I noticed S&W and Springfield have ARs that I guess are a step above economy models. Below are a couple that go for around $950.

In this price range, is the S&W or Springfield better for quality, reliability, and durability?


https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/modern-sporting-rifles/smith-wesson-mp-15-volunteer-xv-16in-556mm-nato-black-semi-automatic-modern-sporting-rifle-301-rounds/p/1737242#smw_turnto_reviews_title

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/modern-sporting-rifles/springfield-armory-saint-ar15-flip-up-front-556mm-nato-16in-black-semi-automatic-modern-sporting-rifle-301-rounds/p/1620114

I'd say they're mighty similar.  For the same $$ the Springfield comes with sights.  I'd also submit a Colt 6920 Trooper (probably found for <$1000 bucks with some looking):

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1026098135?pid=255120

Those are still hobby grade rifles with cheap nitride barrels... just with some shiny garbage installed that might be appealing to the McNugget crowd- like unique-looking molded-plastic handguards.

They might be gone now, a few months ago you could have spent half that much to a little less (depending on condition, up to NIB) for a fully legit VA State Police SIG M400- and those are serious weapons with OTB features like extractor support lugs and drain holes, plus some other cool and unique features.

I purchased 3 of them.

FN

https://gunzonedeals.com/product/fn-36-100740-fn15-guardian-556-1x30-blk

IWI

https://www.bereli.com/iwi-zion-z-15-semi-automatic-ar-223-chamber-16-barrel-black-15-free-float-handguard-bcm-pistol-grip-and-b5-stock-30rd-1-pmag/

PSA Sabre

https://palmettostatearmory.com/sabre/ar-15/mil-spec/complete-guns.html

Get a Colt OEM1 or OEM2 and add your own furniture.

^this, I'll add Colt 6920 to that as well

They may be cheap, but the three M&P Sport II's I own (bought one each for my teenage sons a couple of years ago and one for myself) have been more accurate than any of the Colt/BCM/LMT/DD rifles I own or been issued at work, by a noticeable margin. I don't consider them "duty grade", but I wish my other AR's had cheap-barrel accuracy.

Is the new FN Guardian as reliable and durable as their more expensive ARs, except for the barrel?

@m6z

@kwb377

Other than the bolt carrier groups and hand guard/buttstock, how are the ones listed better than the M&P?

No experience with any of those rifles, just passing along the info.  PSA stuff has always been good for me.  I've always assembled my own though.

Nitride is not cheaping out.  In another thread I pointed out that even high end benchrest barrel makers like Rock Creek are nitriding their very expensive competition barrels.  Criterion is nitriding some barrels.  Many other companies.  I have an older CMMG 16" nitrided barrel that shoots just outside MOA, about 1.1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with decent ammo.

Some S&W models came with 5R 1:8 twist.  Some have had top tier rails.  Some with very good two stage triggers.  One of the smoothest USGI spec trigger's I've ever shot came out of an S&W M&P 15 (not a Sport).  Can't generalize about either company.

I do agree that the gas block and forestock on that particular S&W is not what I would want, but that can be remedied with a low pro block and a proper rail.  It does have a nice 1:8 5R barrel that probably shoits lights out with match ammo.  The B5 stock and grip are neither "shiny" nor "McNugget crowd" items.

However, OP should consider the "regular" version of that same model which has a full A2 tower front sight and MBUS rear sight, unless he plans to scope it.  They are the same priice.

HK MR556 has a nitride barrel it has been a complaint of 416 cloners.  Common issue with some elitist or snobby users they never hesitate to shit on other peoples equipment or choice to reinforce their choice was better.

It's a cheap finish for cheap barrels.

In the other thread, somebody (perhaps you?) pointed out that Criterion offers a Nitride barrel... but who in the world is shelling out for Criterion and then saving money on chrome?

In the ~$1K area you do a lot better than S&W and Springfield... and yes, the vast majority of their catalogs are hobby grade BS.

IF they have a serious offering between them, neither of these rifles are "it."

I guess a lot of people out there think those S&W and Springfield ARs are on the level of Colt.

Either would be an ok entry level rifle, I have one of the M&P models and it’s ok, I use it to shoot my steel ammo.

The Saint may come with sights but the front sight is plastic and mounted to a gas block, so it will melt eventually.

Neither are anything special., just OK, but I am no fan of Springfield after their sell-out move.

In the price range you posted or lower you could get a premium PSA upper and lower of your choice and have a better rifle for less money.

...and if PSA Free-Dumb equals S&W and SA => everything is just as good as a basic LE6920 that Walmart used to sell for $750.

I'm a factualist when it comes to Nitride barrels, plastic handguards, basic FCGs, and MBUS.

On the barrels I got a guy good though- "He said, yeah... we know what you think about Nitride barrels, KalashniKEV..." and I told him "NO! I changed my mind when I saw the big order SOCOM just placed with BA of all people. I wonder if Big Army will follow suit and everyone will have a Nitride barrel?

This dude literally ejaculated, in his shorts, on-the-spot. He said, "CAN YOU SEND ME THAT!!??????"

