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Posted: 11/21/2018 9:19:16 PM EDT
I read somewhere that the X identifies that the ammo was declined by the military.
What could it have been declined for? Should this ammo be stocked up and relyed on for battle load? |
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[#2]
Experimental designation prior to approval by military sources?
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[#4]
Like this guy mentioned. I'm pretty sure it's just a legal thing for commercial sale. Just a naming thing.
Quoted:
I think it is commercial version of an established mil load. View Quote |
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[#6]
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[#7]
Quoted:
I read somewhere that the X identifies that the ammo was declined by the military. What could it have been declined for? Should this ammo be stocked up and relyed on for battle load? View Quote |
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[#8]
Think of actual military M885 (and any other "M" designation) as a "trade mark". It's not really a trade mark but for ammo to be sold as M855 or M882 or M193 whatever, it had to pass a bunch of very specific tests and exams. Federal is not saying it would not pass the military inspections but only it has not been through it. Kinda like buying bolts that have MPI etched on it...if it hasn't had that specific test done to it, it should not have that designation. So the "X" tells you it is the same spec as the "M" ammo without all the military batch testing etc.
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[#9]
X means buy extra. No really, buy more. Actually don't by any so there's an ammo glut driving prices even lower so I can buy more X.
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[#10]
Quoted:
I read somewhere that the X identifies that the ammo was declined by the military. What could it have been declined for? Should this ammo be stocked up and relyed on for battle load? View Quote |
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[#11]
Quoted:
I read somewhere that the X identifies that the ammo was declined by the military. View Quote |
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[#12]
I have always been under the impression that X designates civilian use and that it is the same load/quality as the military M193.
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[#13]
The X has to do with the Clinton administration back in the 90’s not allowing military ammo to be sold to the public so they put the X on the name to get around it. It is not rejected ammo. At least that’s what I read on why it has a X.
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[#15]
Warning sent - that's twice this morning I've had to edit out GD-type posts. Knock it off - Eric802
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[#17]
Quoted:
Now that you guys are all done speculating I will tell you what the differences between them are. :) Ohh and for the one who asked about reliability. Yes. Its all good. There are basically two reasons why the Lake City ammo might get the X. First and most likely is that it was a civilian run. XM. Same exact components run on the exact same lines to the same exact specs but intended for civilian consumption. XM. No MIL LAT (Lot Acceptance Test). Another reason could be for example if a mil run was rejected. Could be something like slightly out of spec on velocity or something. Maybe the LAT revealed the round were 10fps out of spec. Still well within spec for civilian use though. Gets XM and sold to civilian market. Most all rejected mil ammo is recycled though. Depends on the defect. It it was 5fps low then it will probably go to civ market. If it was dingy brass... civvy market. If it was bad ejector lip.... would almost certainly get recycled for components. And of course it could get rejected for a litany of different reasons. Lake City M193 and M855 are mil runs that passed inspection. You can find mil run and lot accepted in the civvy market. Its pretty much just over run that was LAT accepted but not taken possession of by the mil because it was.... you guessed it. Overrun. Maybe the contract was for 20 million rounds and they produced 23 million. The whole lot got accepted as it was all in the same run but the mil only took possession of the 20 million contracted. Also, Federal doesn't have anything to do with Lake City any more per se. Federal, along with Savage, Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, and a bunch of other sporting goods split off from ATK and went under the Vista Outdoors umbrella. However, Lake City, stayed under the mil and fell under the Orbital ATK umbrella for about two years before Orbital ATK was bought out by Northrup Grumman. That being said. LC still produces AE223, 556 and other for Federal. They also are now contracting for Winchester as well. Would you like to see a picture? Yea? Just don't ask what I pay for this stuff. That answer would make you cry and just get mad! LOL http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%201.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%202.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/DELIVERED%20-%20Copy.jpg View Quote |
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[#18]
Quoted:
