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Posted: 1/27/2020 9:38:39 AM EDT
[#1]
"Gold Dot rifle bullets are optimized to ensure expansion out of barrels down to 10" at a wide variety of velocities out to 200 yards" is what Speer says
I don't have exactly what your looking for but the Gold dots in any weight are excellent performers. They expand some down to a pretty low velocity but I don't remember exactly off the top of my head so I'll refrain from putting a number. 200 yards for a 10" in barrel is a good rule of thumb terminal ballistics wise 55s still expanding at 2200 ish FPS just a random video I found |
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Posted: 1/27/2020 8:58:30 PM EDT
[#2]
We've seen 62 gr Fusion (same thing as Gold Dot) expand down to 1703 FPS, although it's kind of on the edge at that point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otou1Fws4cQ I'd guess probably about ~1650 FPS. Note at this point the bullet will probably not be doing any temporary cavitation damage to flexible organs, instead causing wounding purely by crush. Accordingly its effectiveness is likely to be more along the lines of a 9mm FMJ. |
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Posted: 1/28/2020 3:00:36 AM EDT
[#3]
1600fps is the threshold I've been given. I shoot the 75gr GD, and it is phenomenally accurate and is a great white tail round here. solid 400yrd effective range out of my 20".
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Posted: 1/28/2020 7:05:51 PM EDT
[#4]
I've seen anywhere from 1600-1800fps quoted. One thing to remember is that there is a difference between minimum and full expansion. IOW, at 2500fps it might expand into .44x, while at 1600 you might only get to .23x.
I don't recall seeing any testing done between the various weights to see if there is a difference in threshold between 55/64/75. I'm assuming not based off of Speer's answers to questions, but... |
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Posted: 1/28/2020 7:08:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Also, the claimed BC is WAY off, so you're going to have to calculate for yourself where your bullets from your tube actually cross the magic number.
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Posted: 1/28/2020 7:50:49 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen anywhere from 1600-1800fps quoted. One thing to remember is that there is a difference between minimum and full expansion. IOW, at 2500fps it might expand into .44x, while at 1600 you might only get to .23x. I don't recall seeing any testing done between the various weights to see if there is a difference in threshold between 55/64/75. I'm assuming not based off of Speer's answers to questions, but... |
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Posted: 1/28/2020 9:42:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Usually when we do this, it depends on what you want to call “expansion”. Some here have a very liberal definition of the term, to include most any deformation of the bullet. If that’s what you’re comfortable with, I’ve heard numbers as low as sub-teens.
I think that’s silly, and prefer the 1800ish neighborhood as the minimum. Also, and it’s been said already, Speer is a little optimistic with their BCs. ETA: FWIW their “10 inch @ 200yd” claim puts it at about 1900ish FPS (depending on specific variables) based on the chrono and environmental variables I have stored for the 55gr round. |
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Posted: 1/29/2020 6:41:43 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
75 gr Gold Dot seems to have a somewhat higher expansion threshold, more along the lines of 2000 FPS as I recall. Poboyspecial has a video of a short barrel test, although it uses clear gel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've seen anywhere from 1600-1800fps quoted. One thing to remember is that there is a difference between minimum and full expansion. IOW, at 2500fps it might expand into .44x, while at 1600 you might only get to .23x. I don't recall seeing any testing done between the various weights to see if there is a difference in threshold between 55/64/75. I'm assuming not based off of Speer's answers to questions, but... |
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Posted: 1/29/2020 8:14:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
75 gr Gold Dot seems to have a somewhat higher expansion threshold, more along the lines of 2000 FPS as I recall. Poboyspecial has a video of a short barrel test, although it uses clear gel. |
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Posted: 1/29/2020 9:47:07 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to Speer, no. The 75gr GD was developed specifically for SBRs and lower velocity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've seen anywhere from 1600-1800fps quoted. One thing to remember is that there is a difference between minimum and full expansion. IOW, at 2500fps it might expand into .44x, while at 1600 you might only get to .23x. I don't recall seeing any testing done between the various weights to see if there is a difference in threshold between 55/64/75. I'm assuming not based off of Speer's answers to questions, but... |
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Posted: 1/29/2020 10:03:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He also tested 70gr TSX to not expand at over 2000fps, so grain of salt. |
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Posted: 2/1/2020 6:45:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Anyone know how fast 62g is from a 20"? I'd like to do a build which they line up with a 5.56 62g bdc to 600 yards.
