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Posted: 9/6/2023 11:25:20 AM EST
I originally posted this to Reddit, bringing it here because I am pissed.

For those who haven't followed, I tested my Credo LPVO in a water bucket to ensure it's GTG in terms of water ingress (it is advertised as waterproof/fogproof) it fogged up from that, then it fogged up from a fridge test (put scope inside fridge, the temperature change will show any internal fogging). I sent it to Trijicon, who first said there was nothing wrong with the scope, then after I demanded they test it more, they admitted that it is fogging internally but that it shouldn't be an issue during normal use.

To triple verify what they meant, I called their support before they sent my scope back to me and recorded the call to prove I'm not crazy.

Trijicon rep admitted that there is moisture inside the scope. But that it's passed their QC, is within their specs and that it's out of his hands.




~~~


Trijicon: "Support this is X speaking how may I help?"

Me: "Yeah I was returning X's voicemail she left me for my return authorization."

Trijicon: "OK, yeah, the credo that was having fogging issues?"

Me: "So, so what I got was that the - you guys confirmed that it's fogging internally, right?"

Trijicon: "It is fogging internally when exposed to the cold and the, then y'know exposed to the warmer air. Now, there is tolerance for this to happen because it's going to happen to every scope regardless if it's nitrogen purged or not."

Me: "How would the condensation or fogging clear up if it's a sealed system?"

Trijicon: "Because the nitrogen its clearing the, the fogging out. That's what it is, it's a dry environment to a degree, but when you introduce it to extreme cold then bring it into standard room temperatures or a warmer environment it's gonna fog.

Me: "It can only happen if there's moisture inside the optic, though."

Trijicon: "Right,"

Me: "Because the nitrogen gas can't just fog up, that means there's oxygen and moisture inside the optic."

Trijicon: "So, again, the optics are dry as they can humanly be. They are nitrogen purged to the degree where they have put in enough nitrogen to keep them from fogging on standard conditions."

Me: "The issue is, mine fogged up - there's two instances where this happened. Number one, I put it inside my refrigerator, for just two hours -"

Trijicon: "That's an extreme-"

Me: "That's not, that's like 50 degrees"

Trijicon: "Refrigerators normally run about 34 degrees"

Me: "Well that's saying that if I'm using my scope outside, then I go inside, it's just not going to function, for the the 5 minutes or so until it warms up, correct?"

Me: "Because there's plenty of ways to get a scope cold to like, 30-40 degrees without it being purposely put in a refrigerator."

Me: "These are supposed to be fogproof, and I understand the necessity of running these extreme tests but -20 for a week is a lot different than a fridge."

Me: "And this also happened when I put the scope, to test the - well I was like, is there water ingress? I put it in a bucket of room temperature water, I took it out, I noticed it had fogged, and that's why initially I'm like OK, yeah, this is water ingress issue, this is why it happened. But then you guys said there's no water ingress or moisture inside the scope. - I just don't think that's acceptable for a scope that's fogproof, y'know if this could only happen if you were flash freezing it then warming up, that's fine, but there's plenty of ways this could hypothetically happen."

Trijicon: "OK, all I can tell you is this was tested by the engineering department and the R&D department, and it passed all our tests for what we consider acceptable. Now, again, everyone's going to have their own opinion on how things should be, and I agree with you if it's listed as a fog-free scope it will be fog-free, Now, there's a caveat to that, there's going to be certain circumstances that there is going to be fogging present depending on the conditions and environment you use it in."

Me: "So then, it's not fog-free."

Trijicon: "If you put it to an extreme condition, yes, [cont] now, again, we've got customers who use our scopes in Alaska, and the northern parts of Michigan and I've yet to have a customer come back to me and say hey, I was out on a hunt for four hours in 30-below weather then my scope fogged up when I went into my cabin or where I stored it, now it does happen, where it, it's in a patrol vehicle or something, then they go outside and they get fogging most of the time it's on the outside of the lens very very rare that it's on the inside of the lens-"

Me: "Yeah well, let's talk about a patrol vehicle here, let's say that you're a police officer, you have a Credo LPVO on your rifle, your duty rifle, you keep it in your patrol car's trunk, which is cold, it's winter, overnight so the scope has been acclimated to lets just say, let's just say around 35-40 degrees, right? That's reasonable to assume."

