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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:04:48 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: This is not an 80% lower. Doesn't a complete lower need some sort of identification? Yes, SN is required of manufacturer. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:06:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Any markings at all on the lower? A pic or two might help.
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:08:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Is that why the company doesn't exist anymore?
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:14:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that why the company doesn't exist anymore? Thought the same actually. 
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:30:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Which company?
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:37:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Is there a rollmark of any kind?
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:37:52 AM EDT
[#7]
Did you fill out a 4473 for this lower? Can we see some pictures?
I'm wondering if you bought an 80% lower and are going to be asking where the FCG fits next. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:41:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: I am new to this site, so hopefully this is not a question that has been worn out. I did do a search before posting and found no results. A few years ago I started thinking about building and AR. I had a friend that built a few, so I started slowly acquiring parts. I bought a lower receiver from a local company that does not exist anymore. I now have a few parts and pulled things out to start building the lower and I looked for a serial number and could not find one. This is not an 80% lower. Doesn't a complete lower need some sort of identification? Even a stripped lower is required to have a serial number. Did you fill out paperwork at the time of purchase? |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:47:10 AM EDT
[#9]
I would look in the odds places they are located sometimes. like the bottom inside edge of the mag well, on the front outside of the mag well below the front pivot pin ears, or on the outside part of the lower where the trigger comes out of the bottom of the lower.
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:49:43 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you fill out a 4473 for this lower? Can we see some pictures? I'm wondering if you bought an 80% lower and are going to be asking where the FCG fits next. This - 4473? |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 8:34:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you fill out a 4473 for this lower? Can we see some pictures? I'm wondering if you bought an 80% lower and are going to be asking where the FCG fits next. I thought that, or maybe he purchased an 80% someone else finished, not knowing it's a no-no? |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 8:37:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Why do people post a question, then bail?
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Posted: 2/10/2021 8:47:16 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 2/10/2021 9:25:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do people post a question, then bail? I'm guessing cause it was either A: The FCG pocket wasn't milled out yet & he was embarrassed, or B: He bought a finished 80% lower from a "buddy" & found out that's illegal. Of course there could be option C: He just didn't look hard enough & realized it does have a SN, maybe not where he thought it should be though. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 9:32:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do people post a question, then bail? Join date post count |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 9:56:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought that, or maybe he purchased an 80% someone else finished, not knowing it's a no-no? Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought that, or maybe he purchased an 80% someone else finished, not knowing it's a no-no? It's really just fine. Well within the law so long as he who machined it, didn't do so with the intention of selling. Quoted: I'm guessing cause it was either A: The FCG pocket wasn't milled out yet & he was embarrassed, or B: He bought a finished 80% lower from a "buddy" & found out that's illegal. Of course there could be option C: He just didn't look hard enough & realized it does have a SN, maybe not where he thought it should be though. Same knock for stating the same wrong info 2x. Not even a "gray area" An action is either legal or illegal, which this one is legal. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:03:21 PM EDT
[#17]
I did not mean to bail. Building this AR is just a hobby that I've been contemplating for years, and it competes with lots of other things for my time.
Some of these comments have been very helpful and I went over the lower with a fine tooth comb and a flashlight and I did find (what I assume to be) the serial number. And it does have the name of the gun shop engraved in it, so I guess with this (very short) number and the name of the gun shop it is traceable. I did fill out the transfer paperwork when I bought it, but I don't have a copy (I have lots of firearms and didn't keep a copy of any of them, maybe I should). Thanks for the help. I will be in the background reading this site, so keep the discussions going. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:06:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did not mean to bail. Building this AR is just a hobby that I've been contemplating for years, and it competes with lots of other things for my time. Some of these comments have been very helpful and I went over the lower with a fine tooth comb and a flashlight and I did find (what I assume to be) the serial number. And it does have the name of the gun shop engraved in it, so I guess with this (very short) number and the name of the gun shop it is traceable. I did fill out the transfer paperwork when I bought it, but I don't have a copy (I have lots of firearms and didn't keep a copy of any of them, maybe I should). Thanks for the help. I will be in the background reading this site, so keep the discussions going. I've never gotten a copy of the 4473 on any gun I've bought. Some might have the SN on the rcpt, but I really don't recall ever seeing one with it & certainly didn't keep it. Unless you live in one of the states with some strange gun laws, I wouldn't worry about having anything with the SN on it unless you plan on insuring it. |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 10:53:57 AM EDT
[#19]
Or recovering it in case it is stolen. If you cannot prove it is yours, you have zero chance that the police will return it to you. While the chances are slim and none of getting any of your guns back, without the serial number it is none. I had a bunch of firearms stolen when I was a young man and of the 19 that were stolen, I only got one back, but I would not have gotten it back if I had not, or rather my father, had not recorded the serial numbers.
