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Posted: 4/11/2018 2:47:05 PM EDT
If you are able to share any insight, your help would be greatly appreciated :-)
I have just built an AR15 that'll fulfill the role of a close to mid-range SHTF carbine. The only question now is what optic to outfit it with. The options I've come across so far are: -Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6x -Steinier T5Xi 1-5x24 -US Optics SVS 1-6x -Leupold Mark 6 1-6x and VX-6HD 1-6x I'm open to others as well. Weight is an issue to balance with durability, as my AR builds need to be *relatively* lightweight due to medical necessity. Because of that, I've excluded optics such as the Vortex Viper PST Gen II since it's even heavier than the Razor Gen II-e. Thank you in advance for any help. |
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I would replace the T5xi with the M6xi, which had a modified version submitted to the USSOCOM squad variable contract.
Others: NF ATACR 1-8 NF NX8 1-8 SB 1-8 pm II Short Dot CC CQB I am sure someone will mention the Kahles. |
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I would replace the T5xi with the M6xi, which had a modified version submitted to the USSOCOM squad variable contract. View Quote |
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Any of what has been mentioned should serve that role well, maybe take a look at the trijicon vcog or accupoint as well. Have not studied their weight however. Sounds like you’ve got a solid budget to work with so I think you’ll be squared away with whatever you choose. Cheers
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Quoted: Thanks! Just out of curiosity, why do you discount the T5xi? I would only say that the M6xi is both slightly heavier and much more expensive than the Razor. For almost $3,000 it would need to be vastly better performing :-) View Quote The list I gave was not considering price. The price to performance ratio will always be owned by the Razor Gen II IMO. Per Steiner: "T5Xi vs M5Xi = T5Xi’s are built on the same platform as the M5Xi’s. The M5Xi supports rigorous international military standards. The T5Xi scope line services 95% of the US market needs including law enforcement and agency use. There are reticle option differences between the line as well. Same glass, same coatings." Steiner M-series is said to have much superior glass to T-series. |
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IMO a 'combat' optic would pin durability and reliability as the most important characteristics.
So I'd think your list would be something like: Trijicon VCOG SB 1-8 PM2 NF ATACR 1-8 Steiner M5XI (or M6XI) USO SVS 1-6 Elcan 1/4 Elcan 1/3/9 If you really wanted a 'combat' optic or some 'shtf' oriented optic, you're still probably better off with a acog/rmr or reddot/magnifier combo. But if money was no object, SB 1-8 PM2 for sure. Aside from the quality and reputation, it's got a host of neat features the others can't match. |
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The Razor GII 1-6x has been, and is currently used by some of our SF personnel.
My only knock on it, is that it's a pretty heavy SOB. That said, you could use it as a club if you run out of ammo. The Kahles K16i is a favorite in 3-gun, and those rigs take some rough handling (tossed into bins, knocked around accidentally). It's quite a bit lighter than my Razor. As to whether it's as tough as the Razor? I don't know. I haven't beat on either one enough. They both have excellent glass. I REALLY like the 'fin' on the K16i for fast magnification adjustments (bought an add-on for the Razor, but not needing to spend the extra is great). The K16i's horseshoe dot is VERY fast at close ranges. Both have daylight bright settings for the illumination, But neither one has true NVG settings, if that matters. I prefer Vortex's step illumination, where every alternate click is 'Off'. That way, you can set it to your preferred brightness, and 1 click in either direction, turns it Off. You can then turn it 1 click, straight to your preferred brightness setting (i.e. always turn counterclockwise for Off, then you know 1 click clockwise is your preferred brightness). The Kahles uses a continuously variable brightness knob, which means you have to always turn it all the way until it clicks, for Off, and dial it to the desires brightness every time, when turning it On. For a combat/night patrol optic, Kahles has an auto-Off after 4 hours IIRC. Don't remember what Vortex does. |
