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Posted: 7/4/2023 9:52:28 AM EST
[#1]
Okay I chrono'ed 3 300 sabres, again an 8.5 inch barrel. 2115, error, 2075, so not bad over all and is a good speed for a 8.5 barrel.
Pick of the block before the shots.  My "calibration" shot of a 147 hst from a 365 went 10.5 inches and it expanded perfectly. This is with in a 1/4 inch of when the block was new, so its still close to consistent with my other gel block shots. First the pic of the 147 in the block  the 300 sabre when in 11 inches and expanded well. It did leave a few pieces of lead and jacket along the way. I have washed off the gel and am waiting for all of the bullets to dry to get a retained weight. The bullet you see is the 300, and a little lower left is the hst.  Next is the 55 grain sabre. It blew up instantly and only went in 8 inches, and fragged pretty bad. Whats left is tiny.  finally the 75 grain sabre. It expanded with in 1.5 inches, did a nice wound cavity and traveled right at 11 inches. It did shed some lead, but I fully expect that.  |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 9:52:43 AM EST
[#2]
Pics of the bullets, what is what is pretty self expainitory.
Left to right hst, 300 blk, 55 and then 75  close up 55 vs 75  I will update the next post with retained weights later. |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 10:46:19 AM EST
[#3]
@Bravo_Six
@Jman_JJE @swampvol |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 12:03:48 PM EST
[#4]
Thanks for sharing your results. I’ve been waiting to see gel tests.
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Posted: 7/4/2023 12:20:57 PM EST
[#5]
Interesting. The 75 seems pretty decent. The 55 not so much.
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Posted: 7/4/2023 1:18:19 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Bravo_Six @Jman_JJE @swampvol Outstanding! Also thanks for tagging me. |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 1:59:21 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. The 75 seems pretty decent. The 55 not so much. The 55 might make a decent stock pile shtf ammo for shorter barrels. Its not much more cost wise than fmj but will do something more than poke holes at 100 yards. |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 3:33:44 PM EST
[#8]
Quoted: @Bravo_Six @Jman_JJE @swampvol Thanks for sharing the results! We have several other rounds getting ready for release. I may send you some to play with. Thanks, Jamin |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 5:37:23 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Bravo_Six @Jman_JJE @swampvol Awesome job! The 300 and 75Gr look pretty darn good. 11" is a little shallower than I'd like, but still pretty good. The HST, well, looks like an HST. |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 5:47:29 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Awesome job! The 300 and 75Gr look pretty darn good. 11" is a little shallower than I'd like, but still pretty good. The HST, well, looks like an HST. You need to remember this is not calibrated gel. The fact that so many things stopped between 10-12 inches, that normally stop deeper in other gels tells me this stuff maybe a little stiffer. But as I have said on my other threads every gel will act a little differently. This gel is really only good for testing against other rounds in this gel. The plus is I did not pay for it a friend did and I am getting a fair bit of use out of it is good. Maybe I will buy a clear gel block as it is tested against other gels and kind of a standard. |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 5:54:35 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: . . . a clear gel block as it is tested against other gels and kind of a standard. Flat. Out. False. .. |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 5:56:59 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Flat. Out. False. .. I dont mean it as an industry standard. I mean as a youtube standard that lots of people shoot. Meaning a result I get from it with a certain bullet or load can be compared to what others can find for another bullet/load in clear gel. which can then be compared to the same load in calibrated ballistic industry gel. Sure there is some connect the dots but it can be done. edit If in clear gel the aac 77 otm goes 16 inches, and someone else tested imi 77 in real gel and it went 18 inches, and another tested imi 77 in clear gel and it went 20 inches. We could assume the aac 77 otm may go to 17-18 inches in real gel. @molon |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 6:00:20 PM EST
[#13]
OST
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Posted: 7/4/2023 6:17:22 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: edit If in clear gel the aac 77 otm goes 16 inches, and someone else tested imi 77 in real gel and it went 18 inches, and another tested imi 77 in clear gel and it went 20 inches. We could assume the aac 77 otm may go to 17-18 inches in real gel. Critical thinking is clearly not your forte, so I'll leave you to your completely unscientific testing and assumptions with your non-scientific-standard "organic" gel being melted over and over again. ... |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 6:25:17 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Critical thinking is clearly not your forte, so I'll leave you to your completely unscientific testing and assumptions with your non-scientific-standard "organic" gel being melted over and over again. ... I am not comparing this gel to anything but its self. Thats why I said I may get clear gel. It has been used a lot more so it has more data to compare shots to. Sure we know real calibrated gel is the standard. But something tested in clear gel, can be compared to something else tested in clear gel. yes this gel is an odd ball that cant be compared to others. I never said a round will do the same in this stuff vs real gel. |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 7:18:13 PM EST
[#16]
I’d expect 147 hst to penetrate atleast 14” but likely more. So using that to as a comparison even the 55gr is likely to meet the 12” minimum, the 62 and 77 are probably going to be good choices and fairly deep penetrators. Can you weight the recovered projectiles?
