Now that ATF is rewriting and creating laws out of thin air and re defining the English language via Orwellian word speak to regulate AR pistol OAL to 26"<, those running barrels longer than 11.5" while using a "std. 6.5" tube length will have some decisions to make based on the 4999 form in it's current language.  Not that it matters because ATF already states (despite what the form may seem to imply) it reserves the right to deem "any" configuration what ever it wants when it wants in the opening statement on the 4999 form.

Shorter than std. buffer tubes might be a solution vs. a re-barrel...................but are they a reliable alternative?

Strike Ind. makes one that's affordable other options cost 50% - 75% the price of a decent barrel.

Any operators/users  having experience with these short recoil systems chime in.

I thought this needed to be visited in that the ATF isn't going to bend or give in on anything under "potato head" in changing the final draft of the rule.

12, 12.5, 13.5 when longer becomes a liability

No brace, no problem.

SBR, no problem.

Quit stressing about something undefined that hasn’t happened yet.

This is not GD

-C

LWRC UCIW has been 100% for me

This is not GD

-C

This is not GD

-C

In situations like this, I think it's helpful to pray to the founding fathers for guidance.  

This is not GD

-C

This is not GD

-C

Same here.

I've used the Strike one and had no issues with it.

My apologies, but I didn't throw the first punch.  

I don't see any advantages in a shorter buffer tube when we are talking talking about "alternative" uses of a pistol brace.  If LOP is shorter than 12.5"ish it is not practical so a standard round buffer tube with a clamp on brace and a 10.5" barrel is the simplest and most effective way to beat the proposed system.  If you go longer with the barrel you will have to go shorter with the tube.  

IDK if a Law folder will get a longer barrel under the maximum length.  It seems like AFT changes the way they measure as they see fit.  If a pistol OAL is measured when folded you might be able to use a standard tube with an even longer barrel.  

But I don't see where shortening LOP to the point where it is no longer useful to shoulder is an answer to this question.  But as always, JMHO, YMMV, etc.

Again, apologize for losing my shit.  Not my typical SOP.

s4s4u  I as well extend my hand in a truce.  Least we forget we are all on the same team. I took your statement of levity too serious and it was undeserving of the heavy out going fire.  I should have know better having read many of the other valuable post you have contributed surrounding this topic. Peace

Exploring this was to ascertain the possibilities of  having a pistol within the optimum operational limits of both a short weapon and still being equally or more reliable than the 11.5" with superior ballistics.  We know we are limited on the ATF's  dubious application of length of pull depending on the points one is willing to acquirer but that is a separate measurement unrelated to OAL which is done from the bare muzzle (no flash hider) to the rear of the buffer tube of choice unless a folding attachment is used.  SEC III "attachment method" only acquires points if longer than Std., adjustable, has notches  and or is used in conjunction with spacers or a folding device etc.  There is no penalty for using a shorter tube.

12.5" barrel will put an AR pistol approx 1" to 1.2" over 26" when using a std. buffer tube measured 6.5" from the end plate.  Hence using a shorter tube such as the Strike Ind. or other at just over 5"   ( 4.5" from the end plate) would in theory allow for a 13" barrel.   Using a Shock Wave blade type brace  ( set screw type )  and the rear drain hole of the Strike ind. SBT as a set screw detent results in the AFT's application of LOP as an est. 11.5"  =  1 point as per 4999 Sec III  .

12.5"-13" barrel would still have an OAL of 26"  and an ATF application of LOP at 11.5"  should alternative shooting styles be an option...Not too bad ?
NOTE: The buffer tube will only be half way through the pistol brace.


The fly in the ointment is the reliability factor over time of shorter buffer tubes with high spring rates and light buffers.  This might be a wash since the dwell time is now increased with lower pressures due to the longer barrel.  If 11.5" = 40% more dwell time over a 10.5",  then 12.5" = 80% more dwell time= a 19% reduction in pressures from 11,500 psi down to 9,300psi approx.




