changing my tune on red dot vs LPVO

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Posted: 9/11/2018 12:36:58 PM EDT

I've always been a big believer in red dot for anything in a self defense/HD/zombie gun, and LPVO for anything you would use for 100-400 yards or so. I'm reconsidering that currently. To my, my HD/bug out rifle is the one that I'll grab if the alarm goes off, looters roll in, etc. But this weekend I had my fold up 300BO SBR with Primary Arms micro dot in a bag for a weekend trip to a lake cabin. There was a deer about 110 yards out, and with the dot there was no way for me to determine if I was holding over vitals or a shoulder, let alone the neck shot everyone claims to make on this site. Since the doe was not a threat I was just looking, but made me really consider switching over to a variable.

I'm thinking I would like to be able to see someone's hands or distinguish what they are holding. It also seems like I would have a better chance at IDing a target if needed.

anyone else come to the same conclusion?

Coming up with a pros/cons list the major cons I see are weight, and price. Am I missing anything? I already own a Trijicon tr24, but would have to pull it off my 3 gun rifle, thus admitting to myself I don't really compete anymore

Posted: 9/11/2018 12:47:36 PM EDT

[#1]

The TR24 is the ultimate go bag optic. Light weight, very durable and it does not require batteries

Posted: 9/11/2018 1:05:51 PM EDT

[#2]

TA33, best of all worlds.

Posted: 9/11/2018 2:54:56 PM EDT

[#3]

I take heavily into consideration what would constitute justification of lethal force.

Posted: 9/11/2018 3:14:59 PM EDT

[#4]

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Quoted:
I take heavily into consideration what would constitute justification of lethal force.

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What he said.

If you are that far away, you are not justified.
Stay with the red dot.

Posted: 9/11/2018 3:25:25 PM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:
What he said.

If you are that far away, you are not justified.
Stay with the red dot.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I take heavily into consideration what would constitute justification of lethal force.

What he said.

If you are that far away, you are not justified.
Stay with the red dot.

Pretty sure he's plenty justified to shoot a deer at 110 yards.

Posted: 9/11/2018 3:26:55 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
I take heavily into consideration what would constitute justification of lethal force.

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Never mind that the OP was talking about hunting, I can think of all sorts of scenarios that lethal force would be justified at long range in TX.

Posted: 9/11/2018 3:57:20 PM EDT

[#7]

Vote: stay w/ dot.
6” MPBR zero to bottom of the dot using lower edge of silhouette target. Flip up rear peep (I prefer the night peep) for traditional markensmanship shooting (vs reflex shooting) to assist dot clarity.
Gtg

Posted: 9/11/2018 4:15:47 PM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:
Pretty sure he's plenty justified to shoot a deer at 110 yards.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I take heavily into consideration what would constitute justification of lethal force.

What he said.

If you are that far away, you are not justified.
Stay with the red dot.

Pretty sure he's plenty justified to shoot a deer at 110 yards.

“I've always been a big believer in red dot for anything in a self defense/HD/zombie gun, and LPVO for anything you would use for 100-400 yards or so. I'm reconsidering that currently. To my, my HD/bug out rifle is the one that I'll grab if the alarm goes off, looters roll in, etc.

I'm thinking I would like to be able to see someone's hands or distinguish what they are holding. It also seems like I would have a better chance at IDing a target if needed.

Really? Sounds to me like an HD use to me unless he wants it to use it in various ways but for HD I prefer a RDS.

Posted: 9/11/2018 4:35:24 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Coming up with a pros/cons list the major cons I see are weight, and price. Am I missing anything?

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battery life

Posted: 9/11/2018 4:42:35 PM EDT

[#10]

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Quoted:

Really? Sounds to me like an HD use to me unless he wants it to use it in various ways but for HD I prefer a RDS.

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Really? Sounds to me like an HD use to me unless he wants it to use it in various ways but for HD I prefer a RDS.