Trijicon: "Right."

Me: "it's freezing or below outside, the officer needs to quickly take his rifle into an active shooting or something, and that's acceptable for Trijicon that like, oh, he's gotta wait 5 minutes for his scope to warm up before he can use it? That's craziness to me."

Trijicon: "So again, on most occasions it's on the external part of the lens-"

Me: "But this case isn't on the external part, this is internal"

Trijicon: Again, we've tested the scope, it's passed our testing, there's not much I can do on my end it's out of my hands, this would need to go higher than me, and again I, I just explain to you from a technical side that's what my job is, I'm a technical specialist I explain how the scopes work. So, when it comes to this this would need to go above me, and again, I'm not disagreeing with the fogging of the scope, it is fogging, we have tested it but it is falling between our parameters. [cont] It's within the limitations of an optic. So, again I can continue the conversation with this, I don't think we're going to come to an [agreement] between ourselves where technical, versus, uh, I'm trying to think of a word, perceived?"

Me: Oh, it's perceived, OK.

Trijicon: No, I'm not saying it's perceived I'm saying the way you are perceiving the nitrogen fill being a dry system, I'm trying to explain that there are cases where that is true, but there are extreme cases the scope's going to fog.

Trijicon: [escalates me to supervisor]

Call recording (employee names censored): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjau47EDT4
Hydra
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 11:54:00 AM EST
[#1]
Why do you keep making new threads on the same subject?
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 12:05:07 PM EST
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Why do you keep making new threads on the same subject?
View Quote


Because this is a significant update to warrant a new thread. Why do you care, though? You're fuckin obsessed with me. Get a life.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 12:52:04 PM EST
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Because this is a significant update to warrant a new thread. Why do you care, though? You're fuckin obsessed with me. Get a life.
View Quote

Lol
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 12:55:24 PM EST
[#4]
I'm not reading all that but I just sent my Credo 1-6x in for a small piece of debris that showed up inside the lens. The replaced the entire scope within a week.

I've had to use Trijicon warranty for my SRO as well and they replaced it, no questions asked.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 12:58:00 PM EST
[#5]
Trijicon owes you a new scope.

I had 3 battery powered TA110s fail.  Their customer service people are barely minimum wage capable.

Escalate as high as humanly possible.  Someone will give a shit.  You just have to find them.

I once got Ruger to buy back an SP101 with problems.  You have to not quit.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 1:08:18 PM EST
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Trijicon owes you a new scope.

I had 3 battery powered TA110s fail.  Their customer service people are barely minimum wage capable.

Escalate as high as humanly possible.  Someone will give a shit.  You just have to find them.

I once got Ruger to buy back an SP101 with problems.  You have to not quit.
View Quote


I tried, the employee said his supervisor is denying me a replacement.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 1:17:45 PM EST
[#7]
Maybe Argon purge it yourself?
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 1:23:16 PM EST
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Maybe Argon purge it yourself?
View Quote
I have done this a few times with good success but I already have a Tig setup and Argon handy.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 1:28:01 PM EST
[#9]
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 1:56:39 PM EST
[#10]
Dude, just sell the fucking thing already.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 2:12:26 PM EST
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

In before: why are you obsessed with me?
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 2:14:16 PM EST
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Dude, just sell the fucking thing already.
View Quote


Really?  With full discloure, do you think anyone would drop large coin on a scope that is neither water, nor fog, proof?

Their response is pitiful.  I don't blame OP for being pissed off.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 2:38:34 PM EST
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Dude, just sell the fucking thing already.
View Quote


Would you buy this? lol
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 3:57:26 PM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have done this a few times with good success but I already have a Tig setup and Argon handy.
View Quote


You can buy it like canned air for wine bottle purging to reduce oxidation of wine.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 3:58:30 PM EST
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


You can buy it like canned air for wine bottle purging to reduce oxidation of wine.
View Quote
I had no idea. Cool!