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Posted: 2/1/2020 7:23:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone know how fast 62g is from a 20"? I'd like to do a build which they line up with a 5.56 62g bdc to 600 yards. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Gold-Dot-62gr-vs-64gr-vs-Federal-XM223SP1-Velocity-Tests-11-5-and-16-Barrels/16-729929/ There's going to be ~300fps or more difference between the GD and a 5.56 62gr. |
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Posted: 2/1/2020 10:58:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone know how fast 62g is from a 20"? I'd like to do a build which they line up with a 5.56 62g bdc to 600 yards. I was trying to do the same with the 55gr. I gave up and just zeroed with the BDC round. The GD is perfectly close out to the intermediate ranges it actually gets used at. |
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Posted: 2/2/2020 5:33:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He also tested 70gr TSX to not expand at over 2000fps, so grain of salt. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
75 gr Gold Dot seems to have a somewhat higher expansion threshold, more along the lines of 2000 FPS as I recall. Poboyspecial has a video of a short barrel test, although it uses clear gel. |
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Posted: 2/2/2020 5:38:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For some reason, Speer's 62/64gr GD load is slow af. It's slower then steel case russian 62gr .223 plinking loads. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Gold-Dot-62gr-vs-64gr-vs-Federal-XM223SP1-Velocity-Tests-11-5-and-16-Barrels/16-729929/ There's going to be ~300fps or more difference between the GD and a 5.56 62gr. |
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Posted: 2/2/2020 9:12:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Shameful. I asked Speer what barrel length they were getting 3000fps at as well as if they planned 5.56 GDs, but no reply.
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Posted: 2/2/2020 11:01:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you mean under 2,000 fps? I could see that. I know the 70 TSX reliably expands at higher velocities. I handload most of the .224 caliber Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets. Everything from 50 grains to 70 grains. Not to digress, but I find the 62 grain version to be the most versatile. Go lighter and high velocity can break off petals at close range, go heavier and, indeed, expansion suffers at lower velocities. But, above 2,000 the 70;expands nicely, at least on white tail deer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVZKPoOKRRI |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 10:50:44 AM EDT
[#19]
1800 FPS. Here's what Strelok Pro tells me, from my 18" barrel, a Ruger AR556 MPR, 5R 1:8
(velocities were obtained by chrono this summer): 55 grain MV: 2997 (average 3 shots) Range to 1800 fps: ~295 yards 64 grain MV: 2744 (average 3 shots) Range to 1800 FPS: ~300 yards 75 grain MV: 2590 (average 3 shots) Range: ~390 yards Note this is at my altitude, around 5000 feet, at temp of 70F. Using the "GL" drag function for a blunt-tipped lead nose projectile. Keep in mind 1800 is the absolute lowest, so to be safe, I take 20 yards off the "range to 1800" personally, and keep my shots under that (if I ever had to hunt or use for SD) |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 6:56:13 PM EDT
[#20]
I got full expansion (.42x) at 287 yards from a 55gr GD from a 16" tube on a deer. DRT.
(Those numbers are from memory and could be a shade off, but they're very close without digging out my notes.) |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 3:19:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I got full expansion (.42x) at 287 yards from a 55gr GD from a 16" tube on a deer. DRT. (Those numbers are from memory and could be a shade off, but they're very close without digging out my notes.) |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 2:31:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Yes, I'm sure it's in the archives. It was pretty much a perfect commercial for the bullet.