There was a deer about 110 yards out, and with the dot there was no way for me to determine if I was holding over vitals or a shoulder, let alone the neck shot everyone claims to make on this site

Posted: 9/11/2018 7:20:23 PM EDT

[#11]

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I'm talking about all used of a bug out/HD/hurricane is coming, evacuate now kind of rifle. I want fewer things overall. And I want to grab only one thing, pretty much no matter the situation. The deer was just the first chance I got to even put a dot/crosshairs on a non-paper target in the last year or so. It was eye opening to me that if it was a person, I wouldn't have been able to tell if it was a cell phone or Glock 19 in their hand.

yes it's texas, there is some wide open space. and pointing a handgun at me at 100 yards would be justified for lethal force.

I also don't want to fail at target identifying like a police officer has been in the news for around here recently.

Posted: 9/11/2018 7:31:41 PM EDT

[#12]

TA33 is the ultimate general purpose scope available today.

Posted: 9/11/2018 8:18:56 PM EDT

[#13]

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Quoted:
TA33 is the ultimate general purpose scope available today.

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while I disagree, I am curious how many times you'll try and sneak it into the thread...

Posted: 9/11/2018 8:29:06 PM EDT

[#14]

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Quoted:
while I disagree, I am curious how many times you'll try and sneak it into the thread...

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Quoted:

Quoted:
TA33 is the ultimate general purpose scope available today.

while I disagree, I am curious how many times you'll try and sneak it into the thread...

One more.

Seriously though, no magnification lever to mess with, generous eyebox and eye relief, not enough magnification to impede speed up close but enough for decent use out to medium range. The Leupold D-EVO concept is better, but for now the form factor is a bit lacking.

Posted: 9/11/2018 8:29:10 PM EDT

[#15]

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while I disagree, I am curious how many times you'll try and sneak i

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IMO, the 4x ACOGs are better than the TA33.

Posted: 9/11/2018 8:33:43 PM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:
IMO, the 4x ACOGs are better than the TA33.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

while I disagree, I am curious how many times you'll try and sneak i

IMO, the 4x ACOGs are better than the TA33.

Limited eye relief and narrow eyebox make them a little more difficult to use up close in my opinion. The wider field of view does make it better at range though.

Posted: 9/11/2018 8:44:46 PM EDT

[#17]

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Quoted:
Limited eye relief and narrow eyebox make them a little more difficult to use up close in my opinion. The wider field of view does make it better at range though.

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The eye relief isn't really a huge concern for me, even though I'm short. The main reason I like them a lot better is the field of view. When I had my TA33, I kept it for as long as I could, but damn, that field of view just bothered me too much.

Posted: 9/11/2018 8:45:03 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
Limited eye relief and narrow eyebox make them a little more difficult to use up close in my opinion. The wider field of view does make it better at range though.

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That’s why the TA11 is better than the 33 or the 31!

Posted: 9/11/2018 8:53:58 PM EDT

[#19]

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Quoted:

while I disagree, I am curious how many times you'll try and sneak it into the thread...

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I honestly wish these threads would stop happening so I can snag a 33 on the EE.

Posted: 9/11/2018 9:55:47 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
What he said.

If you are that far away, you are not justified.
Stay with the red dot.

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View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I take heavily into consideration what would constitute justification of lethal force.

What he said.

If you are that far away, you are not justified.
Stay with the red dot.

I'm in this camp

Posted: 9/11/2018 9:57:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
That’s why the TA11 is better than the 33 or the 31!

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Limited eye relief and narrow eyebox make them a little more difficult to use up close in my opinion. The wider field of view does make it better at range though.

That’s why the TA11 is better than the 33 or the 31!

At a cost to weight. I had one and dumped it

Posted: 9/11/2018 10:30:51 PM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:
IMO, the 4x ACOGs are better than the TA33.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

while I disagree, I am curious how many times you'll try and sneak i

IMO, the 4x ACOGs are better than the TA33.

No, it's a fact. The 4X ACOGs are the best ones.

Posted: 9/12/2018 12:27:16 AM EDT

[#23]

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Quoted:

I honestly wish these threads would stop happening so I can snag a 33 on the EE.

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hehe, I snagged one for 650 in like new condition. Someone around here has it now, I don't doubt they'll show up here.