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 3:59:20 PM EST
[#16]
I see no reason to doubt the OP.

I've had similar poor customer service from Trijicon.  It's why I've been buying Holosun sights for my handguns for the last couple of years.
Link Posted: 9/6/2023 5:12:15 PM EST
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I had no idea. Cool!
View Quote


I have used it in chemistry experiments when I need an inert atmosphere and where if oxygen is present it can kick off side reactions or ruin the experiment.  Argon is actually better than Nitrogen in the sense of preventing fogging or fluctuating pressures.  Not much will react with Nitrogen because of the triple bond but almost nothing reacts with the noble gases except in rare fluorine chemistry.  It might even solve OPs issue of fogging and the optic should have a plug somewhere on it that Trijicon does the nitrogen purge that can be removed and purge it argon.  You will never get all the random gases out but considering the normal atmospheric composition is 70% nitrogen and you should be able to purge upwards of 90% of that gas with argon I think the outcome would be worth a try.  I would recommend run your AC really hard in your house to remove as much humidity as reasonably possible, remove the purge plug, purge the optic with a few hard blasts of the argon and then a steady low blast of the argon for maybe 30 or so seconds should get then close it up.
Amazon Product
  • Bloxygen. ONE can. Protects anything sensitive to oxygen or moisture damage.
  • Bloxygen inert gas preserves leftover paint, stain, varnish.
  • Reduce hazardous waste and product loss.

Link Posted: 9/7/2023 1:39:48 PM EST
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I tried, the employee said his supervisor is denying me a replacement.
View Quote


Talk to the supervisor yourself.  Don't trust him.  If that doesn't work, find his supervisor.  Find the QA manager, email the President.  Never stop.  
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 3:05:08 PM EST
[#19]
embarrassing response from trijicon. I expected more from a company that touts its reputation for bombproof optics and until this I only heard good things about trijicon's warranty. I would be extremely pissed too if I were in your shoes OP
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 3:25:29 PM EST
[#20]
Yeah, I’m glad you started a new thread with this information. I have heard others grumble about Trijicon but never firsthand stories like this.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 3:49:47 PM EST
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Really?  With full discloure, do you think anyone would drop large coin on a scope that is neither water, nor fog, proof?

Their response is pitiful.  I don't blame OP for being pissed off.
View Quote



Exactly.  I have found Trijicon glass to be super for my eyes and purposes.  But them not replacing this scope is pure bullshit.  And telling the OP to "just sell it" is absolute bullshit.  Who the hell is going to buy it if the OP gives full description?
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 3:53:11 PM EST
[#22]
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 3:54:21 PM EST
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Would you buy this? lol
View Quote

Just list for best offer.  Credo for sale.  Fogs up inside.. BO

ETA- Even if they fix it, I wouldn't want it.  Wouldn't trust the fix.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 4:51:27 PM EST
[#24]
One thing is for certain. Ranting all over the forums isn't going to solve the issue.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 7:03:12 PM EST
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Just to be clear, this is a technical subforum, so we're not supposed to call you things like "a booger-picking moron", correct?

ETA: Reminds of me fielding tech support issues like "my stock rattles when I shake it".
View Quote


? what are you talking about lol, are you comparing scope fogging to a stock rattling
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 7:10:38 PM EST
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One thing is for certain. Ranting all over the forums isn't going to solve the issue.
View Quote


C'mon, man.  ARFCOM.....
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 7:27:52 PM EST
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One thing is for certain. Ranting all over the forums isn't going to solve the issue.
View Quote

It does let others know and serves as a warning to others not to buy products that are poorly warrantied.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 7:46:35 PM EST
[#28]
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 7:49:33 PM EST
[#29]
Find out where the CEO lives and go there to his doorstep.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 8:25:17 PM EST
[#30]

Have we seen shots of the interaction between the op and trijicon yet?
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 8:37:31 PM EST
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Find out where the CEO lives and go there to his doorstep.
View Quote
And do what?
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 8:46:54 PM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
And do what?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Find out where the CEO lives and go there to his doorstep.
And do what?
Dunk him in water and throw him in a fridge?

