Worth it to free float a barrel on a non-precision rifle?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Worth it to free float a barrel on a non-precision rifle? (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 12/9/2017 1:53:42 PM EDT

I bought my first and currently only ar15 a couple years ago without knowing a whole lot about the platform. I shopped around and eventually settled on what seemed like a pretty nice but basic GI type rifle from VDC Armory (semi-local which I thought was cool). It has a 1:8 twist, 16" barrel, quad rail, nice upper, lower and bolt. If I try with good ammo and I can get around 2 moa with it.

Anyway, curious if it's really worth floating the barrel as I'd probably also want to upgrade the trigger too as it's also pretty basic. Could be $500 or so for everything depending on what I went with. Or I could just save that for a somewhat better off the shelf rifle already floated with a decent trigger.

What do you think? With a gun like this just leave as is and plink away or invest and accurize it a bit more.

One of my better test groups.

Target analysis

Posted: 12/9/2017 2:17:17 PM EDT

[#1]

I'm of the opinion that a free float handguard is always a good idea. Before swapping the trigger.

Posted: 12/9/2017 2:28:02 PM EDT

[#2]

More than just accuracy free floats are really handy. They keep you from resting your barrel on things when shooting. They let you run a light out further. They give your iron sights a longer sight radius. They let you hold the rifle further out which gives you more control. You don't have to worry about a hot barrel touching you.

Non free float rails are fine, but a free float, especially a 15", gives you a lot of added benefits

Posted: 12/9/2017 2:30:51 PM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'm of the opinion that a free float handguard is always a good idea. Before swapping the trigger.

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Why? If you are not chasing improved accuracy what is the benefit? While I do think "it would be nice" I'm not sure it's really worth the money. I'm of the opinion that the gun is what it is and I should just live with it but part of me still wants a free floating handguard. I just don't feel like spending the money and I would need tools for this too.

Posted: 12/9/2017 2:36:32 PM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
More than just accuracy free floats are really handy. They keep you from resting your barrel on things when shooting. They let you run a light out further. They give your iron sights a longer sight radius. They let you hold the rifle further out which gives you more control. You don't have to worry about a hot barrel touching you.

Non free float rails are fine, but a free float, especially a 15", gives you a lot of added benefits

View Quote

Might as well just use a dissipator or faux dissipator if those are the benefits you're looking for. Everything you describe is a feature of a longer handguard in general.

Posted: 12/9/2017 2:47:21 PM EDT

[#5]

BTW, here is a pic it's current guise. Sight radius isn't really a concern since I have a scope and almost never shoot with irons.

Posted: 12/9/2017 5:39:17 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:

Why? If you are not chasing improved accuracy what is the benefit? While I do think "it would be nice" I'm not sure it's really worth the money. I'm of the opinion that the gun is what it is and I should just live with it but part of me still wants a free floating handguard. I just don't feel like spending the money and I would need tools for this too.

View Quote

Regarding tools, I bet you can find another member locally through the HTF that has the tools and experience to swap a guard.

Regarding costs, a basic FF tube like this is a no frills, cost effective approach to free floating a barrel.

Posted: 12/9/2017 6:24:11 PM EDT

[#7]

I know a gunsmith who can do it too but probably $60 for his time.

As for a handguard I was thinking this one from ALG but they cheaped out a bit and now you have buy the wrench separate.

Posted: 12/9/2017 6:28:48 PM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:
I'm of the opinion that a free float handguard is always a good idea. Before swapping the trigger.

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I agree.

Posted: 12/9/2017 6:39:56 PM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:
BTW, here is a pic it's current guise. Sight radius isn't really a concern since I have a scope and almost never shoot with irons.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4534/38904371992_002cc0f35a_b.jpg

View Quote

I'm convinced a railed gas block is the worst AR invention ever. So yes you should get a free float rail.

Get the ALG.

Posted: 12/9/2017 7:26:40 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
Why? If you are not chasing improved accuracy what is the benefit? While I do think "it would be nice" I'm not sure it's really worth the money. I'm of the opinion that the gun is what it is and I should just live with it but part of me still wants a free floating handguard. I just don't feel like spending the money and I would need tools for this too.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm of the opinion that a free float handguard is always a good idea. Before swapping the trigger.

