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Posted: 1/16/2021 6:33:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 10:32:24 AM EST by Cycolgist]
I am not seriously thinking of opening an ammo company. But what would it take to open an ammo manufacturing company? Assuming things were normal and components and primers were available. Smaller Companies HSM, or any smaller ammo manufacture and plenty of other places had to start somewhere.

What would the equipment needed? I doubt they use hand presses so automated I assume.  

I think if we had a shooters Co-Op similar to what farmers use to have large purchasing power of many shooters, which is owned by the shooters?

If a group combined their buying power 2,000 members (40 from each state) providing $5K that would be $10,000,000. That surely enough money to start I assume.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 6:42:29 PM EST
Millions of dollars.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 6:45:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2021 6:46:08 PM EST by Cycolgist]
Great insight, thats why i mentioned Co-Op. What would one need to buy with the millions of dollars regarding equipment besides cases, powder, primer, and bullets? can you tell me about the equipment needed who makes it etc..
Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 6:52:45 PM EST
Assuming you would want to control your supply chain billions
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 6:55:03 PM EST
I assume you are talking about manufacturing your own components, brass, bullets, primers, powder etc, and assembling commercially.

I have no idea but that's a shitload of investment $$$. And I assume you are talking about something "smaller" like Black Hills and not Olin.

And a week after you are up and running, Biden and the gang impose a 1000% ammo tax and limit private sales to 10 rounds per month. Then what?

I think a large scale reloading company would be more reasonable but again you would be at the mercy of the supply chain. Try and buy 100K primers now days.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 6:59:47 PM EST
I dont understand why the current manufacturers are not getting new faster manufacturing machines, looking at manufacturing videos their machines look old.  New faster machines would probably pay for themselves in a couple of months.  People say they will not be needed later but has this been happening every 3-4 years lately, plus it would allow cheaper manufacturing cost.

Link Posted: 1/16/2021 7:02:50 PM EST
Probably cheaper to strike a deal with China.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 7:08:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2021 7:15:00 PM EST by Cycolgist]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I assume you are talking about manufacturing your own components, brass, bullets, primers, powder etc, and assembling commercially.

I have no idea but that's a shitload of investment $$$. And I assume you are talking about something "smaller" like Black Hills and not Olin.

And a week after you are up and running, Biden and the gang impose a 1000% ammo tax and limit private sales to 10 rounds per month. Then what?

I think a large scale reloading company would be more reasonable but again you would be at the mercy of the supply chain. Try and buy 100K primers now days.
View Quote


Like i said if things were not in short supply, starting something like Blackhills or hunting shack munitions size new and reloaded rounds.

I mean buying brass,powder,bullets, primers already made from another manufacture.  The purpose of the Co-op is to sell to the members of the co-op, not the general public.

As far Biden imposing something, well its a risk spread across the board of thousands of people vs. just a handful of people.  Biden hasnt even taken office and we have nothing we can affordably shoot, why not risk it?
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 7:09:59 PM EST
China?,  if you can import it,  don't understand why we are not seeing all kinds of foreign ammo and primers.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 7:13:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2021 7:15:27 PM EST by AvalonRifle]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By IdahoDoug:
Probably cheaper to strike a deal with China.
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Agreed.  It's a lot easier to spin up a manufacturing operation when you have your government putting up the working capital.

You ain't gonna get that kind of financial support from the U.S. government.

You could also get it drop shipped to a freight company in Venezuela and bring it north by truck.  It would save you a shit load of money in excise taxes.

 Although I'm not suggesting that you break the law.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 7:17:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2021 9:30:58 PM EST by Cycolgist]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AvalonRifle:

Agreed.  It's a lot easier to spin up a manufacturing operation when you have your government putting up the working capital.

You ain't gonna get that kind of financial support from the U.S. government.

You could also get it drop shipped to a freight company in Venezuela and bring it north by truck.  It would save you a shit load of money in excise taxes.

 Although I'm not suggesting that you break the law.
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I know your joking but that would be illegal probably, not interested in that.

Link Posted: 1/16/2021 10:43:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Cycolgist:


I know your joking but that would be illegal probably, not interested in that.