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The Razor GII 1-6x has been, and is currently used by some of our SF personnel. My only knock on it, is that it's a pretty heavy SOB. That said, you could use it as a club if you run out of ammo. The Kahles K16i is a favorite in 3-gun, and those rigs take some rough handling (tossed into bins, knocked around accidentally). It's quite a bit lighter than my Razor. As to whether it's as tough as the Razor? I don't know. I haven't beat on either one enough. They both have excellent glass. I REALLY like the 'fin' on the K16i for fast magnification adjustments (bought an add-on for the Razor, but not needing to spend the extra is great). The K16i's horseshoe dot is VERY fast at close ranges. Both have daylight bright settings for the illumination, But neither one has true NVG settings, if that matters. I prefer Vortex's step illumination, where every alternate click is 'Off'. That way, you can set it to your preferred brightness, and 1 click in either direction, turns it Off. You can then turn it 1 click, straight to your preferred brightness setting (i.e. always turn counterclockwise for Off, then you know 1 click clockwise is your preferred brightness). The Kahles uses a continuously variable brightness knob, which means you have to always turn it all the way until it clicks, for Off, and dial it to the desires brightness every time, when turning it On. For a combat/night patrol optic, Kahles has an auto-Off after 4 hours IIRC. Don't remember what Vortex does. View Quote |
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Quoted:
If you are able to share any insight, your help would be greatly appreciated :-) I have just built an AR15 that'll fulfill the role of a close to mid-range SHTF carbine. The only question now is what optic to outfit it with. The options I've come across so far are: -Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6x -Steinier T5Xi 1-5x24 -US Optics SVS 1-6x -Leupold Mark 6 1-6x and VX-6HD 1-6x I'm open to others as well. Weight is an issue to balance with durability, as my AR builds need to be *relatively* lightweight due to medical necessity. Because of that, I've excluded optics such as the Vortex Viper PST Gen II since it's even heavier than the Razor Gen II-e. Thank you in advance for any help. View Quote |
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I’m probably the minortity here, my vote goes to mark 6.
Here is what I like about mark 6 1) True 1x...I really meant it...because I’m pretty picky about it. 2) light at 17oz..but it’s build like a tank 3) love the cmr-w reticle 4) super clear glass What I don’t like about mark 6 1) at max setting I felt the illlumation it’s not as bright under bright sunlight 2) doesn’t have integrated throw lever 3) dial is mushy...but I don’t dial Razor it’s awesome, buts it’s jsut too heavy ...yes, even at 21.5 o.....also at 1x...to my eye the images it’s not as flat as mark 6. Also, I don’t like razor reticle offering and the illumation dot it’s just too small..but that just me. I do have mil version NX8 on its way from Euro optics...I know I will love the reticle and illumation. Not sure how it is at 1x but since both scopes are FFP...I will assume it’s gonna be close. Glass probably not gonna be as good as Mark 6 (I owns NXS 2.5-10x 42) im hopeing the 8x it’s worthy of the trade off. |
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I’m probably the minortity here, my vote goes to mark 6. Here is what I like about mark 6 1) True 1x...I really meant it...because I’m pretty picky about it. 2) light at 17oz..but it’s build like a tank 3) love the cmr-w reticle 4) super clear glass What I don’t like about mark 6 1) at max setting I felt the illlumation it’s not as bright under bright sunlight 2) doesn’t have integrated throw lever 3) dial is mushy...but I don’t dial Razor it’s awesome, buts it’s jsut too heavy ...yes, even at 21.5 o.....also at 1x...to my eye the images it’s not as flat as mark 6. Also, I don’t like razor reticle offering and the illumation dot it’s just too small..but that just me. I do have mil version NX8 on its way from Euro optics...I know I will love the reticle and illumation. Not sure how it is at 1x but since both scopes are FFP...I will assume it’s gonna be close. Glass probably not gonna be as good as Mark 6 (I owns NXS 2.5-10x 42) im hopeing the 8x it’s worthy of the trade off. View Quote I was there checking out the trijicon 1-8x28 the other day and it was super clear and seemed very close to 1x . I've read a few reviews that say it's not daylight bright so I'll have too take another look |
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Quoted: They're only a 1\2 hour from where I live. I love that place! I was there checking out the trijicon 1-8x28 the other day and it was super clear and seemed very close to 1x . I've read a few reviews that say it's not daylight bright so I'll have too take another look View Quote I didnt like how big the crosshairs were for precision work at 8x and it's definitely not as daylight bright but still good if shady or overcast. 1x isn't true 1x but it's good enough for me. I'll be buying a razor 1-6 for my sbr soon. |