And I couldn't keep it going any longer, and just busted out laughing. You saw his whole face turn, and he stormed off cursing.

TL;DR - Nitride is a cheap finish for cheap barrels.

Walking things back on topic- I agree that a PSA Premium, Expo Combat Series, Colt OEM, FN Guardian, etc... etc... would shoot circles around either of these with better quality and longevity for less money.

@Kalashnikev101

Referring the bolded parts above:

I didn't know a person could get a Colt LE6920 for $750 in the past. How long ago was that? I wonder if they were the same 6920s other stores got. A part of me wonders if Walmart received factory seconds or ones a little different from the  regular one.

About the other models above, the S&W barrel with the 1:8 twist and 5R rifling may be more accurate than all of them. A magazine did a review of the FN Guardian. It only managed 2" groups at 100 yards with match grade ammo.

Colt doesn't run multiple lines for their M4s and commercial guns- and an LE6921 is an M4 built on the commercial semi auto receiver. The Walmart LE6920s came straight from the same place that all the others do- and perform exactly the same as any other LE6920.

I saw them at $750 many times. Apparently they were also at $700 on sale in 2015 by a post on a different forum, and guys posting $688 and "$500 in Jennings, LA." I believe I paid $750 for my SDN Mexico DF Colt 6920 around that time.

"Only" 2 inch groups at 100m, you say??

...but also that a junk barrel S&W "might be more accurate?"

Does that imply that the economy Nitride barrel will beat 2 inches at 100M??

HOW?

...and at 1:8 what if you just feed it a longer bullet like a 77gr SMK, head to head, with a regular 1:7 M4 barrel?

I guess no Walmarts carry ARs anymore. I'm not even sure if they carry rifles anymore. I think the ones near me don't.

I don't think the S&W 1:8 5R barrel is junk, though it is 4140 rather than 4150 steel. It may beat 2" at 100M with good ammo. Not sure.

IIRC, a 1:8 barrel will stabilize up to 77gr bullets well. And it's probably better than 1:7 barrels for 55gr bullets.

4140 vs 4150 is not as big a deal as many people make it out to be.  Yes a 4140 barrel will wear out sooner but we are not talking about one can do 20K more rounds and whether nitriding has a profound effect on the life no one has really run the numbers.  Heat is still the killer of barrels so people who mag dump, high cadence of fire, or full auto will wear a barrel out faster than a guy who plinks on a bench of who runs a 30 round mag at a moderate pace.  Back to back mag runs will raise the heat but the average shooter does not put a barrel through the punishment of sustained fire of hundreds of rounds.  The same can be said for a CMV versus stainless barrel the stainless is going to wear out faster.  My thoughts honestly if you can burn out a barrel you can afford ammo so in theory you should be able to afford a new barrel.  So when you burn out a barrel swap it out with something nicer like a chrome line hammer forged if barrel life is the deciding factor.
A lot of people get hung up on barrel twist as well 1/8 and 1/7 are outstanding choices even 1/9 is ok for most shooters who shoot nothing more than 55gr ammo.

I would have guessed 1/9 is better than 1/8 or 1/7 if a person shoots nothing but 55gr ammo.

I'll tell Stanley lighting that the Nitride they require for their $250K injection mold for Honda headlights is going cheap.

I do not care to venture down that path there has been data that did show that 55gr was better out of a 1/9 but how does that compare to 1/8 and 1/7 in a high quality barrel.  Really need more data to make that claim but it is plausible/possible but 1/7 is so common now and 1/9 is less common.  I would not lose my mind if I had a barrel that was a 1/9 because I do shoot a lot of 55gr and tend to shoot 69-77gr in rifles that are more tailored to accuracy not just a range plinker.  It all comes down to what the end user's goals and uses are... If they are all about full auto, magdumps, and high rates of fire a chrome lined hammer forged barrel would be best but if they go to the range and sit at a bench and crank off 30 rounds over 10 minutes just for fun whatever they can afford might be best, and so on.

Tell Stan, Dan, Fran, and the whole Honda driving crew.

Nitride is a cheap finish for cheap barrels.

Look at molon's review of the triarc track. I like chrome lined barrels,  but look at his results and tell me that's a "cheap barrel". I can yell you theyre neither cheap or easy to come by. I know. I have one. Hell, just Google it and look at how much shit comes up of people trying to find one. Nitride is AN option. Not THE option, but it doesn't make it junk just because BA and faxon use it. Hell, dodge makes chrome bumpers, but we all know that's the only piece of the truck likely to be left in 20 years
Edited for lack of typing a ability

I believe it was a famous dictator who said "if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it."  Keep saying that nitriding is cheap and for cheap barrels.  That does not make it so.  Not saying you are lying, merely biased and it shows.

Nitride has been proven to have distinct advantages over hard chrome for many purposes that also apply to barrels.

