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Posted: 11/5/2018 5:49:12 PM EDT
No amount of motaring is freeing this thing up.
I have a AR10 that I built and has probably 250 rounds through it. I was shooting a reload test ladder on Sat when I saw a primer blow out (probably loose pocket as there weren't signs on the other loads. I believe I got all the bits cleared out after a quick inspection. Anyway, started another rung and the first round shot and extracted fine. Second round shot but did not extract. Now the spent cartridge is stuck in there and the bolt is locked in place. I may have been running it a bit low on lube, so I shot some penetrating oil down in the lug assembly, let it sit, hammered the bolt forward with a mallet and then tried mortaring again. Still no luck. When looking at the back of the lugs, which way do they need to rotate to unlock? They look to be almost center on the barrel extension lugs. I'll get some pictures after my kids conferences, but what should the next steps be after mortaring doesn't work? A quick google search said take it to a smith, but what are they going to do that I couldn't? |
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[#1]
Put a cleaning rod down the barrel and use a mallet to knock it out
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[#3]
Quoted:
No amount of motaring is freeing this thing up. I have a AR10 that I built and has probably 250 rounds through it. I was shooting a reload test ladder on Sat when I saw a primer blow out (probably loose pocket as there weren't signs on the other loads. I believe I got all the bits cleared out after a quick inspection. Anyway, started another rung and the first round shot and extracted fine. Second round shot but did not extract. Now the spent cartridge is stuck in there and the bolt is locked in place. I may have been running it a bit low on lube, so I shot some penetrating oil down in the lug assembly, let it sit, hammered the bolt forward with a mallet and then tried mortaring again. Still no luck. When looking at the back of the lugs, which way do they need to rotate to unlock? They look to be almost center on the barrel extension lugs. I'll get some pictures after my kids conferences, but what should the next steps be after mortaring doesn't work? A quick google search said take it to a smith, but what are they going to do that I couldn't? View Quote Clockwise |
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[#4]
It won't open up? You pounded the bolt forward?????? Why????? To get it open?
If it is all the way forward, take the lower receiver off, put something (screw driver) in the slot at the bottom of the bolt and use a block of wood or mallet to hammer the bolt to the rear. If the bolt isn't all the way forward, take the buffer tube/stock off the lower so you can see the bolt to determine if trying to move it to the rear is working (and to make rearward movement easier with nothing pushing forwards on it (buffer/spring). Then use that GI steel cleaning rod and a board/mallet to pound on the muzzle end of the cleaning rod till the bolt move rearward. Had a blown out primer hang up a bolt in an AR15 one time. A GI cleaning rod, inserted into the muzzle till it bottomed out in the brass and then pounded with a piece of wood got the bolt moving rearward till it popped loose. Good luck with it. Hopefully there's no damage from whatever is hanging the bolt up in the upper receiver. |
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[#5]
I pounded the bolt forward to see if that would release some of the rearward pressure on the bolt.
Yes the carrier was sticking out the back of the upper just enough to not let the upper break open on the back pin. I'll give the driving the bolt backwards with the cleaning rod as a next step. |
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[#6]
Well, driving it backwards with a cleaning rod didn't work either. I had a coated stainless rod that I wasn't using anymore that is now bent.
I'm going to bed before I do something irreversible. I also took a wooden dowel and knocked the carrier backwards, but couldn't get it to budge either. I may need more direction on how to brace the upper while doing some of this, but right now I'm giving up. |
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[#7]
Maybe a GI steel cleaning rod is a little tougher. Maybe not.
If you can get the buffer tube/buffer off could you hook something into the back of the bolt carrier that could be clamped into a bench vise? Then you might be able to yank the rifle "forward" to pull the bolt back. Can't say you had the same issue I had (primer locking up the bolt) but mine moved back part way and then the primer moved into a spot between the receiver and bolt that eliminated the friction/pressure and the bolt moved to the rear easily and the primer fell into the lower. I don't know where the primer was, just that it fell from the upper into the lower. |
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[#8]
Carrier has to come back away from the barrel extension face before the bolt lugs will unlock from the barrel extension lugs.
So pogo method is use to at least get the carrier back to unlock the bolt, and if the case is stuck well enough, the extractor just rips the rim of the case, leaving the spent case still in the chamber. As this point you can lower the B/C back down enough to push both take pins to the side to remove the upper from the lower, drop the B/C out, then you now go down the muzzle with a single piece cleaning rod to knock the case free. And again, if the bolt is locked, no amount of pounding down the bore is going to rotate to unlock the bolt. Worse case, and you can not pogo the rifle hard enough with charging handle pull at the same time to get the bolt to unlock (have yet to comes across this myself, since I pogo hard enough to at least rip the case rim off to get the bolt to unlock in the first place), then with upper off the lower, you can use a wedge tool between the front of the carrier and back of barrel extension to walk the carrrier back to get the bolt unlocked that way to begin with. To add, on a carbine rig, make sure to have stock in the closed postion, or just pull down on the butt stock lever to remove the telescoping stock from the receiver extension to start with. |
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[#9]
Dano523 makes a good point about the carrier.