Now that you guys are all done speculating I will tell you what the differences between them are. :) Ohh and for the one who asked about reliability. Yes. Its all good. There are basically two reasons why the Lake City ammo might get the X. First and most likely is that it was a civilian run. XM. Same exact components run on the exact same lines to the same exact specs but intended for civilian consumption. XM. No MIL LAT (Lot Acceptance Test). Another reason could be for example if a mil run was rejected. Could be something like slightly out of spec on velocity or something. Maybe the LAT revealed the round were 10fps out of spec. Still well within spec for civilian use though. Gets XM and sold to civilian market. Most all rejected mil ammo is recycled though. Depends on the defect. It it was 5fps low then it will probably go to civ market. If it was dingy brass... civvy market. If it was bad ejector lip.... would almost certainly get recycled for components. And of course it could get rejected for a litany of different reasons. Lake City M193 and M855 are mil runs that passed inspection. You can find mil run and lot accepted in the civvy market. Its pretty much just over run that was LAT accepted but not taken possession of by the mil because it was.... you guessed it. Overrun. Maybe the contract was for 20 million rounds and they produced 23 million. The whole lot got accepted as it was all in the same run but the mil only took possession of the 20 million contracted. Also, Federal doesn't have anything to do with Lake City any more per se. Federal, along with Savage, Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, and a bunch of other sporting goods split off from ATK and went under the Vista Outdoors umbrella. However, Lake City, stayed under the mil and fell under the Orbital ATK umbrella for about two years before Orbital ATK was bought out by Northrup Grumman. That being said. LC still produces AE223, 556 and other for Federal. They also are now contracting for Winchester as well. Would you like to see a picture? Yea? Just don't ask what I pay for this stuff. That answer would make you cry and just get mad! LOL http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%201.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%202.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/DELIVERED%20-%20Copy.jpg View Quote Thanks for the info. |
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[#19]
Quoted:
Now that you guys are all done speculating I will tell you what the differences between them are. :) Ohh and for the one who asked about reliability. Yes. Its all good. There are basically two reasons why the Lake City ammo might get the X. First and most likely is that it was a civilian run. XM. Same exact components run on the exact same lines to the same exact specs but intended for civilian consumption. XM. No MIL LAT (Lot Acceptance Test). Another reason could be for example if a mil run was rejected. Could be something like slightly out of spec on velocity or something. Maybe the LAT revealed the round were 10fps out of spec. Still well within spec for civilian use though. Gets XM and sold to civilian market. Most all rejected mil ammo is recycled though. Depends on the defect. It it was 5fps low then it will probably go to civ market. If it was dingy brass... civvy market. If it was bad ejector lip.... would almost certainly get recycled for components. And of course it could get rejected for a litany of different reasons. Lake City M193 and M855 are mil runs that passed inspection. You can find mil run and lot accepted in the civvy market. Its pretty much just over run that was LAT accepted but not taken possession of by the mil because it was.... you guessed it. Overrun. Maybe the contract was for 20 million rounds and they produced 23 million. The whole lot got accepted as it was all in the same run but the mil only took possession of the 20 million contracted. Also, Federal doesn't have anything to do with Lake City any more per se. Federal, along with Savage, Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, and a bunch of other sporting goods split off from ATK and went under the Vista Outdoors umbrella. However, Lake City, stayed under the mil and fell under the Orbital ATK umbrella for about two years before Orbital ATK was bought out by Northrup Grumman. That being said. LC still produces AE223, 556 and other for Federal. They also are now contracting for Winchester as well. Would you like to see a picture? Yea? Just don't ask what I pay for this stuff. That answer would make you cry and just get mad! LOL http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%201.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%202.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/DELIVERED%20-%20Copy.jpg View Quote |
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[#20]
Quoted:
Now that you guys are all done speculating I will tell you what the differences between them are. :) Ohh and for the one who asked about reliability. Yes. Its all good. There are basically two reasons why the Lake City ammo might get the X. First and most likely is that it was a civilian run. XM. Same exact components run on the exact same lines to the same exact specs but intended for civilian consumption. XM. No MIL LAT (Lot Acceptance Test). Another reason could be for example if a mil run was rejected. Could be something like slightly out of spec on velocity or something. Maybe the LAT revealed the round were 10fps out of spec. Still well within spec for civilian use though. Gets XM and sold to civilian market. Most all rejected mil ammo is recycled though. Depends on the defect. It it was 5fps low then it will probably go to civ market. If it was dingy brass... civvy market. If it was bad ejector lip.... would almost certainly get recycled for components. And of course it could get rejected for a litany of different reasons. Lake City M193 and M855 are mil runs that passed inspection. You can find mil run and lot accepted in the civvy market. Its pretty much just over run that was LAT accepted but not taken possession of by the mil because it was.... you guessed it. Overrun. Maybe the contract was for 20 million rounds and they produced 23 million. The whole lot got accepted as it was all in the same run but the mil only took possession of the 20 million contracted. Also, Federal doesn't have anything to do with Lake City any more per se. Federal, along with Savage, Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, and a bunch of other sporting goods split off from ATK and went under the Vista Outdoors umbrella. However, Lake City, stayed under the mil and fell under the Orbital ATK umbrella for about two years before Orbital ATK was bought out by Northrup Grumman. That being said. LC still produces AE223, 556 and other for Federal. They also are now contracting for Winchester as well. Would you like to see a picture? Yea? Just don't ask what I pay for this stuff. That answer would make you cry and just get mad! LOL http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%201.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%202.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/DELIVERED%20-%20Copy.jpg View Quote |