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Yes, that would be seriously illegal.  At least in the U.S.   Rest of the world?  Who knows.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 1:09:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By snowman357:
I dont understand why the current manufacturers are not getting new faster manufacturing machines, looking at manufacturing videos their machines look old.  New faster machines would probably pay for themselves in a couple of months.  People say they will not be needed later but has this been happening every 3-4 years lately, plus it would allow cheaper manufacturing cost.

View Quote



Too many variables.  Across the board.  2018 and 2019 ammo was cheap and abundant.   Couldn't hardly sell it without sales.

Toured the CCI plant here in ID, and talked to one of their engineers.  They do use some very old equipment.   They also use some very modern equipment.   The old equipment just worked.  The new equipment required babysitters and wasn't that reliable or efficient.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 9:48:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2021 10:36:00 AM EST by TGH456E]
OP:

I'll answer your question seriously, though in the next 3 months or so, you might get a radically different answer.  

To start a business like that you'd need atleast a couple hundred thousand to start, assuming your comment of component availabilty.

- A Building...
- INSURANCE...... (unfortunately once someone buggers a rifle or themselves with the ammo, watchout.....lawsuits a-comin).
- equipment :  Dillion 1050's or better..........  for sure.
- components....  

To be honest, It wouldn't work.
Realistically to pay for the building, insurance and equipment, you'd need a large member base to make it affordable for each member.
But the reality is VERY few shooters truly shoot enough to justify that membership fee.  

10? years ago, I knew a guy that would rent out his Dillon gear to shooters.  
He'd sit there and advise you (so you didn't $%^& up his gear) and otherwise you'd go-to-town.  
That would be your best bet.............  
BUT even prior to the current nonsense...........  
THE LIABILTY OF THAT NOW WOULD BE INSANE..........  

   
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 9:53:11 AM EST
Do people here not understand red tape on local, state and federal levels?
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 9:58:57 AM EST
How Ammo Is Made - Go Inside Remington's Ammunition Plant
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 3:40:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2021 3:43:50 PM EST by Cycolgist]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Do people here not understand red tape on local, state and federal levels?
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No I don't know the red tape is, which is why i ask someone informed like yourself to educate me.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 5:39:39 PM EST
Insurance, bonding. $$$$$.  You can start with a single press, nobody cares. They want to see you're BONDING. Fast production for the masses or precision and slow.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 10:56:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 9:58:30 AM EST
I think what you’d ultimately find is that some parts wouldn’t be terribly difficult to get going and some equipment to do things like draw cases would be all but impossible to get.

Here’s an example, albeit a little bit different: go try to find a sine-bar rifling machine. This is what they use to make cut rifled barrel blanks. The “big guys” doing this are using ancient machines(think WWI-WW2). These machines are just not available. Sure, they rebuild the periodically. But for As old a design as it is, it’s not like they’re just laying around for sale either.  The machines to actually make some of the components are just like that.

Though, if you’re not going to make your own cases, that would alleviate a lot of that. The trade off there is obviously that then you’re at the mercy of whoever you’re getting them from.

But, bullets could be done. Obviously cast bullets are not terribly difficult if you wish to use them. You can make jacketed bullets at home if you’re so inclined(which reminds me, I need to figure out my swaging stuff). Corbins sells the equipment(anything from hobby level to actual commercial stuff), though there are probably others as well.

I honestly have no idea where to begin with making powder, if you wanted to go that far. Primers, the first step would be a stamping machine that stamps the primer cups and anvils out of the material. That wouldn’t be too difficult to get. As for the priming compound, and the machine to insert it, that I don’t know. Again, if you’re not actually making your own, this becomes easier, but then you’re at the mercy of your suppliers.

Maybe the answer here is to start with what you know you can get-like bullet making equipment. Components on the whole are hard to get, so even just making bullets could be profitable (or one would think, at least). Then start looking at expanding.

I’m not sure any of that helps, but hopefully helps you a little.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:18:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 10:24:17 AM EST by Rigian]
Im fairly sure that you need to go through some pretty significant (potentially years worth) of government approvals. In the same way a gun manufacture has to have different parts approved by the ATF and other three letter departments, ammo makers have to have each product approved as well (i think). You're talking legal fees up the wazoo. Equipment would be the least of your worries.