As for the scope here, dunno. Surprised trijicon isn't doing more. Even my cheap scopes don't fog up in cool or cold weather going from truck to outside or vice versa. And a refrigerator isn't even that cold, hardly a torture test.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 9:01:51 PM EST
[#33]
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 10:26:58 PM EST
[#34]
I wonder if Trijicon will repurge the optic with N2?  If moisture is in the optic the simple fix is dry it out.  Which can be done by pulling a vacuum on it lowering the pressure inside boiling any water vaporizing and sucking it out then purge it with nitrogen problem solved unless their is a seal that is bad.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 10:58:40 PM EST
[#35]
Trijicon's qc\warranty has been trash the last few times I've tried to get them to fix something.  "Hey the eyebox on this scope is shifted way over to the right when the scope is zeroed, and the reticle isn't centered in the center of the eyebox range (terrible shadow on one side) please fix it!"   Trijicon's response:  put your eye closer to the scope.
I sent said scope in 3 different times and they sent it back to me without fixing it.  It's now a worthless expensive paperweight to remind me never to buy anything from them ever again.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 11:27:10 PM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


? what are you talking about lol, are you comparing scope fogging to a stock rattling
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just to be clear, this is a technical subforum, so we're not supposed to call you things like "a booger-picking moron", correct?

ETA: Reminds of me fielding tech support issues like "my stock rattles when I shake it".


? what are you talking about lol, are you comparing scope fogging to a stock rattling


https://www.trijicon.com/support/returns-repairs
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 11:31:25 PM EST
[#37]
Me: "it's freezing or below outside, the officer needs to quickly take his rifle into an active shooting or something, and that's acceptable for Trijicon that like, oh, he's gotta wait 5 minutes for his scope to warm up before he can use it? That's craziness to me."
View Quote


Any scope will fog in those conditions. There are two sides to every lens.
Link Posted: 9/7/2023 11:38:34 PM EST
[#38]
OP did you really think freezers are 50 degrees? and you really said that to them in your Phone call? you said that the freezer is not an extreme enviroment because its only 50 degrees?  I need a Little clarity on that part.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:01:55 AM EST
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP did you really think freezers are 50 degrees? and you really said that to them in your Phone call? you said that the freezer is not an extreme enviroment because its only 50 degrees?  I need a Little clarity on that part.
View Quote


I said fridges are only 50 degrees. Obviously I was wrong about the number, but Trijicon said that fridges are 32-34 degrees and that that's a extreme enviornment. Basically, they said that refrigerator temperatures were extreme enviornments.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:04:57 AM EST
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I said fridges are only 50 degrees. Obviously I was wrong about the number, but Trijicon said that fridges are 32-34 degrees and that that's a extreme enviornment. Basically, they said that refrigerator temperatures were extreme enviornments.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
OP did you really think freezers are 50 degrees? and you really said that to them in your Phone call? you said that the freezer is not an extreme enviroment because its only 50 degrees?  I need a Little clarity on that part.


I said fridges are only 50 degrees. Obviously I was wrong about the number, but Trijicon said that fridges are 32-34 degrees and that that's a extreme enviornment. Basically, they said that refrigerator temperatures were extreme enviornments.



So for no particular reason you decided to perform unrealistic testing and you are disappointed with the results then you complain to Trijicon?  

Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:10:11 AM EST
[#41]
You should have said it happened in a real world scenario.   It’s easy to understand why they wouldn’t reward and coddle people who perform their own jury-rigged experiments.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:12:24 AM EST
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You should have said it happened in a real world scenario.   It’s easy to understand why they wouldn’t reward and coddle people who perform their own jury-rigged experiments.
View Quote


It's september, where am I gonna get the scope to the 40's naturally
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 6:48:12 AM EST
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It's september, where am I gonna get the scope to the 40's naturally
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
You should have said it happened in a real world scenario.   It’s easy to understand why they wouldn’t reward and coddle people who perform their own jury-rigged experiments.


It's september, where am I gonna get the scope to the 40's naturally

My swat team was doing cqb in a meat packing facility.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 8:56:27 AM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



So for no particular reason you decided to perform unrealistic testing and you are disappointed with the results then you complain to Trijicon?  

