I'm upgrading our HD blasters.  Everything has lights and RDS right now, but looking to step up capability, while streamlining the profile of the guns.

I still have some older school VTAC mounts with Surefires and my brother (RIP) had TLR-1 and VTAC/Surefire on our HD carbines.

I'm looking for:

* Extremely low profile at either 10, 12, or 2
* Intuitive activation
* High lumen output 1200-1600 preferably
* Minimal parts count, less chance of mounting solution failure

If I go 12 o'clock, I don't want to intrude into the sight picture that much, so I'm looking for something pretty low profile.  TLR-1 isn't that bad.

If I go 10 or 2, I want that sucker tucked in tight to the handguard, not a catch-me, spank-me snag hazard.

I prefer integrated mount with the body so there are no extra pieces than necessary.

Pressure activation on the unit is preferable.

Here's what I'm looking at so far:

1. The new OWL in FDE - No experience with it, no current end-user feedback, but seems to fit the bill for what I'm looking for.  I like the toolless features and switchable caps, integrated pressure switch, low profile, and QD head.

2. Maybe one of the Arisaka combos, but I'm a bit leary of anything MLOK or KM attached.  I've seen both KM and MLOK come loose in my courses.  You can Loc-tite stuff down, but LT is a polymer and when subjected to wide temperature gradients, it will contract and expand.  I've seen a lot of people with quizzical looks on their faces who made sure their stuff was tightened down, only for it to come loose shooting in the cold, with barrels heating up, then cooling down.  It's why I lean towards a 12 o'clock position on the dedicated top rail, versus screwing things in on 2/3/9/10 for offset at 2 & 10.

3 & 9 o'clock positions are juts not practical for clearing rooms, as they snag, have a clumsy profile, and don't allow for good support hand hold on the handguard.  I've seen several lights shear off clearing rooms for real to ever mess with 3/9 again, but that's all we had back in the day of RAS/M4.

For those of you who have been chasing this rabbit for a while professionally, what kind of set-ups are you using and can you post pics.

Would prefer this to be responses from people who have been doing this for a while with high round count, multiple years, night and low-light.

Not trying to be a turd, but literally every guy I know that’s in some kind of special unit or swat mounts 3/9

What you said about snagging makes me think of when I do bump doorways with mine though.

I’m just curious why I almost see no guys with experience using 12/6.

Again, just being inquisitive.

Edit:  I’ve never seen a properly mounted mlok come off. I’d be curious to see how the ones you saw fail were mounted. The only reason I mention this is because some companies make mlok mounts that get your light REAL tight to the rail and the 11/1 positions.

We used to do that too because there weren't many options back then.  When you see guys in your unit shear lights off of the rail in the house, it sticks in your memory.

My set-up circa late 2002-2003:  PEQ-2A at 12 on KAC RAS, Surefire G2 with IR cover at 3 in Weaver ring, Surefire body ground down to fit the ring.  Ok for RH corners, not for LH so much.


Back in the early 2000s, what I did with the KAC RAS was drill some holes in the bottom heat shield so people could mount at 4:30 and interface with the light using VFG that had a pressure pad in it, rigged with a switch to their PEQ-2.

As to current trends with people that have been chasing this rabbit for a while:

12 o'clock Surefire



12 o'clock with integral front sight



2 o'clock

Makes perfect sense. One of those things where you say, duh....why didn’t I think of that sooner.

I need to do a thread on the evolution of OTN tools and weapons interface from the first developments that came about, and how that trickled outwards from there.

Right before the M4A1 existed, there was already a pretty capable set-up with the FSP-cut 12" float tube on Colt 723s.

They had a modified A2 grip VFG with aviation-type push-buttons for both the Surefire and PAQ-4C IR pointer and conformally-routed wiring for the light and IR laser that wasn't a real snag hazard.

With the emergence of the KAC RAS, RIS, and MRE, the dedicated 12/3/6/9 rails steered people away from where the lights really needed to be, aside from the 12 o'clock rail.

I've never liked the 3 and 9 o'clock positions for much of anything really.

The problem with 3/9 positions is every time you get in and out of vehicles, or even just grab the gun, there is potential for snag, including on your sling.

Then when you need to get into a hasty position behind some type of concealment or cover, you end up with increased back-lighting considerations, excessive exposure, limited articulation within apertures and damaged construction structures, as well as the light getting caught.

12 o'clock solves those problems pretty well.  2/10 are not too far from it.  The benefit of the pistol weapon lights at 12 with toggle activation is no need for wires, as long as it's just a KISS carbine for HD and no IR laser requirement.  Once you add the IR laser requirement, it usually offsets the weapon light.  With 2 different components that were made without consideration for each other, you now have multiple battery boxes, device interface, and mounting considerations that increase the bulk and weight on the front of the gun.