All you need is make, model, caliber, and serial number so it's not like you need a lot of pictures or official documents. Just record it in a file on your computer and print out a hard copy every now and then. And even if you don't insure your firearms individually with a rider, your homeowners usually covers a small amount, a couple of thousand bucks more or less, so at least you'd get that back, unless of course you didn't keep any record of the firearms you have, then the insurance company will laugh all the way to the bank with YOUR money. NO PAYOUT FOR YOU! |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 2:17:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, SN is required of manufacturer. True, if it was a real licensed manufacturer. Cannot be a US manufacturer w/o a license. In-state private sale (or gift) of a 80% that was made by an individual, does not need a SN. Straw-man 80's (or anything) will likely end badly. If the 1st maker was a real FFL licensed manufacturer, then the item should of had all the required markings that a FFL licensed manufacturer is required to do. It would have also gone via 4473. I see some are suggesting to look for a SN, but if it was a real licensed manufacturer who made it, it would have more than just a SN. OP, did the company you got it from claim to be a dealer, importer, or manufacturer? Well OP, should have never posted here to start with. You could of had an 80 and all would have been ok. Now that you have given details, you are in a sinking boat. Did you fill out a 4473? Even with a good 4473 I am not sure what the ATF would do with that lower, they'd probably just take it from you. If there is no 4473, then I would perhaps surrender that lower to an ATF office, and I am sure they will have lots of questions. Or, keep it quietly and understand the consequences of having such. Are you OP sure it wasn't an 80 that someone had done, and they then decided to sell it to you? |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 3:22:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True, if it was a real licensed manufacturer. Cannot be a US manufacturer w/o a license. In-state private sale (or gift) of a 80% that was made by an individual, does not need a SN. Straw-man 80's (or anything) will likely end badly. If the 1st maker was a real FFL licensed manufacturer, then the item should of had all the required markings that a FFL licensed manufacturer is required to do. It would have also gone via 4473. I see some are suggesting to look for a SN, but if it was a real licensed manufacturer who made it, it would have more than just a SN. OP, did the company you got it from claim to be a dealer, importer, or manufacturer? Well OP, should have never posted here to start with. You could of had an 80 and all would have been ok. Now that you have given details, you are in a sinking boat. Did you fill out a 4473? Even with a good 4473 I am not sure what the ATF would do with that lower, they'd probably just take it from you. If there is no 4473, then I would perhaps surrender that lower to an ATF office, and I am sure they will have lots of questions. Or, keep it quietly and understand the consequences of having such. Are you OP sure it wasn't an 80 that someone had done, and they then decided to sell it to you? OP already located the SN/Mfgr info. |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 3:34:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: I am new to this site, so hopefully this is not a question that has been worn out. I did do a search before posting and found no results. Is that you, Beto? 