This topic also brings up those using the VLTOR A5 buffer system that is .75" longer than the std buffer tube for better reliability as proclaimed by some in 10.3" to 11.5" barrels .  Unfortunately the VLTOR  A5 with any barrel over 10.75" will bust 26" OAL as per 4999.  Those having reliability issues  which the A5 solved will need to look at other remedies to gain better more reliable function be it Adj gas blocks, springs , buffers etc.  

I am using supplied measurements, so without actually having in hand these items to assemble there is a possible error of .12" +-  depending but you get the over all idea.

The good news possibly is that SCOTUS is seeing the light  in restoring or republic using judicial review.  With any luck all of this might be for naught should they decide to revisit the NFA as it pertains to alternative shooting methods.

Is the 26" oal limit something they are pushing out with the new complicated rules?

Because there currently isn't a 26" limit for ar pistols.

It is poorly written in the new rules, but it is implied that it you cannot have a brace on the weapon when the OAL is 26"'s or greater.   You can remove the brace and be fine as a pistol (assuming no rules change).

Hopefully some lawsuits happen and all of this gets tossed or blocked.

Might depend on the buffer tube, but on mine, an 11.5" barrel makes it with ease, while a 12.5" barrel is just a hair over 26 inches.  Remember, muzzle device should be removed when measuring OAL (I don't think the AFT did that in the examples they used).

On a side note, under the current interpretation of how to measure an AR pistol with a LAW folder, a 12.5" would easily stay under the 26" limit with a folder.  You just have to be mindful of the weight, buffer and LOP rules.  There is a hard rule (4 demerit points) in the worksheet on the 120oz limit with a brace.
I tested this out awhile ago just to see if it would work.

Tailhook Mod 1 on a Phase 5 tube with LAW folder.  LOP stays at roughly 11.3"s, so all 3 three available demerit points are used up with the folder (2) and LOP (1) combo IF you use a brace.




I have 4 pistols set up with 3 (technically 4) different braces that I've testing different combos on.  All of them have an 11.3" LOP (two have LAW folders).  I will say that the 10" LOP SUCKS.  Can't imagine going shorter unless you have a brace that adds LOP.

One could incur an additional point for the 12.5"  LOP = (2 pts.) if using the Strike Ind. brace vs. the Shock Wave.  NOTE:  The set screw position on the Strike mod. is approx 1" froward of the Shock Wave mod.Strike Ind. will have to remove the QD socket since it has what the ATF calls stock like features and we are not allowed to modify any brace from it's manufactured form.


The red area ( 1" ) is for the mythical 5 & 7/16th"  tube that would allow for a 12.5" barrel and a larger buffer weight with enough room inside to have a dead blow hammer feature (weights moving forward hammer upon lock up) to help mitigate bolt bounce.  With a 5.45" tube measured from the end plate one can have 13.5"LOP and a 12.5" barrel as they are willing to  give up everything else in SEC III having to use only a red dot.

Someone double check my logic here

I have an SBA-3 on one of my pistols and do not care for any position other than max extension which is about 12.5".  I have a clamp on brace coming to test out on a standard round pistol buffer just for the hell of it.  If a shorter tube would allow the brace to cantilever far enough to reach near that 12.5" mark I might build one out with a longer barrel, but my 10.5" barreled upper is 100% reliable as is so no current worries about that.  Being I shoot strictly on private land I couldn't give 2 shits about the AFT's proposal, but for to try and find ways around it for the masses.  

Strike, works fine both for .223 10.5" and let's me get by 'legally' with my 6.5 Grendel 12".

On day 38 waiting for the ATF to approve my already constitutional SBR...

Strike worked fine for me on 10.5" 5.56 and 8" Blackout.

Tried it then took it off and stashed it in case needed...  later....

I would think that it if it is over 26" it would still be a "firearm" if they deem it isn't a pistol.

These new proposed rules are designed to be confusing and impossible to comply with