Looking to take the plunge into night vision. I want to recycle funds by unloading either my 14.5 Geissele Super Duty or my 14.5 Bcm elw mcmr just because they are pretty similar.

So with that, the 2 rifles I’ve narrowed it down for setups are my colt Socom with an elcan (can also swap to my exps3-0), or the BCM/$G with a comp m5.

If I went with my clone build, I’d get an atpial-c. If I went with other, any suggestions?

Purpose would be night shoots/classes and larping around the house when everyone is sleeping.

Thoughts?

My experience with night vision has been that you'll probably want a shorter rifle, in the 10.3" - 12.5" range, with a suppressor. 300 yards is a long shot with a laser under NVGs, no need for the extra velocity from a 14.5 vs a 10.3. A 14.5" is workable, but a full-size can on a 14.5 starts getting pretty long and unwieldy. K-length cans are nice for 14.5 and longer.  

If you're married to the 14.5, the G Super Duty is probably the 'better' upper with a more rigid rail to hold zero with the laser.

For lasers, skip the civilian power-level stuff and find a salty but functional full power PEQ15. They're all over tacswap and FB groups.

I’d unload the G rifle as you’ll probably get more $$$ from it to put towards NVG stuff.

Barrel length won’t matter too much. Hundreds of thousands of military M-4s prove this.

I’d also skip a FP PEQ until you need what it offers. With a civi PEQ, an additional IR illuminator is essential. Or get DBAL D2 and, while big and ugly, you’ll have a device that’s on par with a FP PEQ.

The night vision forum will probably be more helpful with specifics.

The two best civilian power lasers on the market at present are the DesignateIR-V and MAWL-C. The IRV is about $2k, the MAWL about $3600.

The civilian PEQ is a dog. The full power PEQ has a great laser, but the MAWL-C and DIR-V come very close due to the tech they employ. And both have better IR illumination than both PEQ options.

The DBAL-D2 is toaster size and seriously lacking compared to the MAWL-C and DIR-V. It clown shoes large, seriously.

I’d skip all the other laser options including the full power grey market stuff and go with DIR-V or MAWL-C. Both have great laser power and IR illumination.

The DIR-V is really small, lightweight, and has a great user interface.

As for the rifle, you have three nice options. I’d choose a longer handguard over a shorter handguard. And choose whichever has the least handguard deflection when loading the handguard.

My primary nvg gun has a 12.5” BRT barrel, 10” mk16 handguard, capped nx8 1-8 in 1.97 NF ultramount, and DIR-V. It had a MAWL-C on it until this week.

DesignateIR-V for sale at Arisaka Defense

MAWL-C1 for sale at Arisaka Defense

I can’t  help you decide which rifle to unload or which to use, but I can relate my NV shooting experience from just last night:

I’ve been spending time at the range with my unfilmed white phosphor (extremely high spec’s) PVS14  and my “night fighting” rifles which are set up thusly:

LMT MARS 14.5” MLC with Aimpoint T1 in a Unity Tactical FAST Mount & LMT fixed front BUIS sight (rear BUIS sight is built into UT Mount)

LMT MARS 16” MRP with Aimpoint CompM4S in Unity Tactical FAST Mount & Steiner DBAL D2 & KAC BUIS

Colt 6920 with Aimpoint PRO in GDI Absolute Mount & DD A1.5 Rear / Colt FSB

OBSERVATIONS

The T1 dot is visible (thru PVS14) when turned off!  This means the T1 doesn’t actually ever shut completely down.

The CompM4S is considerably clearer than the PRO.  In fact, the PRO requires me to turn up my gain to be functional at 100 yards.

The DBAL D2 laser is too bright (on low setting with NODS gain turned WAY down).  The illuminator is awesome. It has no issue throwing usable illumination to about 300 yards.  The laser’s intensity makes it bloom / flair when it is on a lighter surface.  

The T1 and CompM4S are in Unity Tactical FAST mounts.  The heads up style works greater in conjunction with a ACH mounted PVS14.
The PRO is in an absolute zero GDI Mount.  I’ve managed to bump the NODs  on the gun repeatedly.
Higher is better.

