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Trouble with ACSS Optic (Page 1 of 2)
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Posted: 1/3/2021 9:53:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2021 9:54:23 AM EST by dmorganpatriot]
Went shooting with my old man recently.  I've been frustrated with my ACSS groupings.  We both used his M&P with a Vortex Diamondback and then my IWI Zion with a PA 1-8x ACSS at 100 yards.  The red are the M&P Vortex and the blue are the IWI PA.  Both shot with the same junk Federal 55 gr.  I'm going to try the Vortex on my rifle soon to see if it's the rifle or the optic.  

I wasn't expecting precision shooting with the ACSS but we both were aiming for center red and it was all over the place.  

Has anyone else had trouble with the ACSS optic or suggestions?  

Link Posted: 1/3/2021 9:59:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2021 11:13:11 AM EST by NJTac]
I shoot competitions with mine. Farthest hit so far is 815yds. I’d throw a higher magnification scope on and verify the ammo shoots MOA. Also, I like to shoot at small 1/2” to 3/4” orange circles. Smaller point of aim.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:01:39 AM EST
An optic does not make the gun accurate.
You are shooting trash ammo.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:10:42 AM EST
If all variables are the same except the scope, I'd suggest making sure everything is tight. I was chasing a zero for a few minutes on a 308 (with an acss scope, in fact) before I realized the scope had been sliding back in the mount. I fixed it, applied loctite, tightened it, and didn't have any more issues.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:17:31 AM EST
Thanks for the advice. I'll look into the mount and better ammo.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:35:18 AM EST
I’d lean towards it being the mount, maybe the rifle. When I put the 2.5x ACSS on my A4/A2 mix, (carry handle mount) I didn’t tighten it down enough so my group at 50 looked similar. Now at 100 I can hold a fist-sized group with Wolf steel case.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:36:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleman_556:
I’d lean towards it being the mount, maybe the rifle. When I put the 2.5x ACSS on my A4/A2 mix, (carry handle mount) I didn’t tighten it down enough so my group at 50 looked similar. Now at 100 I can hold a fist-sized group with Wolf steel case.
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I'll double check the mount. I torqued it to spec but maybe it needs a little more. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:37:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:40:13 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
An optic does not make the gun accurate.
You are shooting trash ammo.
View Quote
The red is as expected. Something is very wrong with the blue.

Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:45:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
The red is as expected. Something is very wrong with the blue.

Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak.
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
An optic does not make the gun accurate.
You are shooting trash ammo.
The red is as expected. Something is very wrong with the blue.

Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak.


Meh.

I look at both and see it as a typical "this person can't shoot and is blaming gear".

Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:46:24 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
The red is as expected. Something is very wrong with the blue.

Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak.
View Quote



I clean my rifle after every trip so I don't think it's that. I agree something is off and since we both shoot roughly the same with each I know it's not solely on me. I'm not a great shoot but something is wrong here. I'll give it a one over like you suggest. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 10:49:04 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:


Meh.

I look at both and see it as a typical "this person can't shoot and is blaming gear".

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I can only aspire to be as bad ass as you one day.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:46:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
An optic does not make the gun accurate.
You are shooting trash ammo.
View Quote

This.

Also, you’re going between two rifles with different twist rates and expecting the same results.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:48:22 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Soberglitch:

This.

Also, you’re going between two rifles with different twist rates and expecting the same results.
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They are different twist rates. I didn't know it would make that much of a difference. I'll try some heavier grain in mine. If I can find some.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:50:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2021 11:53:20 AM EST by s4s4u]
Neither look very good to me.  Are those 1" squares on 12x12 targets?
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:52:13 AM EST
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Originally Posted By s4s4u:
Neither look very good to me.  Are those 1" squares on 12x12 targets?
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I'm not saying either are good. But one is obviously worse than the other. The targets are 12x12.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:53:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By dmorganpatriot:


I'm not saying either are good. But one is obviously worse than the other. The targets are 12x12.
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What distance?
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:54:05 AM EST
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Originally Posted By s4s4u:


What distance?
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100 yards
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:57:29 AM EST
You're comparing two different optics, on two different guns.  I wasn't trying to be a dick with my comment, but you're essentially asking us to piss into the wind.

What do you want us to comment on?  Presumably the diamondback has more magnification than the ACSS, hence the groups being better.

The only thing you can do to test accuracy is eliminate as many outside forces/variables as possible, go from there.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:00:37 PM EST
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Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
You're comparing two different optics, on two different guns.  I wasn't trying to be a dick with my comment, but you're essentially asking us to piss into the wind.

What do you want us to comment on?  Presumably the diamondback has more magnification than the ACSS, hence the groups being better.

The only thing you can do to test accuracy is eliminate as many outside forces/variables as possible, go from there.
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I was hoping to find some information to try and narrow down to what is the issue. There are some here that gave me some good tips. I figured since this is an AR forum it would be the place to ask people more knowledge than myself.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:13:48 PM EST
There’s just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It’s a crap shoot.