Why? If you are not chasing improved accuracy what is the benefit? While I do think "it would be nice" I'm not sure it's really worth the money. I'm of the opinion that the gun is what it is and I should just live with it but part of me still wants a free floating handguard. I just don't feel like spending the money and I would need tools for this too.

There is never a good reason for ignoring the chance to improve accuracy. Your rifle appears to shoot okay, but it's not outstanding or great.

If you are satisfied, then press on.

Posted: 12/9/2017 7:49:02 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:

There is never a good reason for ignoring the chance to improve accuracy. Your rifle appears to shoot okay, but it's not outstanding or great.

If you are satisfied, then press on.

View Quote

That's kind of my point. It's a basic mil-spec rifle that shoots okay. I doubt I'd see much improvement because of the handguard. So, not really worth it, but part of me still wants to float it. If I had excess funds I do it because why not. Since I don't have excess funds I have to prioritize. However, I have to admit I'd rather get rid of the railed block and the overall quad rail system.

Posted: 12/9/2017 7:51:38 PM EDT

[#12]

Yes because it helps with POI shifts.

Posted: 12/9/2017 8:40:25 PM EDT

[#13]

I still like old schooly pic rails, so its really easy to find cheap Daniel Defense Omega rails used. Free floated while retaining the delta ring. Its a nice cheap, light and functional setup so I say why not?
The benefits might be smallish but they exist so I will take it where I can get it.

Posted: 12/10/2017 12:38:58 AM EDT

[#14]

Look into GunTec. Easy to install and cheap USA made FF rails.

Posted: 12/10/2017 1:05:04 AM EDT

[#15]

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Quoted:

I doubt I'd see much improvement because of the handguard.

View Quote

You sincerely may well be surprised at what free floating can do for accuracy...it may not make it a sub moa shooter but perhaps not far off.

Posted: 12/10/2017 1:17:07 AM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:
You sincerely may well be surprised at what free floating can do for accuracy...it may not make it a sub moa shooter but perhaps not far off.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I doubt I'd see much improvement because of the handguard.

You sincerely may well be surprised at what free floating can do for accuracy...it may not make it a sub moa shooter but perhaps not far off.

I have a BCM chrome lined barrel that will shoot to the potential of its ammo.

I have a JP tube around it.

Posted: 12/10/2017 1:29:40 AM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
BTW, here is a pic its current guise. Sight radius isn't really a concern since I have a scope and almost never shoot with irons.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4534/38904371992_002cc0f35a_b.jpg

View Quote

I would FF. That hideous gas block with MBUS is a no go.

I would also move the scope/mount forward so you could shoot NTCH. Get a better trigger for ~$100 and call it a day.

Posted: 12/10/2017 1:56:31 AM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'm of the opinion that a free float handguard is always a good idea. Before swapping the trigger.

View Quote

Can I ask why?

I feel like triggers help someone tighten up groups a lot more than a free float on a good platform of course.

Posted: 12/10/2017 2:12:31 AM EDT

[#19]

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Quoted:

Can I ask why?

I feel like triggers help someone tighten up groups a lot more than a free float on a good platform of course.

View Quote

How are you resting the rifle while shooting? On a bipod, on a bag? If you're not loading it the same for every shot then you're changing the load you're putting on the barrel. A free float rail takes the load so the barrel can be free to do what it needs, instead of being influenced by the shooter.

Posted: 12/12/2017 9:45:38 AM EDT

[#20]

With what is available now, the only negative is additional cost. There are free float rails that are just as durable as the standard hand guards and just as light. There are budget rails like ALG that minimize the cost barrier.
I prefer free floating so I don't have to worry about POI shift at all. There is enough other stuff to compensate for while shooting, POI shift is an unnecessary frustration.

Posted: 12/12/2017 10:14:07 AM EDT

[#21]

My answer to your specific question is go with a Free Float Handguard. You seem to be getting good results with the current trigger. A new trigger may improve things slightly, but you would still be limited by the impact of your current setups shortcomings. 2 MOA may very well be the best you can expect from that particular rifle.