Now if you were able to link arms with an existing major manufacture to open a new location, that might be something worth looking into.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:22:34 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mace2364:
I think what you’d ultimately find is that some parts wouldn’t be terribly difficult to get going and some equipment to do things like draw cases would be all but impossible to get.


View Quote



Thank you for the information, the information you supplied is new to me.. So it seems many of the manufactures are making their own cases, powder,and primers and bullets themselves? If that is the case then this may be unobtainable. I was thinking of an ammo maker loading components from a contractor minus the possible exception of bullets and maybe cases.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:28:18 AM EST
Check out grindhardammo on Instagram. They post videos of the machines running all the time. It can give you an idea of what it takes.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:30:36 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rigian:
Im fairly sure that you need to go through some pretty significant (potentially years worth) of government approvals. In the same way a gun manufacture has to have different parts approved by the ATF and other three letter departments, ammo makers have to have each product approved as well. You're talking legal fees up the wazoo. Equipment would be the least of your worries.

Now if you were able to link arms with an existing major manufacture to open a new location, that might be something worth looking into.
View Quote



The purpose of the cooperative is provide ammunition to shooters I think as a for profit company linking with a establish company would be an avenue to pursue.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:36:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 10:38:30 AM EST by Cycolgist]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TGH456E:
OP:

I'll answer your question seriously, though in the next 3 months or so, you might get a radically different answer.  

To start a business like that you'd need atleast a couple hundred thousand to start, assuming your comment of component availabilty.

- A Building...
- INSURANCE...... (unfortunately once someone buggers a rifle or themselves with the ammo, watchout.....lawsuits a-comin).
- equipment :  Dillion 1050's or better..........  for sure.
- components....  

To be honest, It wouldn't work.
Realistically to pay for the building, insurance and equipment, you'd need a large member base to make it affordable for each member.
But the reality is VERY few shooters truly shoot enough to justify that membership fee.  

10? years ago, I knew a guy that would rent out his Dillon gear to shooters.  
He'd sit there and advise you (so you didn't $%^& up his gear) and otherwise you'd go-to-town.  
That would be your best bet.............  
BUT even prior to the current nonsense...........  
THE LIABILTY OF THAT NOW WOULD BE INSANE..........  

   
View Quote


If a group combined their buying power 2,000 members (40 from each state) providing $5K that would be $10,000,000. I consider 5k an obtainable amount from many, maybe not all though. If an established member decides to opt out they may transfer their membership. Unused ammo does not need to be purchased on a monthly basis. Waived ammo can be sold to other members or even commercailly sold to contractors like a sub contractor of ammo  buying a GE washer made by Electrolux corp. See what I am saying.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:46:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 10:47:27 AM EST by Rigian]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Cycolgist:



The purpose of the cooperative is provide ammunition to shooters I think as a for profit company linking with a establish company would be an avenue to pursue.
View Quote
I will say, If more people were making good, solid, reliable basic ammo in the major calibers, I think they would make buckets of money. In fact I'm not sure why the major manufactures don't significantly cut back (or stop completely) making the odd ball rounds and put all their energy into producing the major rounds only. And I don't think tons of people right now are interested in the weird and expensive specialty self defense rounds that split into 12 miniature spears and explode on contact, then kill you instantly from COVID. Just make the basics to satisfy the demand.

My opinion.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:50:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 10:51:47 AM EST by Eric802]
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 12:42:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Eric802:


Shut up and take my money.
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Originally Posted By Eric802:

Originally Posted By Rigian:
And I don't think tons of people right now are interested in the weird and expensive specialty self defense rounds that split into 12 miniature spears and explode on contact, then kill you instantly from COVID.


Shut up and take my money.
Yeah right! I'm hoarding my last twelve cases of Super Spear ++P- Dragon COVID rounds forever!!
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 2:34:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Eric802:The best you're going to do as some kind of coop would probably be some Dillon 1050's, and there's no way you'd keep them fed with components now or anytime soon.
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I had some friends who did set up a small shop, got the licenses, insurance, etc. etc. and installed about two dozen coaxial driven 1050's, all back in early 2013 in that ammo shortage.   Components and powder were indeed their problem.  Made it into production finally, but failed in the distribution/sales model because they were avid reloaders and not good business people.  It went belly up within a year.