It changes your whole approach to holding the carbine with the support hand, and really gets tricky when you switch hands for RH/LH corner and barricade aperture approaches.

So I snagged my bare M&P 15-22 and stuck my olight Valkyrie on it at the 12 position and man, you’re right. It’s fucking awesome. Obviously I didn’t do any drills but around the house it really seemed to just work.

Problem is, like you mentioned, my main 10.5 AR has a LAM which kind of limits my options. I could try the 6 position but that seems like it might cast a shadow upward.

This is the best I’ve come up with so far, the Surefire is as close to the lam as I can get it:


And yes, that’s the new 600df and yes, it curbstomps. Lol

If I was using the DBAL-D2 like you have on the right, I would consider tucking my white light up to 2 o'clock if I could do it, but the SF integral mount won't allow that.

With the DBAL-D2's massive IR illuminator on the left, the right side is really the only space for a tucked White Light.

Would be cool to have an integral DBAL/WL mount option that sucked everything up together, only problem is the throw lever is there, so no dice.

Another option would be to pull the DBAL back enough on the 12 o'clock rail, and mount a WL at 12 in front of it, as the lasers and illuminator are to the L & R.

That would help manage the balance better as well, but would then relocate pressure switch.

These are the problems with multiple device mounting and interface, because nobody has approached it from a clean slate.

We had the same issues with Land Warrior, where we had several additional Electro-Optical and electronic components installed in the M4s:

* LRF linked to Helmet-Mounted Display
* Combat Camera linked to Helmet-Mounted Display
* Digital Compass to HMD
* Ruggedized Finger Pad to vest-worn Comms/GPS/Computer
* Cable routing
* Thermal Weapons Sight

On top of:

* White Light
* RDS/CCO
* PAQ-4 and PEQ-2

These M4s don't have everything on them, but you can see how it was getting a bit crazy.

The most imporant question when you say low light is whether or not you mean IR lasers.   If so, there are a fairly limited number of ways to work a light around a PEQ-15 or DBAL without just slapping it on at 3 and calling it good.

The Arisaka offset Scout mounts are the best I've found for tucking a light up under a laser; they have multiple mounting hole options.   Not sure why Surefire would make an offset mount that didn't work for that, since those not running lasers typically aren't as picky about the positioning.

You might want to hit up the weapon-mounted IR laser pic thread over in the NV section.

For my HD stuff, I'm just looking to improve and streamline the white lights and interface.

For coyote and hog hunting, I'm looking at FLIR/IR overlay with some features like the MAWL, but the next generation.

Currently, the industry isn't approaching OTN aiming device integration with the kind of mindset where I think it should be.

Holy fuck.

How much do those(first pic) weigh?  Either way I’d love to experience carrying/shooting one of those.

Shit, I’d love to experience what you’ve done it sounds like. Unfortunately a mostly metal spine prevented me from joining.

You’re right though, it would seem we are at the crossroads of having awesome tech that is consuming all of the real estate on our rails. I’m not sure if time is the answer as everything we have now should shrink(as with all tech) or a complete redesign of a gun specificity made to house all of this stuff needs to be made.

I still think the price is outrageous but I think you’re on the right track with the new cloud defense light.

The Carbon Fiber bodies of the TWS and Camera made them actually pretty lightweight, just bulky and ungainly for maneuverability, but with some very real capabilities added to the Platoon.

A funny thing that happened once the Airborne Land Warrior Test Platoon turned in "all" the gear was that they started using their Javelin CLUs whenever set up in the defense to detect anyone approaching the perimeter.  It was interesting to see how the thinking changed, but that's really a NV/OTN discussion well beyond what I'm doing with some KISS carbines for HD.

Speaking strictly of a light only, it's of little consequence where you mount it. I've used multiples around the clock. Not a "must have" preference but I prefer at 6.  Being a lefty primarily, on my varmint-killing 15-22, I have a TLR-1 HL at 3 and visible laser at 6. Works out very well. Used often during the warmer months.

Light at 6 doesn't work on barricade or position where you are creeping up to observe-makes you have to lift higher to get clearance.

You can tilt the carbine 90° L or R to mitigate that, but a 12 o'clock position makes that unnecessary.

I also find 6 o'clock a bit more snag-prone compared with 12, since 12 is right where a front sight would be anyway.

I’m mostly just a guy.  But the Thorntail works really well on my simple work rifle.