They clearly didn’t blow up entirely like the did in the water “test” Molons probably going to cry himself to sleep over that one 147HST into calibrated gel, average penetration 14.7”  AMMO REVIEW: 9mm 147 gr Federal HST in Calibrated Gel (2021) |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 7:39:20 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’d expect 147 hst to penetrate atleast 14” but likely more. So using that to as a comparison even the 55gr is likely to meet the 12” minimum, the 62 and 77 are probably going to be good choices and fairly deep penetrators. Can you weight the recovered projectiles? They clearly didn’t blow up entirely like the did in the water “test” Molons probably going to cry himself to sleep over that one I will weight them tomorrow. Yes I would think the 147 would go a little deeper, maybe the 3.1 barrel length was the problem. But I do think the gel is a little stiff than it should be, based on other bullets I have seen tested. Like 300 110 grain as they seem to average 14-16" and both that I have tested in this went around 11-13. I dont think the 55 would have made it past 12 inches, it blew up instantly. I have ordered a bb gun just so I can be a little more precise and repeatable standards. I did some reading on the calibration tests. Its 10% +- so a 20 % spread, which I think is a wide spread and could be 2 inches either way on something like the hst. ( unless the 20% only is accurate on a BB ) |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 8:13:37 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will weight them tomorrow. Yes I would think the 147 would go a little deeper, maybe the 3.1 barrel length was the problem. But I do think the gel is a little stiff than it should be, based on other bullets I have seen tested. Like 300 110 grain as they seem to average 14-16" and both that I have tested in this went around 11-13. I dont think the 55 would have made it past 12 inches, it blew up instantly. I have ordered a bb gun just so I can be a little more precise and repeatable standards. I did some reading on the calibration tests. Its 10% +- so a 20 % spread, which I think is a wide spread and could be 2 inches either way on something like the hst. ( unless the 20% only is accurate on a BB ) If anything the shorter barrel would likely mean more penetration due to lower velocities and less expansion |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 8:32:18 PM EST
[#19]
Thanks for doing this OP!
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Posted: 7/4/2023 8:36:14 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If anything the shorter barrel would likely mean more penetration due to lower velocities and less expansion Maybe but the hst is pretty well controlled expansion. It might not expand any greater amount if moving 100 fps faster, but that is a lot more momentum. |
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Posted: 7/5/2023 12:37:05 AM EST
[#21]
I have a block of clear gel to melt and half a case of the 62gr Sabre. Maybe I'll shoot it to add some data to the pile.
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Posted: 7/5/2023 12:38:07 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Critical thinking is clearly not your forte, so I'll leave you to your completely unscientific testing and assumptions with your non-scientific-standard "organic" gel being melted over and over again. ... If you don't like his test then feel free to go get some gel and test it yourself champ. |
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Posted: 7/5/2023 9:15:50 AM EST
[#23]
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Posted: 7/5/2023 9:27:00 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryGreat info. My block came out of the fridge and was shot with in I would say 5-6 mins. I Basically took it out of the fridge went out side, shot the 365, shot the 300. Took pics of each, swapped the can from one gun to another and turned the block around and shot the other two shots. So I accidently did it right, I knew temp would effect it but not as much as that shows. |
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Posted: 7/5/2023 8:58:05 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You need to remember this is not calibrated gel. The fact that so many things stopped between 10-12 inches, that normally stop deeper in other gels tells me this stuff maybe a little stiffer. But as I have said on my other threads every gel will act a little differently. This gel is really only good for testing against other rounds in this gel. The plus is I did not pay for it a friend did and I am getting a fair bit of use out of it is good. Maybe I will buy a clear gel block as it is tested against other gels and kind of a standard. I somehow missed the 147 HST only penetrating 10.5". Yes, those usually do 14-18". |
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Posted: 7/5/2023 11:31:19 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great info. My block came out of the fridge and was shot with in I would say 5-6 mins. I Basically took it out of the fridge went out side, shot the 365, shot the 300. Took pics of each, swapped the can from one gun to another and turned the block around and shot the other two shots. So I accidently did it right, I knew temp would effect it but not as much as that shows. Thank you for your temp. info. And Thank you for sharing your results. |
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Posted: 7/8/2023 11:23:33 AM EST
[#27]
Just a little test of the calibration. I remelted the block thursday night, I received a bb gun the mail friday.