Can you get the gas tube out? If you can get the gas tube out you might be able to put a long stemmed punch through the hole in the barrel nut/receiver and against the gas key and pound it to the rear? If the key get damaged it's not hard to replace on the carrier. |
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[#10]
Quoted:
Dano523 makes a good point about the carrier. Can you get the gas tube out? If you can get the gas tube out you might be able to put a long stemmed punch through the hole in the barrel nut/receiver and against the gas key and pound it to the rear? If the key get damaged it's not hard to replace on the carrier. View Quote To short bus it, remove the butt stock from the receiver extension if a carbine rig with telescoping stock,, put a piece of carpet on your reloading bench, and do the Pogo/mortor blows while pulling down on the charging handle. The inertia of the downward force coming to a quick stop helps the carrier work in your favor, to get the bolt unlocked. Hence even if you rip the rim off the spent round and the spent case stays in the chamber, at least this gets the bolt unlocked in the first place. So again, its too easy to Pogo with the charging handle pull to at least get the case rim to shear off, without harming the rifle. [youtube]https://youtu.be/kzBdyubc0Uk[/youtube] Or, if you can not pogo to get the carrier back (don't have your big boy panties on), then wedge tool between the bottom for the carrier and front/bottom of the barrel extension (since both are harden metals) will work to get the carrier to come back, cam the bolt over to unlock it from the lugs to tear the rim off the spent case. And now with the bolt unlocked, you can use the single piece cleaning rod down the bore to drive the spent case out of the chamber. Bottom line, until the the carrier comes back to cam over and unlock the bolt lugs from the barrel extension lugs, any force down the bore against the locked bolt, is not going to unlock the bolt. At most, all your going to do is shear the bolt lugs of the bolt. |
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[#11]
In the video Dano linked, it didnt take a hard hit at all to clear the jam. Am I right to assume that if its really stuck one would have to use a lot more force when mortaring?
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[#12]
Its not the hard hit, but the the abrupt dowward stop of the rifle, with the carrier still moving downward that really unlocks the Bolt on the stop.
In the case of the video jam, it just a bad feed of a live rund, and your case with a spent round instead, will take a little more mortor force isntead. So for this reason, pull the butt stock off the receiver extension, so you mortor down on the back of the receiver extension alone. Just remember, if the case is really stuck, we are just trying to get the bolt to unlock, and shear off the case rim to start with. This will have the B/C back so you can lock it back on the bolt catch, then use the single piece cleaning rod down the muzzle afterwards to clean the spent case chamber, without the bolt locking the spent case in the chamber. |
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[#14]
Carrier looks twisted.
Maybe the foward assist pawl fell out and is jamming the works? Edit, your barrel extension looks twisted too, the opposite direction of the carrier. Maybe the bolt can't turn far enough to clear the lugs. Can you loosen the barrel nut? |
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[#17]
@MadCowRacer
At this point you have a salvage operation. The barrel extension rotating like that means the indexing pin has either broken or the indexing pin notch in the upper was opened up by the pin pulling through it. Place the barrel in a vice, with barrel vice jaws, and see if you can get the barrel extension to rotate back into place. If yes, take a flat headed screw driver, thinner in diameter shaft, and place it the gap between the carrier and the upper, using the flat side of the blade to pivot off of the inside of the upper, leveraging the bolt carrier to the rear. Alternate from side to side, gently but sternly bouncing off of each side. If you have two screw drivers, do both sides at the same time. It will unlock the bolt by forcing the cam pin through the cam pin cut in the carrier. Once the bolt is unlocked the entire assembly may come out with the case. If the case is stuck then you may need to continue to leverage with the screw drivers to get the case to extract from the chamber or break free from the bolt face. Once you have the BCG free, disassemble the upper. Don't be shocked if you have to replace the upper and barrel nut. If the index pin sheared off, you may be able to get the pin replaced by someone like ADCO or you could get the barrel manufacture involved. Please take a few pics of your progress and updates with those and what you find. Good luck. |
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[#18]
Broken barrel extension pin is not the end of the world, since it just pressed in, and can be spun back out with a small drill bit. The new extension pin can be just pressed/lightly hammered back into the channel for it. The pin is just used for inital indexing of the barrel in the barrel socket, and it the barrel nut that should be holding the barrel tight in the upper receiver barrel socket isntead.