Posted: 9/12/2018 12:29:35 AM EDT

[#24]

for a true SHTF you can't beat trit/fiber.
All batteries passively self discharge in storage, without battery manufacturers all batteries are going to be dead are going to decay within approximately 10 years or so due to shelf life.

One of the trit/fiber LPVs would be a great shtf choice.
If you're a bit more richblooded an ACOG with offset/piggyback RMR would also be cool.

Posted: 9/12/2018 1:20:17 AM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
for a true SHTF you can't beat trit/fiber.
All batteries passively self discharge in storage, without battery manufacturers all batteries are going to be dead are going to decay within approximately 10 years or so due to shelf life.

One of the trit/fiber LPVs would be a great shtf choice.
If you're a bit more richblooded an ACOG with offset/piggyback RMR would also be cool.

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True SHTF I don’t think 8 years in you’re thinking about how grateful you are to have tritium. Realistically I think weight, proficiency, and quality are going to get you started well before worrying about your Aimpoint shutting off in three years

Posted: 9/12/2018 9:33:41 AM EDT

[#26]

I've been in Cartel ravaged parts of Mexico and still found CR2032s and lithium AAs and AAAs. CR123s are scarce down there. I'm not worried about battery availability in SHTF.

Posted: 9/12/2018 11:45:22 AM EDT

[#27]

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Quoted:

True SHTF I don’t think 8 years in you’re thinking about how grateful you are to have tritium. Realistically I think weight, proficiency, and quality are going to get you started well before worrying about your Aimpoint shutting off in three years

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In thinking about battery life and this train of thought: if you have a LPVO with an etched reticle then without batteries you still have a reticle. If my red dot optic has a dead battery then i'm looking for another battery or i'm switching to irons.
If a Vortex Razor 1-6 runs out of battery I still have a completely functional scope, minus a feature.
I'm not saying one is better than the other for SHTF, just pointing out a difference.

Posted: 9/12/2018 12:11:35 PM EDT

[#28]

If you survive 3/5/10 years into a period where things are so bad you cannot find batteries, you will have other, larger problems than accurately shooting a rifle.

Posted: 9/12/2018 12:41:06 PM EDT

[#29]

sorry all, for me when I say SHTF in this context I'm talking about shorter term. Like a home invader, a coyote stole my child, I'm leaving the house for a hurricane. I'm leaning towards something like my TR24 since it works as a red dot and can zoom like a scope. I don't love the fixed magnification like 3 or 4x. I have tried the "near 1x" like a 1.5 trijicon and I was honestly slower than I was without, it messes my brain up.

I'm thinking what I'm leaning towards doing is a Mini recci? is that right? something under 16" barrel so it's handy but with a 1-x on it so I can zoom if needed. is that the right terminology?

Posted: 9/12/2018 1:38:53 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you survive 3/5/10 years into a period where things are so bad you cannot find batteries, you will have other, larger problems than accurately shooting a rifle.

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I'll use a short barrelled shotgun in a leg holster when I'm out with the Lord Humungous scouting for guzzoline.

Posted: 9/12/2018 1:56:11 PM EDT

[#31]

I vote TR24. I have a primary arms red dot, but I question how accurate I can be with astigmatism and no glasses. If I had the money I'd get TR24.

Posted: 9/12/2018 3:00:46 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
sorry all, for me when I say SHTF in this context I'm talking about shorter term. Like a home invader, a coyote stole my child, I'm leaving the house for a hurricane. I'm leaning towards something like my TR24 since it works as a red dot and can zoom like a scope. I don't love the fixed magnification like 3 or 4x. I have tried the "near 1x" like a 1.5 trijicon and I was honestly slower than I was without, it messes my brain up.

I'm thinking what I'm leaning towards doing is a Mini recci? is that right? something under 16" barrel so it's handy but with a 1-x on it so I can zoom if needed. is that the right terminology?