I just did a test shot, velocity was 579, it penetrated 2.75 inches. The "standard" impact velocity is 590, so a little low. The standard depth starts at about 3 inches, so also just a tad low. I just found a calculator to see what it says I should get. edit by the calculator I found I should have had about 1 cm or just under a 1/2 inch more of depth. So yes this block is a little shallow for penetration, or about 85% of what it should be. Using this as a correction factor my 147 hst would have gone 12.35 inches, actual was 10.5, assuming that its consistent with any bullet caliber or velocity. |
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Posted: 7/8/2023 6:41:28 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just a little test of the calibration. I remelted the block thursday night, I received a bb gun the mail friday. I just did a test shot, velocity was 579, it penetrated 2.75 inches. The "standard" impact velocity is 590, so a little low. The standard depth starts at about 3 inches, so also just a tad low. I just found a calculator to see what it says I should get. edit by the calculator I found I should have had about 1 cm or just under a 1/2 inch more of depth. So yes this block is a little shallow for penetration, or about 85% of what it should be. Using this as a correction factor my 147 hst would have gone 12.35 inches, actual was 10.5, assuming that its consistent with any bullet caliber or velocity. Great info, as always. Thanks again for sharing this! 
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Posted: 7/15/2023 12:35:35 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Critical thinking is clearly not your forte, so I'll leave you to your completely unscientific testing and assumptions with your non-scientific-standard "organic" gel being melted over and over again. ... This is pretty disgusting behavior, your production of excellent information does NOT give you the right to trash other people's hardwork in trying to provide the community with atleast some new data points. Seriously what happened to you? You went from being a highly respected poster to just attacking people and being an abrasive troll, if you are going though some hard times or something don't take out on others it just makes you look bad. |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 8:05:15 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is pretty disgusting behavior, your production of excellent information does NOT give you the right to trash other people's hardwork in trying to provide the community with atleast some new data points. Seriously what happened to you? You went from being a highly respected poster to just attacking people and being an abrasive troll, if you are going though some hard times or something don't take out on others it just makes you look bad. So sorry that adhering to scientific principles in a technical forum makes you butt-hurt. As for the "production of excellent information", you wouldn't know the first thing about that since you've never done it and as for "trashing other people's hardwork", take a look in the mirror hypocrite, both right here and on TOS. .... |
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Posted: 7/27/2023 4:18:23 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So sorry that adhering to scientific principles in a technical forum makes you butt-hurt. As for the "production of excellent information", you wouldn't know the first thing about that since you've never done it and as for "trashing other people's hardwork", take a look in the mirror hypocrite, both right here and on TOS. .... Dang man….  I read in OPs first few sentences that it was a re melted block. In my mind “not going to be 100% accurate but at least going to give an idea”. Thanks OP. I was actually glad to see this as I was wondering about how they would react. I had some 77gs I wanted to test vs TMKs and I just got some of the 110g 300BO in the mail today. Probably a much better representation than what I personally was going to do out back with a homemade rednecked gelatin mold. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 2:53:50 PM EST
[#32]
I appreciate the post, OP!
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Posted: 8/3/2023 9:46:02 PM EST
[#33]
I appreciate the velocity data and work on gel. I don’t base everything on gel tests. I like them but I love the meat target tests or what happens when you hit a deer or hog with that round.