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Quoted: They're only a 1\2 hour from where I live. I love that place! I was there checking out the trijicon 1-8x28 the other day and it was super clear and seemed very close to 1x . I've read a few reviews that say it's not daylight bright so I'll have too take another look View Quote It showed that the reticle was indeed technically daylight bright, but wasn't reddot bright. |
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If I was going back into combat I'd be taking an Aimpont T2 micro and a small ACOG
For around here and my needs a 1-4 VX-R works just fine...a 1-4 Accupoint or Steiner would work too... Other scopes on other rifles for other purposes |
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Question for those experienced with the Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6
Does the E model just differ in weight? |
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Quoted:
If you are able to share any insight, your help would be greatly appreciated :-) I have just built an AR15 that'll fulfill the role of a close to mid-range SHTF carbine. The only question now is what optic to outfit it with. The options I've come across so far are: -Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6x -Steinier T5Xi 1-5x24 -US Optics SVS 1-6x -Leupold Mark 6 1-6x and VX-6HD 1-6x I'm open to others as well. Weight is an issue to balance with durability, as my AR builds need to be *relatively* lightweight due to medical necessity. Because of that, I've excluded optics such as the Vortex Viper PST Gen II since it's even heavier than the Razor Gen II-e. Thank you in advance for any help. View Quote |
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Quoted: I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02 View Quote Im just trying to see if anyone has tried it vs the new nightforce offerings to see how they compare. I got an atacr 1-8 right now and was thinking about buying a second one for my sbr but since the ranges itll be doing are 400 and in usually i might opt for the razor to save some money since 8x and FFP arent a huge deal to me with the sbr. |
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Quoted: have you tried the razor gen 2 1-6? Im just trying to see if anyone has tried it vs the new nightforce offerings to see how they compare. I got an atacr 1-8 right now and was thinking about buying a second one for my sbr but since the ranges itll be doing are 400 and in usually i might opt for the razor to save some money since 8x and FFP arent a huge deal to me with the sbr. View Quote |
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It's not possible with current technology to make any optics a true 1x. The Razor is truly remarkable in its ability to make the scope tube disappear on 1x so that all you see is the FOV through the optic. I haven't used any that are more high end than it though. The heavier one is too much weigh IMO but the new Enhanced is lighter than the G2 PST 1-6X at 21.5oz and that is a reasonable weight for a 1-6x IMO. View Quote |
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I like the VCOG, it's what I have on my go to rifle. The optic is lighter than a razor and that's with the VCOG already having a mount. It's durable, the reticle is not daylight bright but the reticle is bold and can be seen easily. I was shooting today on an overcast day and it was plenty visible but the day before it was extremely bright and it was a dark green. They have released new MOA/MIL VCOG's that could be brighter. The red 1-8 accupowers are bright. The accupoints are great optics they are light, no batteries, extremely bright. I don't like the mk6 because it has a poor eye box, the reticle without illumination is useless on 1x.
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Quoted: know when optics planet will be getting a shipment of JM reticle 1-6 Es? i wanna use my 10% discount code View Quote |
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a freind has a trijicon accupoint TR25, a 1-6x. from what little i've used it, the 1x settling was comfortable and fast. glass is good.
i really like the fiber optic but the recticle choices suck and the tiny center would not be good in the dark with a flashlight i dont think. i'd probably go for the german #4 or triangle reticle if i bought one. |
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We can confirm weight is the only difference in the E model. Hope this helps! Jimmy H View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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That's something that we'll be looking into in the future. Right now, our most pressing request was to have a true daylight bright reticle, which we were able to provide, but the technology prevented us from providing NV settings. At some point our goal is to provide both the daylight bright reticle and NV settings. Time will tell but we'll keep working on it.