One thing in your post that jumped out to me was that $500 you mention. Without having any experience with the brand of you current rifle, I cannot say for sure if it is already performing at its peak. I personally would lean toward investing a better equipped rifle, one with a proven Barrel. I would even consider buying a Barrel and Free Float Handguard. I think that would be the better option (Maybe even a complete Upper with a better Barrel).

Posted: 12/12/2017 2:33:15 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
My answer to your specific question is go with a Free Float Handguard. You seem to be getting good results with the current trigger. A new trigger may improve things slightly, but you would still be limited by the impact of your current setups shortcomings. 2 MOA may very well be the best you can expect from that particular rifle.

One thing in your post that jumped out to me was that $500 you mention. Without having any experience with the brand of you current rifle, I cannot say for sure if it is already performing at its peak. I personally would lean toward investing a better equipped rifle, one with a proven Barrel. I would even consider buying a Barrel and Free Float Handguard. I think that would be the better option (Maybe even a complete Upper with a better Barrel).

View Quote

I don't think I'm likely to see much accuracy improvement but if so great. It seems mostly about aesthetics and I don't like the current gas block and the current handguard has some side to side movement making it useless for mounting a sight. My cost estimate included a trigger but just for the rail and GB I'm looking at about $250 plus cost to have someone install at least the barrel nut as I don't have a way to hold it and torque it. Maybe an additional $50 for a gunsmith's time.

I think I've settled on an ALG v3 handguard but not sure about the GB. I'm thinking adjustable. Maybe the Odin clamp on. Thoughts?

Posted: 12/12/2017 2:45:03 PM EDT

[#23]

There are many variables which can lead to below average performance, one being the barrel. How do you know if the barrel is a shooter? Even if you free float a shitty barrel it will still be a shitty barrel. 2MOA is pretty poor for an AR and I bet it has more to do than your handguard. Trigger wont help that either. If it were me, I'd stick a red dot on that sucker, setup some steel/targets and shoot the shit out of it to make sure its reliable. Then I'd use it as my bedside gun, truck gun or my weekend run and gun, gun.

Save the $$ to get a better shooter from the start. You shouldn't have to spend a fortune to get a MOA or better AR.

ETA: Better yet, build a complete AR or even just the upper yourself. Then you will understand exactly how everything works. After I built my first it was the beginning of a beautiful love affair with the platform.

Posted: 12/12/2017 11:02:56 PM EDT

[#24]

No, you absolutely do not need a FF rail. The US military went into combat for over 50 years with no FF and they did fine.

That being said you should look into a Daniel Defense Omega. The installation takes about 5 minutes.

Posted: 12/13/2017 12:45:02 PM EDT

[#25]

You have 500$, you can easily set it up to be a good rifle

It seems like you're going to get an ALG V3... Good choic
I would also recommend a trigger upgrade. The Act was my favorite, I now like my geissele more.
As for gasbkock, righttobear has low profile gas blocks for 15$

Since you have 500. I would think about getting a barrel upgrade as well.
I have a couple green mountain barrels, and for the money extremely hard to beat for me.
I would look into the m8 barrel.

Edit: just a reminder, Christmas is around the corner... Sales

Posted: 12/14/2017 5:38:58 AM EDT

[#26]

In a perfect world ALL rifles would have free floated barrels. With all of the benefits and the ridiculously low price of many decent FF handguard for ARs these days, it would be silly to not let that barrel give you its best. I read an article where a guy took a so-so AR, shot for group, free floated the barrel without changing anything else, and shot for group again. Result: About 50% improvement in accuracy. Worth it. If you do it yourself the hardest part is getting a few special tools. If the mechanical part scares you, there’s even some true FF hanguards that don’t require you to remove the barrel nut.

Posted: 12/15/2017 3:22:24 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
No, you absolutely do not need a FF rail. The US military went into combat for over 50 years with no FF and they did fine.