View Quote

IMO the best setup is two rifles or uppers. A red dot rifle for house clearing and lawn defense (my personal lawn is only about 75 yards long at the longest point) so if you have 1-200 yards from your lawn maybe red dot just for building clearing. A LPVO for going anywhere use (hiking with a rifle or whatever). You could always combine the two into one setup with an offset mini red dot sight too. I am going to try the ACOG/RMR setup it shows up tomorrow. I'm hoping it'll be happy compromise between weight and having a red dot and 4x capability

Posted: 9/12/2018 3:05:54 PM EDT

[#33]

Target engagement liability and target identification are two different things.

Even if I were not justified in shooting a man at 100 yards, being able to see what is in his hands, or see him at all if he's using some concealment, justifies the magnification.

Posted: 9/12/2018 3:32:07 PM EDT

[#34]

Or just run a 3x-6x magnifier with a fts mount. I use a Vortex UH-1 with a G33 and couldn't be happier.

Posted: 9/12/2018 5:50:38 PM EDT

[#35]

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Or just run a 3x-6x magnifier with a fts mount. I use a Vortex UH-1 with a G33 and couldn't be happier.

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Pics? That's a combo I haven't heard people talk about much, but given the reticle design, seems reasonable. Kinda heavy though, eh?

Posted: 9/12/2018 7:30:48 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'll use a short barrelled shotgun in a leg holster when I'm out with the Lord Humungous scouting for guzzoline.

View Quote

Posted: 9/12/2018 10:32:56 PM EDT

[#37]

Not terribly heavy,23 oz. Less than a Razor 1-6 with a mount. Magnifier can be removed for HD and thrown on for longer shots etc. Since Photobucket went down I don't know how to upload pics.

Posted: 9/12/2018 10:50:43 PM EDT

[#38]

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Quoted: Since Photobucket went down I don't know how to upload pics.

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Same way as before, just need another host. Try imgur.com

Posted: 9/12/2018 10:59:25 PM EDT

[#39]

I prefer lpvo with a Battery illuminated reticle over red dots and tritium for my go to rifles.

With regards to Battery life the lvpo doesn’t require batteries to function. Plus a red dot on a medium setting to achieve a 50k Battery life gets washed out indoors when you activate a weapons light. Lvpo do not have a bluish tint on the lenses. This makes shooting at low light easier. With regards to parallax and awkward shooting postions. Watch the sage dynamics video. Inside of a 100 yards it’s not that much off.

When it comes to batteries vs tritium. Batteries have a shelf life 10 years. Tritium has a half life of 12 years. So if a major long term event happens tomorrow I have 10 years of Battery in theory. A tr24 tr33 tr31 will have about 12 years that is of the optic was purchased the day before and was manufactured a few months prior. Now if the that optic sat on the shelf for a year and was purchased 5 years ago the tritium life is shorter. What happens if your acog is at Trijicon getting the tritium replaced when you need it. The one thing acog is still king of is durability well next to iron sights that is.

I just like that I can shoot upclose as fast as a red dot and throw a lever and shoot accurately at distance if needed. Plus the field of view is better than a red dot as has a better reticle

Posted: 9/12/2018 11:09:15 PM EDT

[#40]

EXPS-3 for me. doesn't have the astigmatism issues that the T-1/2 give me, and I can still passively aim through the sight with a PVS14. If I need magnification, Ill add a magnifier behind it, but my priority with all optics for the last 5 years has been compatibility with my NV.

Posted: 9/12/2018 11:12:40 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Not terribly heavy,23 oz. Less than a Razor 1-6 with a mount. Magnifier can be removed for HD and thrown on for longer shots etc. Since Photobucket went down I don't know how to upload pics.

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Right around what most LPVOs weigh in a mount too. I liked my Eotech + G33 setup which came out to be only 22 oz, but I found myself wanting holdover markers.

Posted: 9/13/2018 12:00:32 AM EDT

[#42]

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Pics? That's a combo I haven't heard people talk about much, but given the reticle design, seems reasonable. Kinda heavy though, eh?