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Quoted: I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02 View Quote I know a lot of posts here, and the question becomes one of budget. The 1-8x from Trijicon is pretty damn good, and 1/3 the price of some of the others, so it all depends what one wants and wants to pay. |
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That's something that we'll be looking into in the future. Right now, our most pressing request was to have a true daylight bright reticle, which we were able to provide, but the technology prevented us from providing NV settings. At some point our goal is to provide both the daylight bright reticle and NV settings. Time will tell but we'll keep working on it. View Quote |
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Quoted: I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02 View Quote There are numerous LPVOs with a true 1x magnification (both the Razor HD G2 and Kahles are examples). As you pan at 1x, and objects pass into, and out of, the view through the scope, there is no change in the size of the object. Not being able to cowitness a LPVO to irons is a different issue, due to focal range/distance/lengthissues with complex optics. This is also the reason that there is an optimal eye relief range from the ocular lens for LPVOs, unlike red dot or holographic sights where you can have your eye as close to, or far from your eye as you can see through. A red dot or holographic sight simply projects a dot or reticle in your field of view by reflecting it off an angled plane. This can be done without magnification, or any need for the optic to focus the light passing through it. As such, there is no eye relief range, or minimum focal distance. |
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Aren't you conflating magnification and focus? There are numerous LPVOs with a true 1x magnification (both the Razor HD G2 and Kahles are examples). As you pan at 1x, and objects pass into, and out of, the view through the scope, there is no change in the size of the object. Not being able to cowitness a LPVO to irons is a different issue, due to focal range/distance/lengthissues with complex optics. This is also the reason that there is an optimal eye relief range from the ocular lens for LPVOs, unlike red dot or holographic sights where you can have your eye as close to, or far from your eye as you can see through. A red dot or holographic sight simply projects a dot or reticle in your field of view by reflecting it off an angled plane. This can be done without magnification, or any need for the optic to focus the light passing through it. As such, there is no eye relief range, or minimum focal distance. View Quote |
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IMO a 'combat' optic would pin durability and reliability as the most important characteristics.... If you really wanted a 'combat' optic or some 'shtf' oriented optic, you're still probably better off with a acog/rmr or reddot/magnifier combo. View Quote I'd suggest the regular MRO but I feel the Patrol model's enhancements fit your demands much closer. $439.95 at Aim Surplus (without mounts) We had ELCAN SpecterDR's but they were bricks and the A.R.M.S mounts weren't up to par for the asking price IMO. However, if weight wasn't and issue I'd run right back to suggesting those for a combat rifle. The marines with us had ACOG's and I just didn't like their eye relief but I'm sure that can be trained out with usage and range time. There was a lower magnification ACOG I liked though, for the life of me I can't find which model it was though and the local shop closed before I could purchase it. Just saying...these are in fact in battle across the globe (or flat earth if that's your thing). I simply like the idea of a red dot w/ a magnifier with QD mounts due to most action is reactionary/CQC. Need magnification past 100yds? fine, pull it out of your pocket and have at it. Or have a long range rifle in your small covin or survivors |
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Aren't you conflating magnification and focus? There are numerous LPVOs with a true 1x magnification (both the Razor HD G2 and Kahles are examples). As you pan at 1x, and objects pass into, and out of, the view through the scope, there is no change in the size of the object. Not being able to cowitness a LPVO to irons is a different issue, due to focal range/distance/lengthissues with complex optics. This is also the reason that there is an optimal eye relief range from the ocular lens for LPVOs, unlike red dot or holographic sights where you can have your eye as close to, or far from your eye as you can see through. A red dot or holographic sight simply projects a dot or reticle in your field of view by reflecting it off an angled plane. This can be done without magnification, or any need for the optic to focus the light passing through it. As such, there is no eye relief range, or minimum focal distance. View Quote Another example... there are fixed 1x prism optics that are true 1x or maybe even below 1x (i.e. things look slightly farther away). I acknowledge that even though you can't cowitness through them. |
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