That being said you should look into a Daniel Defense Omega. The installation takes about 5 minutes.

View Quote

Excellent advice. I put an Omega on my HD carbine in place of the standard hand guard. It is truly drop in easy. It is the same weight as the plastic handguards with heat shields. Did it make it more accurate? Can't say, but it certainly makes it more consistent. I was having POI shift depending on whether and how pressure was being applied to the hand guard. That's gone now.

The Omega has a QD swivel all the way at the back of the rail, right over the barrel nut. That way you can even tight sling it and have virtually no effect on POI.

As a quad picatinny, it is also easy to run a rail mounted weapon light or any other similar accessory. I agree that you can do those things with a non-free float quad or modular, but being free of POI shift is a good thing.

Posted: 12/16/2017 12:57:04 AM EDT

[#28]

Thanks everyone for helping me spend more money. Went ahead and ordered the ALG rail. Looks like it will be a while before it arrives though. Now to find a good adjustable gas block. Leaning toward Odin but the SLR is also nice but rather expensive.

Posted: 1/13/2018 7:28:43 PM EDT

[#29]

Thanks for helping me waste more money. Does it at least warrant internet approval?

Posted: 1/13/2018 8:12:31 PM EDT

[#30]

Looks good! Hopefully it shoots well too.

Posted: 1/13/2018 9:01:48 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
Looks good! Hopefully it shoots well too.

View Quote

Hopefully at least as well as it did. Not sure if all the pulling apart, torquing, retorquing the brake, etc. could have impacted anything. Ideally it will shoot maybe a bit better. We'll see.

Posted: 1/13/2018 11:43:28 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Even if you free float a shitty barrel it will still be a shitty barrel. 2MOA is pretty poor for an AR and I bet it has more to do than your handguard.

View Quote

2MOA is NOT poor accuracy from an off-the-shelf budget rifle. It is better than mil-spec accuracy. If 2MOA is poor, I guess I should throw my BCM upper in the trash.

Posted: 1/14/2018 10:34:27 AM EDT

[#33]

Nice job OP!

The ALG V2 is usually my first choice, mounts and works great.

So you had to buy the barrel nut wrench...no biggie, now you won't need to buy another.

Its not like it will be your only AR, lol.

Posted: 2/4/2018 9:51:23 PM EDT

[#34]

Those guys saying you won't see marked gains from a FF really didn't know what they where talking about because they didn't ask about barrel profile. If you have a government profile, getting the FF is the right choice (especially shooting from different posistions), if you don't mind the extra weight. Free floating a middleweight barrel won't see as big gains, then match trigger is the next best upgrade.

Posted: 2/4/2018 10:08:36 PM EDT

[#35]

Those guys saying you won't see marked gains from a FF wheren't giving he best advice because they didn't ask about barrel profile. If you have a government profile, getting the FF is the right choice (especially shooting from different posistions), if you don't mind the extra weight. Free floating a middleweight barrel won't see as big gains, then match trigger is the next best upgrade.

Posted: 2/22/2018 5:41:04 AM EDT

[#36]

Love the railed gas block with plastic sight on it. If its DPMS its not even the cirrect height and you cannot zero it. Thats the worst part right there.

Get a low profile gas block, a rail that covers it, and is thin enough to C clamp comfortably. Then you can ditch the angled foregrip.

EDIT. See you saw the light... now buy a weapon light and funish the project. You must have noticed how much handier the gun is by now, yes?

Posted: 2/22/2018 6:49:45 AM EDT

[#37]

I'll be the nay-sayer.

I don't think you'll see much improvement. When I did a before and after test, the results were very ammo-sensitive. Most groups improved by about 10%, but a few got worse.

a 10 shot group of 1.5" at 100 yards is about as good as it gets without highly specialized tuning.

My suggestion for order of improvements:

1. Good ammo
2. Good glass
3. Good Trigger
4. free float

Posted: 2/23/2018 1:34:06 AM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
Love the railed gas block with plastic sight on it. If its DPMS its not even the cirrect height and you cannot zero it. Thats the worst part right there.