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[#21]
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[#22]
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[#23]
Quoted:
Now that you guys are all done speculating I will tell you what the differences between them are. :) Ohh and for the one who asked about reliability. Yes. Its all good. There are basically two reasons why the Lake City ammo might get the X. First and most likely is that it was a civilian run. XM. Same exact components run on the exact same lines to the same exact specs but intended for civilian consumption. XM. No MIL LAT (Lot Acceptance Test). Another reason could be for example if a mil run was rejected. Could be something like slightly out of spec on velocity or something. Maybe the LAT revealed the round were 10fps out of spec. Still well within spec for civilian use though. Gets XM and sold to civilian market. Most all rejected mil ammo is recycled though. Depends on the defect. It it was 5fps low then it will probably go to civ market. If it was dingy brass... civvy market. If it was bad ejector lip.... would almost certainly get recycled for components. And of course it could get rejected for a litany of different reasons. Lake City M193 and M855 are mil runs that passed inspection. You can find mil run and lot accepted in the civvy market. Its pretty much just over run that was LAT accepted but not taken possession of by the mil because it was.... you guessed it. Overrun. Maybe the contract was for 20 million rounds and they produced 23 million. The whole lot got accepted as it was all in the same run but the mil only took possession of the 20 million contracted. Also, Federal doesn't have anything to do with Lake City any more per se. Federal, along with Savage, Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, and a bunch of other sporting goods split off from ATK and went under the Vista Outdoors umbrella. However, Lake City, stayed under the mil and fell under the Orbital ATK umbrella for about two years before Orbital ATK was bought out by Northrup Grumman. That being said. LC still produces AE223, 556 and other for Federal. They also are now contracting for Winchester as well. Would you like to see a picture? Yea? Just don't ask what I pay for this stuff. That answer would make you cry and just get mad! LOL http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%201.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%202.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/DELIVERED%20-%20Copy.jpg View Quote The vast majority is fine, just either not tested to mil-spec or failed for minor reasons, however occasionally they release some real bad stuff. |
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[#24]
It's been asked, but worth trying again...
Why is m193 still being produced? Only the oldest, crustiest salt dogs still in the USMC even tasted m193. I hear the army has been using m855a1 for quite some time now, so I can't fathom most soldiers with less than 20 years know m193 either. Who is buying the m193 (besides civilian market)? I don't even think the Taiwanese are using it (wolf gold reference), as I've personally shot m855 from them (headstamp TAA/10). |
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[#25]
I do not know the answer. I can only assume its cheap. Therefore, good for training.
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[#26]
Quoted:
It's been asked, but worth trying again... Why is m193 still being produced? Only the oldest, crustiest salt dogs still in the USMC even tasted m193. I hear the army has been using m855a1 for quite some time now, so I can't fathom most soldiers with less than 20 years know m193 either. Who is buying the m193 (besides civilian market)? I don't even think the Taiwanese are using it (wolf gold reference), as I've personally shot m855 from them (headstamp TAA/10). View Quote |
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[#27]
Quoted:
It's been asked, but worth trying again... Why is m193 still being produced? View Quote Lots of people want to walk in to the local ammo shop/gun store and buy whatever is cheapest to blast at the range. |
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[#28]
"Why is M193 still being produced?"
A pal suggested it was because the M855 variants will tear up shoot houses. |
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[#29]
Quoted:
It's been asked, but worth trying again... Why is m193 still being produced? Only the oldest, crustiest salt dogs still in the USMC even tasted m193. I hear the army has been using m855a1 for quite some time now, so I can't fathom most soldiers with less than 20 years know m193 either. Who is buying the m193 (besides civilian market)? I don't even think the Taiwanese are using it (wolf gold reference), as I've personally shot m855 from them (headstamp TAA/10). View Quote In the case of XM193 I would guess 99% is civilian runs. |
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[#30]
Quoted: Go back and read little scrappers post. XM193/XM855 can either be civilian runs of ammo OR mil rejects. In the case of XM193 I would guess 99% is civilian runs. View Quote Even though I generally buy import (IMI, PPU, WG). |
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[#31]
Quoted:
"Why is M193 still being produced?" A pal suggested it was because the M855 variants will tear up shoot houses. View Quote |
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[#32]
Quoted:
Now that you guys are all done speculating I will tell you what the differences between them are. :) Ohh and for the one who asked about reliability. Yes. Its all good. There are basically two reasons why the Lake City ammo might get the X. First and most likely is that it was a civilian run. XM. Same exact components run on the exact same lines to the same exact specs but intended for civilian consumption. XM. No MIL LAT (Lot Acceptance Test). Another reason could be for example if a mil run was rejected. Could be something like slightly out of spec on velocity or something. Maybe the LAT revealed the round were 10fps out of spec. Still well within spec for civilian use though. Gets XM and sold to civilian market. Most all rejected mil ammo is recycled though. Depends on the defect. It it was 5fps low then it will probably go to civ market. If it was dingy brass... civvy market. If it was bad ejector lip.... would almost certainly get recycled for components. And of course it could get rejected for a litany of different reasons. Lake City M193 and M855 are mil runs that passed inspection. You can find mil run and lot accepted in the civvy market. Its pretty much just over run that was LAT accepted but not taken possession of by the mil because it was.... you guessed it. Overrun. Maybe the contract was for 20 million rounds and they produced 23 million. The whole lot got accepted as it was all in the same run but the mil only took possession of the 20 million contracted. Also, Federal doesn't have anything to do with Lake City any more per se. Federal, along with Savage, Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, and a bunch of other sporting goods split off from ATK and went under the Vista Outdoors umbrella. However, Lake City, stayed under the mil and fell under the Orbital ATK umbrella for about two years before Orbital ATK was bought out by Northrup Grumman. That being said. LC still produces AE223, 556 and other for Federal. They also are now contracting for Winchester as well. Would you like to see a picture? Yea? Just don't ask what I pay for this stuff. That answer would make you cry and just get mad! LOL http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%201.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/label%202.jpg https://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/BTStuner/DELIVERED%20-%20Copy.jpg View Quote |
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[#33]
Quoted:
Commercial designation. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/Screenshot_20180923-213656-681261-746885.png View Quote From the above: XM193 muzzle velocity is 3165 FPS (manufacturers designated speed) From Wikipedia 5.56 NATO: M193 = 3260 fps. I've seen it said XM versions tend to be a touch slower than M versions, and I suppose that is the case, based on manufacturers posted velocity spec. If I were running a civilian run of M193, I too would probably take back just a touch of charge, since the ammo has to fit and function in a much broader range of guns with more diverse quality control options. Though, I think IMI just runs straight mil-spec on theirs. |
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[#34]
Quoted: Go back and read little scrappers post. XM193/XM855 can either be civilian runs of ammo OR mil rejects. In the case of XM193 I would guess 99% is civilian runs. View Quote |
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[#35]
Do you know why it was rejected?
As in does the plant state the reject reason on the package or the invoice for employee sales? |
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[#36]
Quoted: Speed. XM version is slower than M version. Or least, that's what it keeps seeming to come back to from everything I read. Here in this thread, we saw the above screenshot. From the above: XM193 muzzle velocity is 3165 FPS (manufacturers designated speed) From Wikipedia 5.56 NATO: M193 = 3260 fps. I've seen it said XM versions tend to be a touch slower than M versions, and I suppose that is the case, based on manufacturers posted velocity spec. If I were running a civilian run of M193, I too would probably take back just a touch of charge, since the ammo has to fit and function in a much broader range of guns with more diverse quality control options. Though, I think IMI just runs straight mil-spec on theirs. View Quote |
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[#37]
Quoted:
3,165 fps is measured at 78 feet, per the mil-spec . . . View Quote "Correct, also 5.56 velocity is measured at 78ft, and 223 velocity is measured at 15ft." Also "5.56 is normally quoted from a 20" barrel since the old M-16s had 20s. 223 is normal rifle ammunition and it is tradition to calculate MV from a 24" barrel here. Europe uses a 26" barrel I believe." https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Federal-223-REM-higher-velocity-than-Federal-XM193-/16-731041/ |
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[#38]
Quoted:
Do you know why it was rejected? As in does the plant state the reject reason on the package or the invoice for employee sales? View Quote When I used to be able to walk right into Federal up in Anoka; I always picked 40 cal that said "visual" as the defect. It would be one of two things usually, (almost always), and I opened the boxes to check, it was either a little tar blob on the case or a small scratch. Small scratch I didn't care about. Little tar blob. I would just grab some IPA and go through the boxes and rub it off. Defect gone. Now I have a 50 rnd count box of HST 40 S&W for $5. hehe. That is one perk I sorely miss. I am sure you can imagine! |
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[#39]
Quoted: On employee seconds it does. Yes. It would state right on the "seconds" label what the defect is. When I used to be able to walk right into Federal up in Anoka; I always picked 40 cal that said "visual" as the defect. It would be one of two things usually, (almost always), and I opened the boxes to check, it was either a little tar blob on the case or a small scratch. Small scratch I didn't care about. Little tar blob. I would just grab some IPA and go through the boxes and rub it off. Defect gone. Now I have a 50 rnd count box of HST 40 S&W for $5. hehe. That is one perk I sorely miss. I am sure you can imagine! View Quote |
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[#40]
Quoted: Other than "visual", what defects would be enough to reject it for commercial/military sale but still have it be good enough that it was sold to employees? View Quote |
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