I ran another 500 rounds tonight thru the CompM4S and PRO rifles.  At 50 yards I was shooting 3” groups.  At 100 yards I was making hits on a 8” steel gong.  It was cloudy tonight so very little ambient gain.

I prefer “passive” to “active” until the shooting positions get weird.  Then passive becomes ineffective while active remains viable.  

The D2 was better against cardboard silhouettes, but I had 8.5x11 white paper COM on them for targeting and it was CRAZY BLOOMING on the white paper. I had to remove the paper.  The D2 Low is still very powerful.  Overall I would 100% buy the D2 again as it has a purpose.  The daylight laser is truly daylight bright and the IR illumination is awesome.  The IR laser made 100 yard hits so easy it felt like cheating.

Having both options on one rifle is really nice apart from the weight.

The AP allows me to passively shoot while the D2 allows for active.

Ironically, the passive requires more weapon handling skills / marksmanship as it is basically just shooting the rifle while wearing NODs.  The “active” laser can be fired from any position without any “skill” per se.  POI is where the dot lands.

Using the D2 I was able to get a 1” 5 shot group off the bench (front rest only) with 1980’s surplus M193.  This is surprising good as the bloom on a paper target is harsh.  The targets are 8.5x11 white paper with five 2” black circles printed on it.  When the laser was on the black circle it would lose the bloom and I would squeeze off the round.

My biggest recommendation is to not worry as much about which rifle.  Be more concerned with which NOD.

A PVS14 mounted on a helmet is a great starting point.  Research what the various specs mean and then buy a hand selected tube that has the best specs you can afford.  Have the dealer assemble it into a Carson housing with manual gain control.

You 100% want:

Gen 3
White Phosphor
Unfilmed

In terms of the specs … do your research and buy the very best you can afford.

My specs are:

L3 Harris
Unflimed
White Phosphor

FOM: 2527
SNR: 35.1
Lum Gain: 60263
EBI: 0.8
Photocathode Sensitivity: 2243
Halo: 0.8
Center Res: 72

I have one “pepper” spot on outer edge of Zone 2 / inner edge of Zone 3.

The tube is a rock star.  It was definitely worth the extra investment.

I’d love to see a picture of that group and corresponding target.

If starting from scratch right now, the DBAL-D2 is not what I’d buy. The DesignateIR-V is small, light, has great controls, and is the same retail cost as the D2.

Not for nothin but that DesignateIR-V looks like shite.

Put your red dot atop the detach carry handle, and get a surefire 300v for extra lum and call it done.  Save your dough amigo.

This must be why so many are suggesting the most expensive items here.

If I could go back I probably (not 100% on this as I haven't spent enough time trying to shoot rollover prone under a vehicle with NODS, etc) wouldn't purchase a LAM.  I would just get a SureFire with IR capabilities.  The laser is much less useful than the illumination.  Passive works great except for odd shooting positions.

Absolutely!  When the neighbor's IR security camera catch a glimpse of me in my boxers (sans any other clothing) with bed-head sticking out from under my multicam ACH / PVS14 I wanna look cool. RULE NO. 1 Always Look Cool (while Larping).

The recommendation to stick a RDS on a carry handle and add a Vampire is solid.  That's a quick way to get there, but you may find yourself bumping into the handle with your NV.  I bumped into the DD A1.5 on one of my night-fighting-carbines several times, but the AP PRO in front of it is mounted low (absolute zero GDI mount) so I had to assume a normal check weld. With the stock extended all the way out it works but not my favorite.  Being on top of a carry handle would probably fix this issue (especially if the mount positioned the RDS forward).  There is 1/2" or so between the PVS14 and your eye.  I'm guessing the PVS14 is about 4 to 4.5" long.  That means you need about 6" of clearance from eye to optic to allow for 1" of recoil / handling movement.

Anyway, melt the CC, get gucci gear, and LARP in style.

It’s great.

You certainly could do that. But there is no reason to cheap out when you’re already spending thousands on nvg. The DIR-V is so low profile and light weight, you don’t penalize yourself re: weight/size. And I want the option for passive red dot use and IR laser aiming.