View Quote


his test doesnt seem unreasonable at all, especially for a brand that is supposed to be making bomb proof optics.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 9:07:41 AM EST
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Any scope will fog in those conditions. There are two sides to every lens.
View Quote


Yep. Every scope I have and my pvs14s will fog instantly when walking from my air conditioned house to outside. It's on the outside though of the optics though. Not the inside.

I'm just skeptical of OP because his optic failed while he was trying to torture test it. If he told trijicon he was attempting to torture test it I wouldn't be surprised that they said no. And OP keeps providing new details that he left out of his initial post. So I don't think we're getting the complete story here.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 9:12:47 AM EST
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yep. Every scope I have and my pvs14s will fog instantly when walking from my air conditioned house to outside. It's on the outside though of the optics though. Not the inside.

I'm just skeptical of OP because his optic failed while he was trying to torture test it. If he told trijicon he was attempting to torture test it I wouldn't be surprised that they said no. And OP keeps providing new details that he left out of his initial post. So I don't think we're getting the complete story here.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Any scope will fog in those conditions. There are two sides to every lens.


Yep. Every scope I have and my pvs14s will fog instantly when walking from my air conditioned house to outside. It's on the outside though of the optics though. Not the inside.

I'm just skeptical of OP because his optic failed while he was trying to torture test it. If he told trijicon he was attempting to torture test it I wouldn't be surprised that they said no. And OP keeps providing new details that he left out of his initial post. So I don't think we're getting the complete story here.



Link Posted: 9/8/2023 9:35:31 AM EST
[#47]
This is the last time I'm going to bother replying to comments like these, so I'll be absolutely clear.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



So for no particular reason you decided to perform unrealistic testing and you are disappointed with the results then you complain to Trijicon?  

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



So for no particular reason you decided to perform unrealistic testing and you are disappointed with the results then you complain to Trijicon?  




It's not unrealistic testing. The Credo is a "Waterproof" and "Fogproof" scope. Why would you spend $800 on a scope that's supposed to potentially save your life and not actually make sure it's functioning correctly?


Quoted:


Yep. Every scope I have and my pvs14s will fog instantly when walking from my air conditioned house to outside. It's on the outside though of the optics though. Not the inside.

I'm just skeptical of OP because his optic failed while he was trying to torture test it. If he told trijicon he was attempting to torture test it I wouldn't be surprised that they said no. And OP keeps providing new details that he left out of his initial post. So I don't think we're getting the complete story here.


I wasn't torture testing anything. Torture testing would be using the optic beyond what it's advertised to be able to handle. A bucket of water isn't torture testing, and if you think it is, I hear Trijicon's hiring. "OP keeps providing new details", I made my first post about this like, weeks ago. New stuff happens as time goes on, crazy thing right?

There's a few people here that are missing the main problem of this all, that Trijicon thinks scopes fogging is normal. This isn't "oh, they made me pay for my repair" it's that they repeatedly and confidently said that every scope out there fogs up internally. I am very happy I performed those tests because if I hadn't then I wouldn't have known I had a bad optic until winter, which would be a pain. Trijicon is in the wrong here and almost everyone seems to agree with me.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 10:16:06 AM EST
[#48]
Pictures or a video would be helpful here.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 11:28:40 AM EST
[#49]
I left my Vortex Viper 1-6 in the freezer overnight and pulled it out this morning after my coffee obviously.  The lens did condensate some water a little bit inside my house but the moment I walked outside the entire lens was fogged up.  All this occurred on the outside of the lens and I could wipe it off.  No change on the inside once it stopped condensing water on the lens and I could look through the optic without having to wipe it.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 1:04:10 PM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

It's not unrealistic testing. The Credo is a "Waterproof" and "Fogproof" scope. Why would you spend $800 on a scope that's supposed to potentially save your life and not actually make sure it's functioning correctly?


View Quote


You bought an $800 scope expecting $3000 scope performance.


However,  this is what they say on their website:

Attachment Attached File



They may have different specifications for different price levels so the drone may be telling the truth.

However, If what you say is correct it sounds like false advertising…
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