As for monolithic upper receiver with the built in hand guard, some are good system, while others not so much. Hence it all boils down to if the system will allow the barrel to be locked in place with a high enough specs or not in the first place. Hence the mega torques to 65ftlbs after you have lapped the threads in with torquing to 65, loosening, torquing to 65, loosening, then final tightening to 65ft lbs. [youtube]https://youtu.be/sUigxKmbKZ4[/youtube] Other monolithic barrels use a bolt clamp type style to lock the barrel in place, but not really fond of such, since the cross pin is not really deep enough through a mating slot/pin can peen to prevent the barrel from slipping from lateral torque isntead (bayonet type use). [youtube]https://youtu.be/uX1CCy4A1iE[/youtube] |
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[#19]
If I clamp the barrel what should I use to turn the upper? I was debating throwing a pipe wrench to the barrel since I have the upper clamp blocks but no good way to grab the barrel. I have a barrel clamp on order and I’m not in a hurry.
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[#20]
Your hands will most likely be able to rotate the upper if you can get a decent grip on the barrel with the vice. If you need a little extra leverage, you can put the clam shell for the upper over it and use it to grip the upper better.
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[#21]
If the gun was popping primers one may have lodge in the front portion of the cam pin slot keeping the cam pin for being able to move to the front of the slot. If I had the problem I might try turning the upper with the cam pin slot turned down and trying to get the primer to fall out of the slot just to see if it might be the problem.
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[#22]
Quoted:
If the gun was popping primers one may have lodge in the front portion of the cam pin slot keeping the cam pin for being able to move to the front of the slot. If I had the problem I might try turning the upper with the cam pin slot turned down and trying to get the primer to fall out of the slot just to see if it might be the probably. View Quote |
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[#23]
Quoted:
If I clamp the barrel what should I use to turn the upper? I was debating throwing a pipe wrench to the barrel since I have the upper clamp blocks but no good way to grab the barrel. I have a barrel clamp on order and I’m not in a hurry. View Quote Upper receiver gets clamped in a clam shell vise block with channel insert so you don't crush the side walls of the receiver. Barrel, I prefer the wood block type clamp T bar wrenches so I not maring the hell out of the barrel finish, but if push came to shove, piece of thicker belt type lever around the barrel, and then a good clamp type wrench like Channel locks to get grip on the barrel to run it with the leather soft jaws between it and the barrel, again so you not marring the finish on the barrel when you go to turn the barrel extension back to the correct index. At this point, remove the barrel nut, and let the broken barrel extension pin fall out to get it out of the way. Since you do have some room of the carrier moving backwards in the barrel extension, you may have to work the barrel slighting in and out of the barrel socket if the broken pin is trapped between the barrel extension lip and front of barrel socket surface to allow the sheared pin to drop out. Hence we need to get the barrel extension lip tight against the front of the barrel socket before we tighten the barrel nut again. Now you can reinstall the barrel nut, tighten it to 65ft lbs so the barrel is not going to spin again in the upper barrel socket. At this point, forgo the mortar method and just use a pry tool between the barrel extension face and the face of the carrier to work the carrier all the way back to unlock the bolt lugs from the barrel extension lugs, and to shear the rim off the spent round via the extractor. Now with the B/C unlocked and removed from the upper receiver, just remove the barrel from the upper receiver, with the spent case with torn off rim still in the barrel chamber. Single piece cleaning rod down the barrel against the webbing of the spent rim, chamber upwards, you do floor taps to the cleaning rod handle to drive the spent case out of the chamber. At this point, it time to break out the chamber brush to clean not only the chamber, but the void and lugs of the barrel extension. Now back on the broken barrel extension pin, mill to center drill out the sheared pin still in the channel, then press a new barrel extension pin back in. On the upper, take a look at the barrel socket slot for the pin, and if it not too bad, then standard clam shell upper vice block with barrel nut wrench is all that is needed. If the upper receiver barrel socket slot for the pin is totaled, then still no fear, since you can use a reactor rod to hold the barrel extension indexed correctly to the receiver as you tighten the barrel nut instead. Really, the only downfall, will be if the barrel nut threads on either the nut or the upper receiver at stripped to hell and need to be replaced instead. Lastly, since your upper appears to be a monolithic upper, knowing which one is its, will go a long way to add some other tricks as well if down the line you need to mortar again, to keep the barrel from spinning again in the upper receiver socket. To add here, when you do moly grease for an barrel install, its only the barrel nut side of the barrel extension flange that gets greased. The barrel extension body, and even the inner flange to socket face, does not get lubed, and in fact lefts in a dry start to maintain as much friction tension to prevent the barrel from rotating in the first place. |
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[#24]
The upper is an Aero M5 enhanced (I think)
I got the upper realigned with the barrel by heating the hell out of the upper an beating it with a mallet to get it to rotate. Now it's straight. I'm going to reinstall the barrel nut and start to pry. That being said, prior to getting it aligned I was trying the pry method because I couldn't get it to move by turning the barrel or the receiver by hand or 3/4" on the muzzle device. This thing is stuck in crazy ways. Prior to being aligned I gave up on the prying because it was only moving the carrier and getting too the point of denting the upper. While I'm not scared of ruining it at this point, I am trying to hold back everything to just cut it in half to know. I used a punch on the back of the hammer slot in the carrier thinking it would be a bit more acute than the mortaring, but no luck. I'm going to follow you guy's advice because and reapply the barrel nut, then try prying and hammering it out again. I can see the lugs at least changing position during the last few beatings it has taken. |
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[#26]
That screams over pressure with the ejector impression.