Edit: I couldn't find my original thread, but here's a thread where I posted pics. I eventually remembered my rangefinder and ranged the bush he was standing behind, it was either 283 or 287 yards. The trees have grown up so much that I can't shoot those same gongs any more, I need to get it cleaned up again. Link |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 3:45:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I'm sure it's in the archives. It was pretty much a perfect commercial for the bullet. Edit: I couldn't find my original thread, but here's a thread where I posted pics. I eventually remembered my rangefinder and ranged the bush he was standing behind, it was either 283 or 287 yards. The trees have grown up so much that I can't shoot those same gongs any more, I need to get it cleaned up again. Link |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:46:13 PM EDT
[#24]
I found the pics on my computer. I have the bullet around somewhere I think, but haven't found it yet.
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Posted: 2/4/2020 10:01:26 PM EDT
[#25]
I found it and measured it. My memory was waaaayy off. It was .524 at it's widest, and .342 in between the petals.
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Posted: 2/7/2020 6:25:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Stick to 1800fps as threshold for full effect expansion and reliability.
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Posted: 2/13/2020 12:17:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found it and measured it. My memory was waaaayy off. It was .524 at it's widest, and .342 in between the petals. Do you have any pictures of the wound tract? How did it look? Were things shredded, or was it a "hole poked"? Were any ribs/bones hit, or soft tissue only? |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 12:52:11 PM EDT
[#28]
I called and spoke with SPEER this morning.
RE: 75gr Gold Dot, expansion will initiate at 1600fps impact ("It will sorta start to peel back, not what we would call a nice mushroom"). At 1800fps, it will be very robust expansion ("will mushroom out nice"). *Quotes as best I remember them. RE: 55/62gr Gold dot: It will expand at 1800fps. When asked if it needed 2000fps therefore to be robust, the person I spoke with seemed to waffle a second and then opined that yes, that's a good idea to ensure it. Above, we have a bullet that expanded wonderfully...but keep in mind these are soft-points. The more resistance they encounter the fatter they plump up when t hey hit. The poster above shot a deer. Deer have "tough" hide, and dense musculature compared to many people out there. I would not count on getting that performance out of a criminal in your livingroom. I also wouldn't DIScount it working that well, either. |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 1:28:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I called and spoke with SPEER this morning. RE: 75gr Gold Dot, expansion will initiate at 1600fps impact ("It will sorta start to peel back, not what we would call a nice mushroom"). At 1800fps, it will be very robust expansion ("will mushroom out nice"). *Quotes as best I remember them. RE: 55/62gr Gold dot: It will expand at 1800fps. When asked if it needed 2000fps therefore to be robust, the person I spoke with seemed to waffle a second and then opined that yes, that's a good idea to ensure it. Above, we have a bullet that expanded wonderfully...but keep in mind these are soft-points. The more resistance they encounter the fatter they plump up when t hey hit. The poster above shot a deer. Deer have "tough" hide, and dense musculature compared to many people out there. I would not count on getting that performance out of a criminal in your livingroom. I also wouldn't DIScount it working that well, either. Might want to post in this thread too, we have a few going on this topic. Just so people see it 
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Posted: 2/15/2020 11:24:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That bullet impacted at roughly 1800fps. Do you have any pictures of the wound tract? How did it look? Were things shredded, or was it a "hole poked"? Were any ribs/bones hit, or soft tissue only? You're right, if it hadn't hit rib (twice), it probably would've expanded so well. I've only "caught" one other GD, out of hundreds of shots, all the others fully penetrated, even over 24". They also all left nasty wound tracts, and the vast majority left a dead animal in a very short distance. The one 64gr I recovered expanded to a similar diameter, but left more shank. As I recall, that one hit a rib on the way in, but not on the way out. It was also on a deer, from a 16" tube, but at more like 125-150 yards. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:32:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No pics of the wound, it was great, though. It shattered about 2" of rib on the entrance, fragged that all through the back of the lungs and liver, which were jellified. It broke and penetrated another rib on the off side, and the bullet was caught in the skin. It perforated the skin on the back side, and it bled a little, it came VERY close to completely exiting. You're right, if it hadn't hit rib (twice), it probably would've expanded so well. I've only "caught" one other GD, out of hundreds of shots, all the others fully penetrated, even over 24". They also all left nasty wound tracts, and the vast majority left a dead animal in a very short distance. The one 64gr I recovered expanded to a similar diameter, but left more shank. As I recall, that one hit a rib on the way in, but not on the way out. It was also on a deer, from a 16" tube, but at more like 125-150 yards. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 8:57:21 AM EDT
[#32]
I lasered it. It was pretty easy as I knew exactly where I was standing, and he was hiding in a particular bush a hill over. I brought my rangefinder probably a month later and ranged it. I was guessing between 275 and 300, because I knew it was further than my 250 yard gong. I would have to look it up to be exact, but I think it was 287 or 283 yards, but it was definitely 28X. I didn't take angle into account, but it was relatively flat, hilltop to hilltop, probably around 10-15 degrees.