Get a low profile gas block, a rail that covers it, and is thin enough to C clamp comfortably. Then you can ditch the angled foregrip.

EDIT. See you saw the light... now buy a weapon light and funish the project. You must have noticed how much handier the gun is by now, yes?

View Quote

Sight on the gas block worked fine. All I used before I got the scope. No issues at all.

But yes, the FF is nicer if no other reason than it's lighter and no more cheese grater.

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:52:16 AM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'll be the nay-sayer.

I don't think you'll see much improvement. When I did a before and after test, the results were very ammo-sensitive. Most groups improved by about 10%, but a few got worse.

a 10 shot group of 1.5" at 100 yards is about as good as it gets without highly specialized tuning.

My suggestion for order of improvements:

1. Good ammo
2. Good glass
3. Good Trigger
4. free float

View Quote

So what about pushing your non-freefloated forend against something like a barricade or a difficult pivot shooting position? Hes not talking about precision though he was talking about simple improvement didn't some marksmanship team in the marines or army do a test with slings showing that even just tension on a sling could send ball ammo off target?

Reality based shooting turns into a real bitch when you go from laying behind a sand bag with that non-floated barrel to standing to barricaded to slung up.

To the OP I think it is interesting that you are taking the time to hand load and you aren't worried about getting the accuracy out of the gun. I get that part and parceling out is going to cost you more due to your lack of tools but maybe it would make the most sense to start back at zero and sell that bad boy and put together something that fits what you want the rifles role to be. Or get the parts you need and make a friend with a vice a bev block and the needed tools to get it done in a quick afternoon. If it were me I would gladly do it for free.

Posted: 2/24/2018 7:37:53 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
To the OP I think it is interesting that you are taking the time to hand load and you aren't worried about getting the accuracy out of the gun. I get that part and parceling out is going to cost you more due to your lack of tools but maybe it would make the most sense to start back at zero and sell that bad boy and put together something that fits what you want the rifles role to be. Or get the parts you need and make a friend with a vice a bev block and the needed tools to get it done in a quick afternoon. If it were me I would gladly do it for free.

View Quote

I was questioning whether or not I'd see enough improvement to warrant worrying. In the end I did free float as the pic I posted above shows.

Posted: 2/24/2018 9:00:32 PM EDT

[#41]

500 bucks will buy you a FF PSA rifle kit.

Just get another rifle. Maybe one of their lowers with the EPT trigger and a free float upper.

Buy an Anderson lower and you're in business for about 550 after transfer and what not.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-5-56-nato-1-7-mid-length-nitride-13-5-keymod-moe-ept-rifle-kit-with-mbus-sight-set-516446484.html

Otherwise, build a proper rifle for accuracy and start with the barrel.

Posted: 2/26/2018 4:08:31 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'll be the nay-sayer.

I don't think you'll see much improvement. When I did a before and after test, the results were very ammo-sensitive. Most groups improved by about 10%, but a few got worse.

a 10 shot group of 1.5" at 100 yards is about as good as it gets without highly specialized tuning.

My suggestion for order of improvements:

1. Good ammo
2. Good glass
3. Good Trigger
4. free float

View Quote

I agree...I learned to shoot on an M16A1 30+ years ago and had no trouble hitting at 500+ meters without a free-float setup.

If you're shooting 300 meters or less, you don't need it, though the further you go, the more likely it would be helpful...but still not absolutely necessary.

Posted: 2/27/2018 2:43:34 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:

I agree...I learned to shoot on an M16A1 30+ years ago and had no trouble hitting at 500+ meters without a free-float setup.

If you're shooting 300 meters or less, you don't need it, though the further you go, the more likely it would be helpful...but still not absolutely necessary.

View Quote

I haven't accuracy tested yet, but I also don't think I'll see much improvement. However, I went ahead and did the FF because I like the guard better than the heavy cheese grater it had.

Posted: 2/27/2018 11:07:17 PM EDT

[#44]

I would have done the same in your case also, simply for that reason, not so much for accuracy.

Posted: 2/27/2018 11:09:33 PM EDT

[#45]

Free float everything. It's the fuel injection of rifles.