If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:22:35 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
There’s just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It’s a crap shoot.

If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle.
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Thanks for the info. I will try the other optic on mine. I'll look for some decent ammo too.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:38:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dmorganpatriot:


Thanks for the info. I will try the other optic on mine. I'll look for some decent ammo too.
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Originally Posted By dmorganpatriot:
Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
There’s just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It’s a crap shoot.

If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle.


Thanks for the info. I will try the other optic on mine. I'll look for some decent ammo too.


What are the twists of each of the rifles? Now is a rough time to get a couple boxes of a few different premium rds of different bullet weights. But I would get 2 boxes of a couple known good rounds that work with your barrel twist.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:41:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
There's just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It's a crap shoot.

If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle.
View Quote
Bingo
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:42:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DonofKalifornia:


What are the twists of each of the rifles? Now is a rough time to get a couple boxes of a few different premium rds of different bullet weights. But I would get 2 boxes of a couple known good rounds that work with your barrel twist.
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Good advice.  Mine is 1:8 and his is 1:7 I believe.

Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:44:35 PM EST
I think the M&P rifles are all 1:9, at least they used to be. Probably part of the reason why your buddy’s rifle is shooting the 55gr a little better.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 12:51:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
I think the M&P rifles are all 1:9, at least they used to be. Probably part of the reason why your buddy’s rifle is shooting the 55gr a little better.
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You're right.  It is a 1:9 for the M&P.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 2:25:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dmorganpatriot:


They are different twist rates. I didn't know it would make that much of a difference.
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It doesn't.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 2:27:37 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dmorganpatriot:


100 yards
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Rested?
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 2:44:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By s4s4u:


Rested?
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Using a bench rest
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 3:04:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
An optic does not make the gun accurate.
You are shooting trash ammo.
View Quote


Winner!!!!!!!! Chicken dinner!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 3:19:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2021 3:19:40 PM EST by gman556]
OP I would check all your mount and ring screws and then start from scratch all over again and maybe if at all possible in this current ammo shortage try to use some better quality ammo or maybe even hand loads if you reload?

Like others have said here you're also comparing two completely different barrels from two different companies. I have a couple of rifles that have two identical barrels from the same company and each one of them prefers a different load when it comes to accuracy.

Link Posted: 1/3/2021 4:26:08 PM EST
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Originally Posted By gman556:
OP I would check all your mount and ring screws and then start from scratch all over again and maybe if at all possible in this current ammo shortage try to use some better quality ammo or maybe even hand loads if you reload?

Like others have said here you're also comparing two completely different barrels from two different companies. I have a couple of rifles that have two identical barrels from the same company and each one of them prefers a different load when it comes to accuracy.

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Good advice.  I didn't realize it would make such a difference. Learning new things all the time here. Thank you.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 4:29:49 PM EST
I appreciate all the advice here. I realize there is a lot of variability in my problem but I've learned a lot from the posts. I ordered some better ammo though I could not find a heavier grain. I'll try the mentioned tips. Thanks to those who provided advice.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 9:10:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 9:20:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By NJTac:
I shoot competitions with mine. Farthest hit so far is 815yds. I’d throw a higher magnification scope on and verify the ammo shoots MOA. Also, I like to shoot at small 1/2” to 3/4” orange circles. Smaller point of aim.
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It’s only 100 yards... a 4X optic is plenty for MOA or better that range.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 9:21:10 PM EST
Those are horrible groups.

I doubt it is all the fault of the optic.

I have had acceptable accuracy out to 500 using a 1-6 ACSS.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 9:23:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 9:23:53 PM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:


Meh.

I look at both and see it as a typical "this person can't shoot and is blaming gear".

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It’s a possibility, but it’s also crap ammunition and a crap rifle.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 9:25:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 9:26:27 PM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
I think the M&P rifles are all 1:9, at least they used to be. Probably part of the reason why your buddy’s rifle is shooting the 55gr a little better.
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Lol... no.

Both 1/7 and 1/9 stabilize 55gr just fine.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:45:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Lol... no.

Both 1/7 and 1/9 stabilize 55gr just fine.
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My bad. Forgot twist rates were irrelevant in barrels.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 1:19:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 1:22:19 AM EST by 20DYNAMITE07]
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Originally Posted By dmorganpatriot:
Thanks for the advice. I'll look into the mount and better ammo.
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I'm going through the same thing with my new IWI z15 w/ a PA slx 1-6 w/ the ACSS reticle too...

My point of impact is all over the place.  I'm a decent shot normally, so it's pretty frustrating.  I've been trying to troubleshoot it with my brother - in - law, and I'm going to change out my stock next to see if I can get a better/ more consistent cheek weld. I'm shooting IWI 5.56 55gr Nato, so I'll also be trying some different ammo also to see if the gun likes something else better too.

But as an example, at 50 yards, I was shooting a 1.75" group with my iron sights, and a 4+" group with my optic.  It's infuriating.  For that range, I suspect there may be a bit of a parallax shift happening with me, but I'm getting some really inconsistent results at 100 yards too.