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Posted: 8/6/2023 10:56:22 AM EST
[#34]
Thanks for a visual indication of performance on these rounds, OP. I had swung into PSA a few weeks ago and saw they had the 55 grain ammo for less than 50 cents a shot, so decided to take a swing on 200 rounds, even though I couldn't find anything on the ammo outside of the store listing. I was looking for something with a little more velocity in my 11.5 versus the 77 grain stuff I've been squirreling away.
It's a shame Molon came in here to shit on you, not sure anyone would take this as anything more than some indication of performance compared to some other loadings. If he wants to take a more scientific approach, then he should nut up. |
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Posted: 8/9/2023 12:16:40 PM EST
[#35]
Thanks for the info and the qualifiers.
For many, information provided in context is useful. While peer-reviewed data is (or was?) the norm in the scientific community, sometimes, as a normal human being, you just want to know if it's raining outside and don't care about the barometric pressure, temperature, absolute humidity, atmospheric gas content, etc. No amount of arrogance or derogatory remarks changes that. |
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Posted: 8/10/2023 1:19:45 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the info and the qualifiers. For many, information provided in context is useful. While peer-reviewed data is (or was?) the norm in the scientific community, sometimes, as a normal human being, you just want to know if it's raining outside and don't care about the barometric pressure, temperature, absolute humidity, atmospheric gas content, etc. No amount of arrogance or derogatory remarks changes that. Well put, sir. |
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Posted: 8/11/2023 8:09:43 AM EST
[#37]
I think Molon's point in the first rebuttal was that clear ballistics gel is not really a standard that correlates to calibrated ballistic gel, much less uncalibrated gel. Pistol rounds and rifle rounds, for instance, do not have the same % difference in clear ballistics vs calibrated 10% organic gel. Whether a pistol hollow point design will clog and fail to expand with denim over gel a significant % of the time or perform perfectly virtually every time is also not the same. Adding an even greater degree of non standardization is not going to improve that situation and I agree with that line of thought.
As for just gestimates of adding a fixed percent...that is about asaccurate as comparing water or water packed phone books, or to say, not really that comparable across bullets designs and calibers at all other than the roughest and most crude of guesses. I look at this test the same way I look at clear gel. It is not "scientific" or "comparable" by adjusting percentage, but it gives the general idea of what the bullet MIGHT do. Clear things like dramatic over fragmentation and under penetration will be obvious. As will massive over penetration. Whether you can expect a round to barely, but always, cross the 12" mimimum depth in calibrated 10% gel is NOT something you can accurately deduce from this though. I am also going to throw this out there... are we sure this is even 10% gel? Even it it was... it would make sense the gel could have evaporative losses and the % of gel is higher than 10% now. I know 20% gel only has like 2/3 to 3/4 the penetration depth of 10% gel. Was the block weighed each time it was recast? |
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Posted: 8/11/2023 10:47:06 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you don't like his test then feel free to go get some gel and test it yourself champ. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Critical thinking is clearly not your forte, so I'll leave you to your completely unscientific testing and assumptions with your non-scientific-standard "organic" gel being melted over and over again. ... If you don't like his test then feel free to go get some gel and test it yourself champ. And this is why actual SME leave and we get people testing bullets in clear gel and others who think it's at all relevant to anything. It's absolutely worthless testing. |
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Posted: 8/11/2023 10:49:33 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great info. My block came out of the fridge and was shot with in I would say 5-6 mins. I Basically took it out of the fridge went out side, shot the 365, shot the 300. Took pics of each, swapped the can from one gun to another and turned the block around and shot the other two shots. So I accidently did it right, I knew temp would effect it but not as much as that shows. Quote HistoryQuoted: Great info. My block came out of the fridge and was shot with in I would say 5-6 mins. I Basically took it out of the fridge went out side, shot the 365, shot the 300. Took pics of each, swapped the can from one gun to another and turned the block around and shot the other two shots. So I accidently did it right, I knew temp would effect it but not as much as that shows. Properly calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant. Validation of ballistic gelatin is conducted by firing a . 177" steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin, resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" - 3.74"). |
