Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 11/5/2018 5:49:12 PM EDT
No amount of motaring is freeing this thing up.

I have a AR10 that I built and has probably 250 rounds through it.  I was shooting a reload test ladder on Sat when I saw a primer blow out (probably loose pocket as there weren't signs on the other loads.  I believe I got all the bits cleared out after a quick inspection.

Anyway, started another rung and the first round shot and extracted fine. Second round shot but did not extract. Now the spent cartridge is stuck in there and the bolt is locked in place.

I may have been running it a bit low on lube, so I shot some penetrating oil down in the lug assembly, let it sit, hammered the bolt forward with a mallet and then tried mortaring again. Still no luck.   When looking at the back of the lugs, which way do they need to rotate to unlock?  They look to be almost center on the barrel extension lugs.

I'll get some pictures after my kids conferences, but what should the next steps be after mortaring doesn't work?  A quick google search said take it to a smith, but what are they going to do that I couldn't?
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 5:54:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Put a cleaning rod down the barrel and use a mallet to knock it out
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 6:34:54 PM EDT
[#2]
smack the but on the floor
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 6:54:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
No amount of motaring is freeing this thing up.

I have a AR10 that I built and has probably 250 rounds through it.  I was shooting a reload test ladder on Sat when I saw a primer blow out (probably loose pocket as there weren't signs on the other loads.  I believe I got all the bits cleared out after a quick inspection.

Anyway, started another rung and the first round shot and extracted fine. Second round shot but did not extract. Now the spent cartridge is stuck in there and the bolt is locked in place.

I may have been running it a bit low on lube, so I shot some penetrating oil down in the lug assembly, let it sit, hammered the bolt forward with a mallet and then tried mortaring again. Still no luck.   When looking at the back of the lugs, which way do they need to rotate to unlock?  They look to be almost center on the barrel extension lugs.

I'll get some pictures after my kids conferences, but what should the next steps be after mortaring doesn't work?  A quick google search said take it to a smith, but what are they going to do that I couldn't?
View Quote
When looking at the back of the lugs, which way do they need to rotate to unlock?
Clockwise
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 6:55:04 PM EDT
[#4]
It won't open up?  You pounded the bolt forward??????  Why?????  To get it open?

If it is all the way forward, take the lower receiver off, put something (screw driver) in the slot at the bottom of the bolt and use a block of wood or mallet to hammer the bolt to the rear.

If the bolt isn't all the way forward, take the buffer tube/stock off the lower so you can see the bolt to determine if trying to move it to the rear is working (and to make rearward movement easier with nothing pushing forwards on it (buffer/spring).  Then use that GI steel cleaning rod and a board/mallet to pound on the muzzle end of the cleaning rod till the bolt move rearward.

Had a blown out primer hang up a bolt in an AR15 one time.  A GI cleaning rod, inserted into the muzzle till it bottomed out in the brass and then pounded with a piece of wood got the bolt moving rearward till it popped loose.

Good luck with it.  Hopefully there's no damage from whatever is hanging the bolt up in the upper receiver.
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 8:23:19 PM EDT
[#5]
I pounded the bolt forward to see if that would release some of the rearward pressure on the bolt.

Yes the carrier was sticking out the back of the upper just enough to not let the upper break open on the back pin.

I'll give the driving the bolt backwards with the cleaning rod as a next step.
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 8:48:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Well, driving it backwards with a cleaning rod didn't work either.  I had a coated stainless rod that I wasn't using anymore that is now bent.

I'm going to bed before I do something irreversible.  I also took a wooden dowel and knocked the carrier backwards, but couldn't get it to budge either.  I may need more direction on how to brace the upper while doing some of this, but right now I'm giving up.
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 9:06:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Maybe a GI steel cleaning rod is a little tougher.  Maybe not.

If you can get the buffer tube/buffer off could you hook something into the back of the bolt carrier that could be clamped into a bench vise?  Then you might be able to yank the rifle "forward" to pull the bolt back.

Can't say you had the same issue I had (primer locking up the bolt) but mine moved back part way and then the primer moved into a spot between the receiver and bolt that eliminated the friction/pressure and the bolt moved to the rear easily and the primer fell into the lower.  I don't know where the primer was, just that it fell from the upper into the lower.
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 10:55:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 7:21:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Dano523 makes a good point about the carrier.

Can you get the gas tube out?  If you can get the gas tube out you might be able to put a long stemmed punch through the hole in the barrel nut/receiver and against the gas key and pound it to the rear?  If the key get damaged it's not hard to replace on the carrier.
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 1:08:03 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 3:03:32 PM EDT
[#11]
In the video Dano linked, it didnt take a hard hit at all to clear the jam. Am I right to assume that if its really stuck one would have to use a lot more force when mortaring?
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 3:41:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 8:56:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Ok so I understand the whole motaring/POGO'ing concept and have done it before even with this rifle on a stuck case.  I've never ripped the rim off a case (or had to) but I'm not sure how much harder I could hit this thing to make a difference.  Its like the cam just stops at a certain point.