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Posted: 2/11/2021 3:43:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP already located the SN/Mfgr info. Found it after going over it with fine tooth comb & flashlight? Min depth and sizing would be pretty hard to miss w/o a comb & flashlight.  My guess, if you can't easily find the markings then the markings are probably not legit (not to required min specs). Isn't that the context of the ATF words, to easily identify the markings 
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Posted: 2/11/2021 4:26:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Found it after going over it with fine tooth comb & flashlight? Min depth and sizing would be pretty hard to miss w/o a comb & flashlight. My guess, if you can't easily find the markings then the markings are probably not legit (not to required min specs). Isn't that the context of the ATF words, to easily identify the markings W/O pics who knows what OP has and I'm not guessing as to size/depth/location. That shit falls on the mfgr. |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 5:58:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: W/O pics who knows what OP has and I'm not guessing as to size/depth/location. That shit falls on the mfgr. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Found it after going over it with fine tooth comb & flashlight? Min depth and sizing would be pretty hard to miss w/o a comb & flashlight. My guess, if you can't easily find the markings then the markings are probably not legit (not to required min specs). Isn't that the context of the ATF words, to easily identify the markings W/O pics who knows what OP has and I'm not guessing as to size/depth/location. That shit falls on the mfgr. OP should be fine either way. I've never heard of the anyone worrying about markings once it goes to an end user. Hell, when the ATF decided that the polymer 80 "80%" lowers were actually complete, they didn't get them back from people that had them, and those had NO serial numbers. |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 6:30:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree this falls on the manufacturer if the markings don't meet the requirements (and we have to keep in mind the ATF might have given a marking variance too). You can put all of the required markings on the edge of the mag well or under the trigger guard if you have short enough mfg name/town name, so it could well be OK. OP should be fine either way. I've never heard of the anyone worrying about markings once it goes to an end user. Hell, when the ATF decided that the polymer 80 "80%" lowers were actually complete, they didn't get them back from people that had them, and those had NO serial numbers. Well, sure, the markings may be there, but certainly if the markings are there one would not need a comb & flashlight to see it, was my point. And yes, any markings snafu done by manufacturer is on them, but that does not mean ATF would not hang onto an item if the markings they find are not proper. What ATF doc declared an 80% a 80+%? None that I'm aware of. |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 7:03:59 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What ATF doc declared an 80% a 80+%? None that I'm aware of. Our "new" America. Federal statute (18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)) defines "firearm" in part as, "(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon?." In the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), “firearm frame or receiver” is further defined as “That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.” According to reports, BATFE raided Polymer80 due to its sale of what the company calls its "Buy Build Shoot" kits. These kits contain a Polymer80 unfinished pistol frame along with other parts necessary to complete a pistol. Despite its previous acknowledgement that the unfinished frame is not a firearm, BATFE has taken the position that when the unfinished frame is packaged with other non-firearm parts the entire package becomes a "firearm" for the purposes of federal law. Of further concern is that BATFE seized customer records from Polymer80 during the raid and that the agency had previously obtained some customer records from third-party shipping service Stamps.com?. Since the raid, there have been reports of BATFE confronting Polymer80 customers about their purchases. |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 7:21:31 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our "new" America. Federal statute (18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)) defines "firearm" in part as, "(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon?." In the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), “firearm frame or receiver” is further defined as “That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.” According to reports, BATFE raided Polymer80 due to its sale of what the company calls its "Buy Build Shoot" kits. These kits contain a Polymer80 unfinished pistol frame along with other parts necessary to complete a pistol. Despite its previous acknowledgement that the unfinished frame is not a firearm, BATFE has taken the position that when the unfinished frame is packaged with other non-firearm parts the entire package becomes a "firearm" for the purposes of federal law. Of further concern is that BATFE seized customer records from Polymer80 during the raid and that the agency had previously obtained some customer records from third-party shipping service Stamps.com?. Since the raid, there have been reports of BATFE confronting Polymer80 customers about their purchases. Yes, which all they need to do is not package all the items into a single SKU (aka "kit"). It's just more of the same, ATF discretionary interpretation BS. And btw, the CFR part (B) does not describe an 80% because an 80% (as an 80% object) provides no housing for hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism. Hence why an 80% is not a firearm. As for the CFR part (A). An 80% is not readily converted into a thing as described by part (B). Special tools and some human skills are required, in other words a monkey cannot do it. I will also argue that a block of plastic or aluminum is by nature NOT A WEAPON. An object only becomes a "weapon" when used as a weapon. There is no noun of "weapon". Federal word smithing is as bad as Elon Musk trying to colonize Mars. |
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Posted: 2/11/2021 7:24:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal word smithing is as bad as Elon Musk trying to colonize Mars. There are no bounds to their political fuckery. |
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