Their plan had been to sell regionally to the LGS, but without any understanding of how those stores worked with their distributors, the door never opened wide enough for them once the components were not in such short supply.  By the end of the year the big manufacturers were crushing them on price and that was the end.  Chapter 13 and the agent of the court sold off the Dillons and their remaining kegs of titegroup and trays of primers...

Link Posted: 1/18/2021 4:40:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JHans7663:



Too many variables.  Across the board.  2018 and 2019 ammo was cheap and abundant.   Couldn't hardly sell it without sales.

Toured the CCI plant here in ID, and talked to one of their engineers.  They do use some very old equipment.   They also use some very modern equipment.   The old equipment just worked.  The new equipment required babysitters and wasn't that reliable or efficient.
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Originally Posted By JHans7663:
Originally Posted By snowman357:
I dont understand why the current manufacturers are not getting new faster manufacturing machines, looking at manufacturing videos their machines look old.  New faster machines would probably pay for themselves in a couple of months.  People say they will not be needed later but has this been happening every 3-4 years lately, plus it would allow cheaper manufacturing cost.




Too many variables.  Across the board.  2018 and 2019 ammo was cheap and abundant.   Couldn't hardly sell it without sales.

Toured the CCI plant here in ID, and talked to one of their engineers.  They do use some very old equipment.   They also use some very modern equipment.   The old equipment just worked.  The new equipment required babysitters and wasn't that reliable or efficient.


Yes 100%. The old equipment needs baby sitters too. I know for a fact since that's what I do.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 4:44:15 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By billbotts:


I had some friends who did set up a small shop, got the licenses, insurance, etc. etc. and installed about two dozen coaxial driven 1050's, all back in early 2013 in that ammo shortage.   Components and powder were indeed their problem.  Made it into production finally, but failed in the distribution/sales model because they were avid reloaders and not good business people.  It went belly up within a year.

Their plan had been to sell regionally to the LGS, but without any understanding of how those stores worked with their distributors, the door never opened wide enough for them once the components were not in such short supply.  By the end of the year the big manufacturers were crushing them on price and that was the end.  Chapter 13 and the agent of the court sold off the Dillons and their remaining kegs of titegroup and trays of primers...

View Quote

Excellent story. It goes to show that you can be an excellent ammo reloader/maker OR you can be an excellent business person. But it's hard to be both. Like a fantastic chef opening a restaurant and going bankrupt in a year.

Granted the co-op aspect is different and may make things easier at least at first. But it's hard to get dozens or hundreds of people to agree to anything much less a complex operation.

OP, I think you should try to start "small" in maybe getting into one element of the production: Making bullets or brass or maybe just reloading. Once that is successful, branch out to the next one. But I suspect making powder or primers will be the impossible hurdle.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 11:05:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 11:09:07 PM EST by Cycolgist]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

Excellent story. It goes to show that you can be an excellent ammo reloader/maker OR you can be an excellent business person. But it's hard to be both. Like a fantastic chef opening a restaurant and going bankrupt in a year.

Granted the co-op aspect is different and may make things easier at least at first. But it's hard to get dozens or hundreds of people to agree to anything much less a complex operation.

OP, I think you should try to start "small" in maybe getting into one element of the production: Making bullets or brass or maybe just reloading. Once that is successful, branch out to the next one. But I suspect making powder or primers will be the impossible hurdle.
View Quote



That makes sense if I start reloading. Many businesses started of as hobbies. I do think on the co-op, it would be run like a company with a "board of directors" and others as "shareholders/memebers". With the board having the "final word" for how things will be run would make sense. Wages for employees who make the ammo would be paid out by ammo sales to third parties, or small monthly dues .
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 11:09:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Polarbear31:


Yes 100%. The old equipment needs baby sitters too. I know for a fact since that's what I do.
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Tell me about your job, and who you work for please.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 12:25:10 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Cycolgist:


If a group combined their buying power 2,000 members (40 from each state) providing $5K that would be $10,000,000. I consider 5k an obtainable amount from many, maybe not all though. If an established member decides to opt out they may transfer their membership. Unused ammo does not need to be purchased on a monthly basis. Waived ammo can be sold to other members or even commercailly sold to contractors like a sub contractor of ammo  buying a GE washer made by Electrolux corp. See what I am saying.
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Originally Posted By Cycolgist:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:
OP:

I'll answer your question seriously, though in the next 3 months or so, you might get a radically different answer.  