So like I said I'm working on improving my form, and I'll try some different ammo too the next time i'm at the range.  If I'm still having problems I'll throw my b-I-l's Leupold optic on my gun to see if that's the issue. Maybe something like that will work for you?

If you find a round your gun likes, let us know!

Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:07:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:31:34 AM EST
Too many variables to do more than take a wild guess.

It could be the optic. You and your father (genetics are a thing) might shoot better with higher magnification, simpler reticles that are not as busy and/or clearer optics (scopes with a wide power range, e.g. an 8x erector of a 1-8 versus a more standard 3x erector a of a 3-9, 4-12 or 5-15 or a 4x erector of a 3-12, 4-16, or 5-20, are bad about losing clarity as you get to the upper extreme of the magnification range).

It is more likely the rifle. Your barrel might not like the 55gr. Federal ammo you were using. The barrel might be touching something (the rifle rest, gas block hitting the rail). The scope or scope mount might be moving.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 6:06:00 PM EST
Results like that make me wonder if you are shooting correctly. Are you holding your breath before each shot? Are you practicing proper trigger pull? Is your reticle all over the place because you cannot get the gun still enough? As many said lots of variables at play here. These are some of my observations based upon experience and without parroting the potential issues already touched upon. If you can shoot better groups with your dads rifle you know its probably the mounting job (or mount itself if cheap crap). Even M193 should be capable of around 3-4 MOA of course as others said its possible the barrel just doesn't agree with that specific ammo flavor.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 6:32:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MARSH1:


You would not be getting that much parallax shift unless you had the reticle way way off center. Rule out any movement in the mount. If you think the optic is not holding zero I will send a replacement.  


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Thank you! I appreciate your customer service.  To be clear - I'm 99% sure it's something I'm doing wrong rather than you're product.  But thanks!
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:03:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Soberglitch:

My bad. Forgot twist rates were irrelevant in barrels.
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@Soberglitch

It would be relevant if you were dealing with an incompatible combination of twist rate and bullet length, such as a 1/12 (or possibly 1/9) and a 77gr OTM.

There is no such incompatibility with 1/9 or 1/7 and 55gr FMJ (or any conventional 55gr slug). Both will stabilize 55gr without issue.

Welcome to how guns work.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:09:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


@Soberglitch

It would be relevant if you were dealing with an incompatible combination of twist rate and bullet length, such as a 1/12 (or possibly 1/9) and a 77gr OTM.

There is no such incompatibility with 1/9 or 1/7 and 55gr FMJ (or any conventional 55gr slug). Both will stabilize 55gr without issue.

Welcome to how guns work.
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True this.  I have two 5.56 rifles with 7 twist barrels, a 16 and a 20, and both shoot my 55 grain Hornady SP reloads into raggedy holes @ 100 meters.  I have some 40 grain BT's from my 218 that I wanna try just for the hell of it, if I can ever find the time.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:12:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
An optic does not make the gun accurate.
You are shooting trash ammo.
View Quote



Even trash ammo should do better than 6 moa.  I think there may be some unfamiliarity with the chevron reticle, along with some inexperience behind the trigger, at play.  I personally don't like the ACSS, but can shoot it just fine.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:39:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 10:47:26 PM EST by Exorpmtech]
I'm not a sharp-shooter OP, but my experience with 2 different LVPOs is very similar to yours, a 1-4 and a 1-6 that consistently grouped like shit past 50 yards.  I tried them on different rifles, different mounts, different barrels different, ammo, and always the same story.  It seems the "fat" center point of the reticle is where a lot of the "grouping" is lost.  It's hard to shoot tight at distance when the center of the reticle is bigger than the 4" circle at 100 yards.  

To test my theory, before I spend significant money on a scope, I bought a cheap shit Vortex 4-12.  It is as basic as basic can be and has a very simple, but very fine center crosshair.  Low and behold, I went from groups just like yours to consistent 2moa groups with no other changes using a milspec trigger.  I shoot it at 8X usually so I can transition from to 50 to 100 yard targets without having to change the magnification.

Not saying this is your issue, but it was mine.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 11:27:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 11:31:03 PM EST by Soberglitch]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


@Soberglitch

It would be relevant if you were dealing with an incompatible combination of twist rate and bullet length, such as a 1/12 (or possibly 1/9) and a 77gr OTM.

There is no such incompatibility with 1/9 or 1/7 and 55gr FMJ (or any conventional 55gr slug). Both will stabilize 55gr without issue.

Welcome to how guns work.
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Damn, someone is a Sassy Sally.

We can agree to disagree on differing barrel specs being variables between rifles.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 11:53:13 PM EST
I skimmed this, I see mostly what I’d be inclined to say. There are a lot of explanations for these results, but I’d be REALLY surprised if it were a faulty optic.
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Trouble with ACSS Optic (Page 1 of 2)
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