I thought I started to get some more rearward movement and thought I had it.  Then it locked up what movement I thought I had gained. During the POGO'ing the barrel nut had come loose so I just kept tightening it by hand not thinking about it.

This is the furthest the carrier would move back


now the barrel has spun a bit and it doesn't seem that the lugs have moved past each other at all.



I can't get the camera to focus on the lugs well enough to show that they aren't moving past center (not much if they are)

So let's assume that this is a bolt bound on the extension, or a piece of brass preventing the lugs from turning.  How should I proceed next.  If I beat this thing against my basement floor any harder I'll probably strike oil.

The rifle has a PRS stock on it, but I'll take the butplate off and go straight to the tube if you think it will help at all.
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 9:01:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Carrier looks twisted.

Maybe the foward assist pawl fell out and is jamming the works?

Edit, your barrel extension looks twisted too, the opposite direction of the carrier.  Maybe the bolt can't turn far enough to clear the lugs.  Can you loosen the barrel nut?
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 9:14:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Barrel twisted in the receiver!

DAMN!
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 9:39:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 9:47:14 PM EDT
[#17]
@MadCowRacer

At this point you have a salvage operation.

The barrel extension rotating like that means the indexing pin has either broken or the indexing pin notch in the upper was opened up by the pin pulling through it.

Place the barrel in a vice, with barrel vice jaws, and see if you can get the barrel extension to rotate back into place.

If yes, take a flat headed screw driver, thinner in diameter shaft, and place it the gap between the carrier and the upper, using the flat side of the blade to pivot off of the inside of the upper, leveraging the bolt carrier to the rear.  Alternate from side to side, gently but sternly bouncing off of each side.  If you have two screw drivers, do both sides at the same time.  It will unlock the bolt by forcing the cam pin through the cam pin cut in the carrier.  Once the bolt is unlocked the entire assembly may come out with the case.  If the case is stuck then you may need to continue to leverage with the screw drivers to get the case to extract from the chamber or break free from the bolt face.

Once you have the BCG free, disassemble the upper.  Don't be shocked if you have to replace the upper and barrel nut.  If the index pin sheared off, you may be able to get the pin replaced by someone like ADCO or you could get the barrel manufacture involved.

Please take a few pics of your progress and updates with those and what you find.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 11/7/2018 2:54:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 11/7/2018 8:31:00 PM EDT
[#19]
If I clamp the barrel what should I use to turn the upper?  I was debating throwing a pipe wrench to the barrel since I have the upper clamp blocks but no good way to grab the barrel. I have a barrel clamp on order and I’m not in a hurry.
Link Posted: 11/7/2018 11:34:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Your hands will most likely be able to rotate the upper if you can get a decent grip on the barrel with the vice.  If you need a little extra leverage, you can put the clam shell for the upper over it and use it to grip the upper better.
Link Posted: 11/8/2018 12:21:22 AM EDT
[#21]
If the gun was popping primers one may have lodge in the front portion of the cam pin slot keeping the cam pin for being able to move to the front of the slot. If I had the problem I might try turning the upper with the cam pin slot turned down and trying to get the primer to fall out of the slot just to see if it might be the problem.
Link Posted: 11/8/2018 10:24:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If the gun was popping primers one may have lodge in the front portion of the cam pin slot keeping the cam pin for being able to move to the front of the slot. If I had the problem I might try turning the upper with the cam pin slot turned down and trying to get the primer to fall out of the slot just to see if it might be the probably.
View Quote
Great advice. That is actually something I haven’t tried. I’ll give that a shit while I wait. Might even get some canned air to try and blow it out since their is a lifetime worth of lube and penetrating oil in the receiver now.
Link Posted: 11/8/2018 1:36:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 11/11/2018 8:49:46 PM EDT
[#24]
The upper is an Aero M5 enhanced (I think)

I got the upper realigned with the barrel by heating the hell out of the upper an beating it with a mallet to get it to rotate.

Now it's straight.  I'm going to reinstall the barrel nut and start to pry.

That being said, prior to getting it aligned I was trying the pry method because I couldn't get it to move by turning the barrel or the receiver by hand or 3/4" on the muzzle device.  This thing is stuck in crazy ways.

Prior to being aligned I gave up on the prying because it was only moving the carrier and getting too the point of denting the upper. While I'm not scared of ruining it at this point, I am trying to hold back everything to just cut it in half to know.  I used a punch on the back of the hammer slot in the carrier thinking it would be a bit more acute than the mortaring, but no luck.