1.  It is harder than hard chrome.
2.  It is in the order of 10x more salt water corrosion resistant.
3.  It is a surface hardening of the base metal and not a plating - thus it does not change the barrel dimensions.  Chrome lined barrels have to be bored oversize to allow for the plating.  If the plating is not applied extremely evenly, it can adversely affect accuracy,  Nitride preserves the pristine rifling.
4.  Nitride barrels are typically treated both inside and out.  Nitride is superior in every respect to parkerizing to protect the outside of the barrel.
5.  You will never see a chrome lined barrel on the line at a seriously competitive benchrest or long range precision rifle event.  Certainly not among the top competitors.  Nitride of those 416 barrels is becoming a thing.

That said, chrome-lining clearly has one benefit:  it resists the high throat heat of machine gun, full auto and other high rate of fire use better.

But, how many of us ever use an AR15 that way?  Geez that Nevada gun range experience reports no significant difference in barrel life comparing chrome-lined and nitride AR barrels.

I am being objective.  I have many barrels - chrome lined, nitride and 416.  I even have a one-off black chromed barrel on a Sako hunting rifle that is plated black chrome inside and out!  I have no bias.

I am saying that objective data supports the conclusion that nitrided AR15 semi-auto barrels are an excellent choice and have clear benefits over chrome-lined for all but very high rate of fire use.

Yes, and those nitrided main and rod bearing journals on high rpm racing engines are going cheap!

I don’t have a problem with chrome lined nor nitride barrels, I have a problem with crappy barrels, and the only ones I can say that I’ve had that didn’t live up to expectation were two different Ballistic Advantage barrels, neither could shoot under 4 MOA.

I’ve had, or have, several barrels of both types of finishes that are absolute tack drivers, zero complaints.

The S&W M&P 15 that I have is a nitride 1/9 barrel, shoots the steel ammo I have very well, and some day if the barrel gets worn out then I can get a better one, no biggie.

1) Already covered in the other Nitride thread- by me, actually... but it's impossible to compare the two head to head because there is only one high quality nitride barrel available from Criterion.

The "lie" is that Chrome is not accurate. Look up Molon's review of the Colt SOCOM profile barrel.

A high quality chrome barrel is extremely accurate and ALSO long-lasting and durable.

That's why it's the standard... that's why there are lots of good options... that's why it's what you see in professional use.

2) This is worthy of ridicule- can we put this fallacy to bed forever, please?

"YOU DON'T NEED (Insert Here), WHATTYRE YOU IN SEEEEL TEEEEM SIX??"

A durable/ non-crackerjack optic, Carpenter 158 Bolts, not-a-basic-FCG, 1:7 twist, free float handguards, BUIS, ammunition that isn't loaded with Rooskie floor sweepings... and now normal, CL barrels?

Plenty of folks who don't run full auto will enjoy the benefit of the superior accuracy (yup) and durability of a quality CL barrel over the economy nitride options (or the Criterion, or whatever Instagram company) available... and they will experience and recognize the benefit over a normal timeline/ lifecycle of ownership for an average shooter.

@WrenchGuy

IIRC, S&W owns the barrel company that makes barrels for the M&P 15. Thompson Compass or something like that.

Does S&W or Thompson sell the barrel used on the M&P 15 if a person wants to replace theirs?

How much do their replacement barrels cost?

If they sell them you can replace yours with the 1/8 5R barrel they use on the more expensive S&W ARs.

I think nitride is just fine for most people. I also see how it gets a bad name, since most cheap barrels are only available with nitride, while nicer barrels may have other options. But nitride doesn’t automatically make a barrel shitty.

With that said, I think we should completely disregard Henderson’s experience with barrel life. They define useful barrel life as how long it takes to keyhole at 25yds. That has absolutely no bearing on how most of us, and the US .mil would define barrel life. The definition we should use is “until loss of useful accuracy for our purpose and/or loss of x% velocity”.

And which one does better in that metric depends on use and purpose, and most users won’t be able to differentiate.

I don’t have a clue if they make any replacement barrels available for sale, or if I could get one, but there are plenty of others that would completely satisfy the need when the time comes.

Likely I would grab another lightweight FN CHF barrel and call it good.

S&W had contracted with T/C to produce rifle barrels.  T/C made the first S&W M&P 15 barrels.  Then, around 2010 they outright acquired T/C and operated it as a subsidiary.  It eventually ceased operating T/C as a separate company, and uses it only as an in-house barrel factory.

The barrels are very accurate, rivaling match grade barrels.  The barrel on the S&W rifle referenced by op is one of those 5R rifled 1:8 twist barrels.

For a rifle barrel, for most purposes, chrome lines is superior to nitride. It does last longer, it resists heat better.

That said, most of my ARs have nitride barrels, they serve my purpose. If I was a LEO, I would prefer a rifle with a chromed bore and chamber. Probably. But I wouldn't feel unarmed with one of my PSA carbines with a nitride barrel.

Actually Stag made most of the first M&P15s, Smith and Wesson then purchased Thompson Center and started making everything in-house.

Agreed, and the OP should be able to put together something with a chrome lined barrel as well as chrome lined bolt carrier / gas key for his $950 price point or maybe even a little less.

Here's one that I think is a better value for the same price point

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-sabre-forged-16-5-56-fn-chf-cl-15-knurled-slant-rail-sabre-furniture-rifle.html

When did they start making them in house?

I never read anything about Stag ARs. I have no idea how good or bad they are.