Ditch the carbs.

Posted: 3/6/2018 1:09:31 AM EDT

[#46]

A free floating barrel is one of the best ways to reduce unnecessary weight making the rifle easier to handle and more accurate to aim, not to mention improving the intrinsic accuracy, improving your options for accessorization, and simultaneously making the rifle easier to disassemble.

Literally the only reason to use a non-free floating barrel would be if you like the aesthetic look of a classic M4/M16.

Posted: 4/1/2018 3:05:59 AM EDT

[#47]

Maybe I'm late in here, but there is definitely too much of theoretical blah blah in here.

I've asked myself the very same question like the OP last year.

Pretty standard Windham 20" rifle with CL govt profile Barrel.
Tried everything between 52 to 69 gr and depending on ammo I get between 1.5 to 2 MOA repeatable.
No part changed in the rifle, except for a entry-level, non adjustable CMMG two stage trigger.

Here's what I did:
same day same conditions same ammo same everything of course. Leupold VXR scope @9x magnification. Rear squeeze bag and slow cadence.
I fired two ten round groups with the rifle tucked into a V-shaped sand bag so that it rests only on the mag well. Nothing touched the barrel nut, the handguard or the barrel.
Result: 2 times roughly 1.5 MOA
Removed the handguard, fired two more ten round groups under the same conditions like mentioned above.
Result: 2 times roughly 1.5 MOA

Conclusion: no freefloat for this rifle.
YMMV.

Oh, and Happy Easter, btw.

Posted: 4/1/2018 9:46:53 AM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
Maybe I'm late in here, but there is definitely too much of theoretical blah blah in here.

I've asked myself the very same question like the OP last year.

Pretty standard Windham 20" rifle with CL govt profile Barrel.
Tried everything between 52 to 69 gr and depending on ammo I get between 1.5 to 2 MOA repeatable.
No part changed in the rifle, except for a entry-level, non adjustable CMMG two stage trigger.

Here's what I did:
same day same conditions same ammo same everything of course. Leupold VXR scope @9x magnification. Rear squeeze bag and slow cadence.
I fired two ten round groups with the rifle tucked into a V-shaped sand bag so that it rests only on the mag well. Nothing touched the barrel nut, the handguard or the barrel.
Result: 2 times roughly 1.5 MOA
Removed the handguard, fired two more ten round groups under the same conditions like mentioned above.
Result: 2 times roughly 1.5 MOA

Conclusion: no freefloat for this rifle.
YMMV.

Oh, and Happy Easter, btw.

View Quote

The issue with free floating is not theoretical it is easily demonstrated. The hand guard itself is not causing shifts in point of impact it is force on the hand guard by way of a barricade, sling tension or even just the shooters hand pressure. There have been tests showing a slung up rifle deviating several inches from a non-tensioned slung rifle. You also list an extreme spread that the rifle showed which changed little but that gives us almost no information. What would be of importance would be the center line of a mean radius for each group and noting any change in the point of impact vs the point of aim from group one to group two.

I think it is absolutely important that we do not allow mis-information to be perpetuated on the internet. There is an definitive reason for free floating barrels and it is easily seen in quantitative testing. 100 people can test 100 similar rifle set ups with the same amount of force placed and the rifles will all show a similar shift.

Posted: 4/1/2018 12:00:41 PM EDT

[#49]

@JessBrie

Criticism partially accepted: I should have mentioned, that I didn't see any change in POI between the different groups.

However, with my non-scientific test I did prove two things:
I get the same results when shooting from "magazine monopod" or from bedding the HG on a rest.
The barrel itself is a 1.5 MOA device, regardless of whether being FF or not.

Posted: 4/1/2018 12:37:44 PM EDT

[#50]

It is not a 1.5 moa device if unequal pressure is placed throughout the group. The extreme spread could fill the entire range of the point of aim change. So if extreme left and right pressure is exerted during the 10 round group a much wider extreme spread could be seen. Again the free floating benefit is not seen in a static situation.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Worth it to free float a barrel on a non-precision rifle? (Page 1 of 2)

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