I'm going to follow you guy's advice because and reapply the barrel nut, then try prying and hammering it out again.  I can see the lugs at least changing position during the last few beatings it has taken.
Link Posted: 11/12/2018 9:54:43 PM EDT
[#25]
@Dano523
@Wangstang

Thanks for the advice

I got it apart and here is the visual damage.

Carrier from using a combination wrench to drive the carrier back because prying was F'in up the upper easy


Barrel extension pin smash


Prying damage on upper and some missed dead blow hammer hits....hard hits



barrel socket slot



cartridge after it finally came out.  I'm guessing damage was from smashing things back and forth because I'm not sure you can get this to fire out of battery to cause that bulge like a rimmed magnum. Primer was in the right place, but fell out as soon as the case pupped off the bolt.



Link Posted: 11/12/2018 10:01:37 PM EDT
[#26]
That screams over pressure with the ejector impression.

Did you check the head space or just assemble and shoot?
Link Posted: 11/12/2018 10:06:02 PM EDT
[#27]
What's the upper receiver look like without the barrel nut installed?
Link Posted: 11/13/2018 3:54:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That screams over pressure with the ejector impression.

Did you check the head space or just assemble and shoot?
View Quote
Assembled and shot. This wasn’t the maiden voyage. It’s had probably over 100 rounds maybe closer to 200 through it (match ammo isn’t cheap). It was a matched bolt and barrel. Once I tuned the gas block I wasn’t getting any pressure signs.

My gut tells me that the brass prior to this and shooting it through a suppressor might have dirtied the chamber up to the the point of creating more pressure.

That bulge makes it look like the round was out of battery. Which makes me wonder if some of those marks were from me pounding on it from muzzle and hammering the bolt forward with the barrel but loose.
Link Posted: 11/13/2018 4:34:19 PM EDT
[#29]
If you look at most AR type barrels there is an angle cut where the round enters. Also an angle cut on the top inside front of the bolt. Then there is a clearance from the bolt front of the bolt to the barrel so it can rotate. Looks to me like the area of the case that is not supported stretched out and into the unsupported area because of the high pressure.
Link Posted: 11/13/2018 5:39:12 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 11/14/2018 9:41:55 AM EDT
[#31]
@Wangstang

The upper receiver is in the string of posts. The Aero enhanced isn’t monolithic, but the upper has an extension with a deeper recessed barrel nut.

It does look like I might be able to get away with light sanding on this part.
Link Posted: 11/15/2018 6:14:02 AM EDT
[#32]
how did the barrel extension pin jump out of its slot?  did the barrel nut come loose without being detected?  undertorqued?   or did the barrel come loose in the barrel extension (pin sheared)?  just wondering how the hell...
Link Posted: 11/15/2018 3:56:50 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 11/15/2018 11:37:49 PM EDT
[#34]
@Dano523 - thanks for the blow-by-blow description, makes sense.  so, innocuous undetected assembly error.
Link Posted: 11/16/2018 5:14:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Yes at one point in this process I loosened the barrel nut to try and see if it would give me more slop or wiggle with the bolt.

I tightened it up after but didn’t torque it. Then somewhere in the process of using my rifle buttstock as a jack hammer it loosened and allowed the barrel to come out of the socket and twist making it worse.
Link Posted: 11/16/2018 6:29:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 11/27/2018 10:13:05 PM EDT
[#37]
I used a flap wheel to buff down the high point in the upper.  Now that barrel that was in it, and a back up barrel I swapped out earlier slide in and out like I'd consider normal.  Snug, but not having to force it.
As far a squaring up the receiver, how should I remove the cerakote, and should I get the receiver squared up by a shop?   Work is pretty forgiving for borrowing the mill for a short personal job, but they don't like bringing guns or parts into the shop.
Link Posted: 11/28/2018 12:46:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 12/3/2018 10:11:19 PM EDT
[#39]
I'll give acetone a try, but I thought cerakote's baking process made it mostly chemical insolvent. Something I used (PB blast, boreKleen, or CLP) or less aggressive prep of the surface initially definitely made the coating come off easier in the extension area than the rest of the receiver.

I get what you are saying as far as truing up the barrel and receiver but it also shot very well prior to the mishap with that coating in there.   As far as torqueing goes, I usually use the torque wrench and dry torque it at least three times prior to  putting it all together. I know that most would suggest grease on the threads, but I don't like wet torque variances.  I'd rather torque it two or three times dry and use heat on the aluminum if I ever need to pull it apart again.
Link Posted: 12/4/2018 12:10:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top