have M11/9 with everything lage, an RR, and just got an RLL.

Shooting 9mm is great but honestly I have more fun shooting 556. The max 11/15 is great from what I've seen and I would have gotten one if I didn't have the RR.

I wanted the RLL for the reasons previously listed. I have 2 lowers cut for the RLL and the KNS protector. There really isnt much worry about breaking it and I dont have to worry about scratching the lower like I do my RR.

Losing .22 isnt "that big of a deal" and you can shoot 9mm and 45 from the AR platforms.

Cutting BCGs and relief work is a little annoying but once it is done you are all set. I've documented all the necessary cuts as well and any gunsmith can do them.

So my vote is RLL