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Posted: 8/11/2023 10:52:37 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is pretty disgusting behavior, your production of excellent information does NOT give you the right to trash other people's hardwork in trying to provide the community with atleast some new data points. Seriously what happened to you? You went from being a highly respected poster to just attacking people and being an abrasive troll, if you are going though some hard times or something don't take out on others it just makes you look bad. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Critical thinking is clearly not your forte, so I'll leave you to your completely unscientific testing and assumptions with your non-scientific-standard "organic" gel being melted over and over again. ... This is pretty disgusting behavior, your production of excellent information does NOT give you the right to trash other people's hardwork in trying to provide the community with atleast some new data points. Seriously what happened to you? You went from being a highly respected poster to just attacking people and being an abrasive troll, if you are going though some hard times or something don't take out on others it just makes you look bad. Some people try hard at keeping the tech forums tech. GD is over there |
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Posted: 8/11/2023 10:54:56 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Properly calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant. Validation of ballistic gelatin is conducted by firing a . 177" steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin, resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" - 3.74"). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Great info. My block came out of the fridge and was shot with in I would say 5-6 mins. I Basically took it out of the fridge went out side, shot the 365, shot the 300. Took pics of each, swapped the can from one gun to another and turned the block around and shot the other two shots. So I accidently did it right, I knew temp would effect it but not as much as that shows. Properly calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant. Validation of ballistic gelatin is conducted by firing a . 177" steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin, resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" - 3.74"). Glad you got a BB gun. I'd be interested in what re melts do. |
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Posted: 8/11/2023 11:14:11 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some people try hard at keeping the tech forums tech. GD is over there Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Critical thinking is clearly not your forte, so I'll leave you to your completely unscientific testing and assumptions with your non-scientific-standard "organic" gel being melted over and over again. ... This is pretty disgusting behavior, your production of excellent information does NOT give you the right to trash other people's hardwork in trying to provide the community with atleast some new data points. Seriously what happened to you? You went from being a highly respected poster to just attacking people and being an abrasive troll, if you are going though some hard times or something don't take out on others it just makes you look bad. Some people try hard at keeping the tech forums tech. GD is over there Ironically, there is also a CoC for tech that is more formal than GD, and isn’t permissive to personal attacks, arguments, and insults either; so “this is tech” goes both ways in this situation. |
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Posted: 8/12/2023 2:05:59 PM EST
[#43]
Nvm
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Posted: 8/13/2023 1:51:11 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So sorry that adhering to scientific principles in a technical forum makes you butt-hurt. As for the "production of excellent information", you wouldn't know the first thing about that since you've never done it Quote HistoryQuoted: So sorry that adhering to scientific principles in a technical forum makes you butt-hurt. As for the "production of excellent information", you wouldn't know the first thing about that since you've never done it He was talking about YOUR information, that you produce. Of all the things you could have taken issue with, that seems like an odd choice. and as for "trashing other people's hardwork", take a look in the mirror hypocrite, both right here and on TOS. .... You are pretty clearly trying to get this thread locked. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:30:33 PM EST
[#45]
@StaccatoC2
When you shot the Sabre ammo did it seem any more dirty or smoky than other manufactures? I bought some of the AAC 9mm and it was filthy. Every pull of the trigger was like a smoke bomb. I know there is a difference between rifle and handgun ammo but I'm just curious what your experience was. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:37:12 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @StaccatoC2 When you shot the Sabre ammo did it seem any more dirty or smoky than other manufactures? I bought some of the AAC 9mm and it was filthy. Every pull of the trigger was like a smoke bomb. I know there is a difference between rifle and handgun ammo but I'm just curious what your experience was. I did not look for it, or notice it, so no. I have also shot about 500 rounds of the aac thru my suppressed ar and it does not seem any dirtier than normal. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 8:07:10 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @StaccatoC2 When you shot the Sabre ammo did it seem any more dirty or smoky than other manufactures? I bought some of the AAC 9mm and it was filthy. Every pull of the trigger was like a smoke bomb. I know there is a difference between rifle and handgun ammo but I'm just curious what your experience was. I've shot a little over 1000 rounds of the AAC 9mm without it seeming dirty at all. I've gone well over 500 rounds in a row without cleaning my pistol, didn't have any issues, but its a Glock so... I've also shot around 500 rounds of the AAC 5.56 55 gr. FMJ, also no issues (so far). |
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Posted: 8/15/2023 1:42:44 PM EST
[#48]
I burned through a couple hundred 62gr Sabre and it wasn't any more smoky than anything else.
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Posted: 8/21/2023 9:40:04 PM EST
[#49]
Do we know the claimed frag threshold of these?
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