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http://imgur.com/gallery/Clky0IA

http://imgur.com/gallery/28n8yMc

http://imgur.com/gallery/5KvOziT

http://imgur.com/gallery/GIT2Ds5

Posted: 9/13/2018 12:13:15 AM EDT

[#43]

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Right around what most LPVOs weigh in a mount too. I liked my Eotech + G33 setup which came out to be only 22 oz, but I found myself wanting holdover markers.

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I think the Leupold D-EVO is the best solution to the problem in that regard. Not having to move your head,adjust cheekweld,or rotate a power ring are all positives.

Posted: 9/13/2018 12:45:04 AM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
Right around what most LPVOs weigh in a mount too. I liked my Eotech + G33 setup which came out to be only 22 oz, but I found myself wanting holdover markers.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Not terribly heavy,23 oz. Less than a Razor 1-6 with a mount. Magnifier can be removed for HD and thrown on for longer shots etc. Since Photobucket went down I don't know how to upload pics.

Right around what most LPVOs weigh in a mount too. I liked my Eotech + G33 setup which came out to be only 22 oz, but I found myself wanting holdover markers.

the EXPS3-2 and -4 have holdover markers. Personally Im buying a 3-2 next for my 300blk build, the separation between the two dots is the same distance as the one marketed towards 300blk. Getting the 3-2 for the NV compatibility.

Posted: 9/13/2018 1:37:59 AM EDT

[#45]

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I think the Leupold D-EVO is the best solution to the problem in that regard. Not having to move your head,adjust cheekweld,or rotate a power ring are all positives.

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I've always want to try a D-EVO.
Just not willing to take the risk for that price...

Posted: 9/13/2018 2:45:11 AM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:

I think the Leupold D-EVO is the best solution to the problem in that regard. Not having to move your head,adjust cheekweld,or rotate a power ring are all positives.

View Quote

The D-Evo reminds me of the G36 dual optic. They both allow having a scope and a full sized red dot.
I'm wondering if Leupold is thinking about making a dual optic type thing with the devo and a red dot.

Posted: 9/13/2018 3:04:14 AM EDT

[#47]

I had my eyes adjusted to 20/15 with LASIK. I mean my eyes are damn good. That is the best $3k I ever spent.

I can see so well that for any self defense purpose I cannot imagine needing any magnification at all.

Posted: 9/13/2018 5:32:41 AM EDT

[#48]

I like my Vortex Razor 1x6.

On 1x with the illuminated dot on the reticle cross hairs I can shoot two eyes open just like a red dot. Amazing what you can hit at distance on 6x

I have red dots on a few firearms but on my AR for serious work, from 3gun to defense to hunting, I like a 1x6 with illuminated reticle.
It's good for anything from room distance to 600 yards.

For me a dedicated red dot covers too much of a target beyond 50 yards for accuracy work.

Posted: 9/13/2018 8:13:14 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
I've always been a big believer in red dot for anything in a self defense/HD/zombie gun, and LPVO for anything you would use for 100-400 yards or so. I'm reconsidering that currently. To my, my HD/bug out rifle is the one that I'll grab if the alarm goes off, looters roll in, etc. But this weekend I had my fold up 300BO SBR with Primary Arms micro dot in a bag for a weekend trip to a lake cabin. There was a deer about 110 yards out, and with the dot there was no way for me to determine if I was holding over vitals or a shoulder, let alone the neck shot everyone claims to make on this site. Since the doe was not a threat I was just looking, but made me really consider switching over to a variable.

I'm thinking I would like to be able to see someone's hands or distinguish what they are holding. It also seems like I would have a better chance at IDing a target if needed.

anyone else come to the same conclusion?

Coming up with a pros/cons list the major cons I see are weight, and price. Am I missing anything? I already own a Trijicon tr24, but would have to pull it off my 3 gun rifle, thus admitting to myself I don't really compete anymore

View Quote

Yep. Real world use quickly tends to change the channel of "I can hit me a white 9" plate on a dirt berm at 300 yards with my RDS every time!" types. Now here you are not being able to solve a deer problem at 100 yards with confidence in the real world. Good on you. I had the same revelation years ago shooting stuff in non-contrasting environs.

Optics are personal. Buy quality and buy what you like, are my only two lines of advice given what you're telling me.