Did you check the head space or just assemble and shoot? |
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[#27]
What's the upper receiver look like without the barrel nut installed?
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[#28]
Quoted:
That screams over pressure with the ejector impression. Did you check the head space or just assemble and shoot? View Quote My gut tells me that the brass prior to this and shooting it through a suppressor might have dirtied the chamber up to the the point of creating more pressure. That bulge makes it look like the round was out of battery. Which makes me wonder if some of those marks were from me pounding on it from muzzle and hammering the bolt forward with the barrel but loose. |
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[#29]
If you look at most AR type barrels there is an angle cut where the round enters. Also an angle cut on the top inside front of the bolt. Then there is a clearance from the bolt front of the bolt to the barrel so it can rotate. Looks to me like the area of the case that is not supported stretched out and into the unsupported area because of the high pressure.
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[#30]
Short of the barrel extension pin that needs to be replace, the rest of the parts just need light file/sand paper clean up.
As for the spent case, the round when way over pressure, so would weed out just what happened. So on that note, give the barrel and chamber a good cleaning, then check the barrel bore for a budge via jig and tight clean wad down the barrel to feel for any loose/budged spots in the bore that may have happened with a obstructed bore (to cook the barrel). If barrel was not obstructed to cause the over pressure problems, then may have been back at the loading processes, with some faster burning powder that made it way into the round if you are sure that rest of the loads where not going over pressure. |
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[#31]
@Wangstang
The upper receiver is in the string of posts. The Aero enhanced isn’t monolithic, but the upper has an extension with a deeper recessed barrel nut. It does look like I might be able to get away with light sanding on this part. |
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[#32]
how did the barrel extension pin jump out of its slot? did the barrel nut come loose without being detected? undertorqued? or did the barrel come loose in the barrel extension (pin sheared)? just wondering how the hell...
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[#34]
@Dano523 - thanks for the blow-by-blow description, makes sense. so, innocuous undetected assembly error.
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[#35]
Yes at one point in this process I loosened the barrel nut to try and see if it would give me more slop or wiggle with the bolt.
I tightened it up after but didn’t torque it. Then somewhere in the process of using my rifle buttstock as a jack hammer it loosened and allowed the barrel to come out of the socket and twist making it worse. |
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[#37]
I used a flap wheel to buff down the high point in the upper. Now that barrel that was in it, and a back up barrel I swapped out earlier slide in and out like I'd consider normal. Snug, but not having to force it.
As far a squaring up the receiver, how should I remove the cerakote, and should I get the receiver squared up by a shop? Work is pretty forgiving for borrowing the mill for a short personal job, but they don't like bringing guns or parts into the shop. |
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[#39]
I'll give acetone a try, but I thought cerakote's baking process made it mostly chemical insolvent. Something I used (PB blast, boreKleen, or CLP) or less aggressive prep of the surface initially definitely made the coating come off easier in the extension area than the rest of the receiver.
I get what you are saying as far as truing up the barrel and receiver but it also shot very well prior to the mishap with that coating in there. As far as torqueing goes, I usually use the torque wrench and dry torque it at least three times prior to putting it all together. I know that most would suggest grease on the threads, but I don't like wet torque variances. I'd rather torque it two or three times dry and use heat on the aluminum if I ever need to pull it apart again. |
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[#40]
Will get a false torque reading with the threads, and even the face of the barrel nut where it going to make down on the barrel extension flange lips if not moly-greased.
Hence the two false torques to 35flbls and loosening, then third torque to 35 to begin with, are all to mate the surfaces in to begin with, then the barrel nut is taken past the third 35ftbls torque value, but not to exceed 80ft lbs, to index barrel nut top spine void/gas tube channel with the upper receiver channel so the gas tube does not rub/bind on the upper receiver gas tube channel. Also, the moly grease prevents the surfaces from galling/later oxidizing, to make pulling the barrel nut off a later time dam near impossible instead. |
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