To start a business like that you'd need atleast a couple hundred thousand to start, assuming your comment of component availabilty.

- A Building...
- INSURANCE...... (unfortunately once someone buggers a rifle or themselves with the ammo, watchout.....lawsuits a-comin).
- equipment :  Dillion 1050's or better..........  for sure.
- components....  

To be honest, It wouldn't work.
Realistically to pay for the building, insurance and equipment, you'd need a large member base to make it affordable for each member.
But the reality is VERY few shooters truly shoot enough to justify that membership fee.  

10? years ago, I knew a guy that would rent out his Dillon gear to shooters.  
He'd sit there and advise you (so you didn't $%^& up his gear) and otherwise you'd go-to-town.  
That would be your best bet.............  
BUT even prior to the current nonsense...........  
THE LIABILTY OF THAT NOW WOULD BE INSANE..........  

   


If a group combined their buying power 2,000 members (40 from each state) providing $5K that would be $10,000,000. I consider 5k an obtainable amount from many, maybe not all though. If an established member decides to opt out they may transfer their membership. Unused ammo does not need to be purchased on a monthly basis. Waived ammo can be sold to other members or even commercailly sold to contractors like a sub contractor of ammo  buying a GE washer made by Electrolux corp. See what I am saying.


I do, sortta, see what you are saying.  
BUT:
I assumed when you said Co-op that we (as members of said co-op) would do the work to make "our" ammo.
And you are making this a nation-wide thing.....  

So I pay my money and you ship me ammo?
Then why not simply get a group-buy going ...... get a say 1,000,000 round order from XXX company???
Then dole it out to the paying members?  
(And skip all the machines etc etc)

Or I send you my components and YOU (or your team) make it and send it back?
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 5:13:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By snowman357:
China?,  if you can import it,  don't understand why we are not seeing all kinds of foreign ammo and primers.
View Quote



Code of Federal Regulations 27 CFR Part 447 deals in why we don't import arms and ammunition from China and Russia.  (learned a lot trying to import from Afghanistan)

To make ammunition first you need a 06 FFL (manufacture of ammunition license) $30.00 from ATF.   Don't remember if that was yearly or 3 yrs.  (just looked at this last week)

Local/state license, insurance, building and machinery.  For components not hard to make your own bullets either cast or jacketed.  Forming brass cartridge cases going to take extruding the brass and forming.  Powder and primers, need special vaults and land away from everything.  Priming compound very pressure sensitive/explosive.

You might be able to start small locally with a few shooting clubs and work as a second job.  Won't pay for itself with just a small crew.  Build/expand when you can.

CD
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 6:04:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Cycolgist:

Tell me about your job, and who you work for please.
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Join date. Post count. You aren't suspicious at all are you?
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 6:15:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 6:15:48 AM EST by ErikS]
How about how some large companies purchase fuel?


Southwest Airlines for example used to negotiate fuel at a set price by contract. Because they purchased bulk quantities when other companies were getting hit by fuel cost some spikes they continued at the original cost.  They gambled but the assumption was they would come out ahead in the long run.  

Shooters pooling their purchasing power at a set price and quantity is a better cooperative.  Small electricy companies do this all over the nation so it isn't unprecedented. My guess is  ammo companies would balk at it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:02:10 AM EST
My local range got an 02/07 and reloads ammunition for range rental guns.  It helps keep them in business
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:04:01 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By whiskerz:
My local range got an 02/07 and reloads ammunition for range rental guns.  It helps keep them in business
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Most likely the same range my uncle often shoots at.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:31:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Pants223:

Join date. Post count. You aren't suspicious at all are you?
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I appreciate and understand you paranoia.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:06:18 AM EST
Imho.  You would be better off making Coated Bullets.  You just need a casting set up and a way to coat them.  

Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:26:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 10:26:38 AM EST by Eric802]
I think this has run its course.
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