My youngest boy basically gut shot him, I wouldn't have taken that shot otherwise. He was hiding in a bush and the only clear shot I had was basically a liver shot, toward the back of the ribs. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:08:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shameful. I asked Speer what barrel length they were getting 3000fps at as well as if they planned 5.56 GDs, but no reply. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 5:44:09 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I lasered it. It was pretty easy as I knew exactly where I was standing, and he was hiding in a particular bush a hill over. I brought my rangefinder probably a month later and ranged it. I was guessing between 275 and 300, because I knew it was further than my 250 yard gong. I would have to look it up to be exact, but I think it was 287 or 283 yards, but it was definitely 28X. I didn't take angle into account, but it was relatively flat, hilltop to hilltop, probably around 10-15 degrees. My youngest boy basically gut shot him, I wouldn't have taken that shot otherwise. He was hiding in a bush and the only clear shot I had was basically a liver shot, toward the back of the ribs. Also to the below, 55gr GDSP clocks right at 3K from a 16.1" barrel, my old DDM4 CHF/gov barrel, to be precise, with about 6K rounds on it when I tested that ammo. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 11:07:05 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Excellent. Thanks! Also to the below, 55gr GDSP clocks right at 3K from a 16.1" barrel, my old DDM4 CHF/gov barrel, to be precise, with about 6K rounds on it when I tested that ammo. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 3:42:07 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that the .223 55gr Gold Dot? |
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Posted: 3/14/2020 1:25:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My post was error-free. This is why I cautioned that his 75gr gold dot test may be in question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVZKPoOKRRI Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Did you mean under 2,000 fps? I could see that. I know the 70 TSX reliably expands at higher velocities. I handload most of the .224 caliber Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets. Everything from 50 grains to 70 grains. Not to digress, but I find the 62 grain version to be the most versatile. Go lighter and high velocity can break off petals at close range, go heavier and, indeed, expansion suffers at lower velocities. But, above 2,000 the 70;expands nicely, at least on white tail deer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVZKPoOKRRI What was the twist rate of that very short test barrel? It will need to have a faster twist to stabilize the bullet. This is completely different from expansion threshold. According to Berger’s twist rate calculator the Barnes 70 TSX is stable in flight down to 1500 fps from a 1:7 twist barrel. I got the length and BC from Barnes website. The keyholing in that video is due to slow twist. In a 1:7 barrel that bullet would remain stable and arrive nose first, permitting the hollow point to expand as intended. PoBoy spent a lot of time testing with the wrong twist barrel to evaluate expansion. The results are useless for answering the question posed, that of expansion threshold. Now, expansion threshold is a completely different thing. Lesson: twist rate matters. The bullet must be stable in flight and hit the target on its axis if expansion is to occur as expected. Then, you can evaluate expansion threshold velocity. 
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Posted: 3/24/2020 4:53:38 PM EDT
[#38]
That guy in the video better count his lucky stars he didn't have a baffle strike in his suppressor due to an unstable bullet!
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