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Posted: 6/20/2018 2:14:37 PM EDT
[#1]
I stack Russian SP, 62 and 55gr deep. YOu can get it cheaper than brass cassed 55gr ammo. It's basically the only ammo I use to train with and what I keep in nearly every ready mag I've got. Since I train with it I know how well it will run in my weapons and I have no doubts it'll serve just fine. I'm actually the one who sent BF the Silver and Brown bear he tested. Was neat seeing it fired into Gel. I've shot the 62grain stuff out to 650 yards on a 36inch gong and gotten hits. Not every hit but 3 out of 5 typically. Where I live the only place you can shoot that far is on a range setup for it so I'm not worried about reaching out past 200 or so yards. Even 100 yard shot would be stretching it here so outright accuracy isn't nearly as much of a concern for me as if I was doing longer range work.
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Posted: 6/20/2018 2:30:57 PM EDT
[#2]
1. why do you need several thousand SD rounds?
2. If I was stocking for SD, I would consider reliability to be the #1 priority, with effects second No I would not use it because there are better options |
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Posted: 6/20/2018 2:40:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1. why do you need several thousand SD rounds? 2. If I was stocking for SD, I would consider reliability to be the #1 priority, with effects second No I would not use it because there are better options 2. yep, understood...i have had near 100% reliability with the regular old Wolf steel case 55g/62gr I use for range time. I think I am looking for input on reliability, terminal effects, warnings, etc. Could Russian SP really the sweet spot for reliability, lethality, cost? thanks! |
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Posted: 6/20/2018 9:12:21 PM EDT
[#4]
I've also been looking for the sweet spot as far as HD ammo is concerned. The sweet spot I've settled on is Frontier 62 grain SP (spire point) in 5.56. Here's why. My research has led me to conclude that the Frontier 62 grain SP, is the same bullet that Hornady uses on their TAP ammo. They basically advertise it as a barrier-blind bullet. The Frontier ammo is manufactured at Lake City, the same place the Federal 5.56 FBIT3/SBCT3 is manufactured at, which gets rave reviews. So is the only difference between the Frontier and the Federal the bullet? From what I can find, the Frontier does not have a bonded bullet like the Federal. The other is the price. I've gotten the Frontier for .40 cents a round including shipping. The Federal is at least twice that, not including shipping. The Frontier is brass cased, 5.56 made in America at .40 cents a round vs the .223 steel case Russian 55 SP at .30 cents a round. To me it's worth the extra .10 cents a round.
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Posted: 6/20/2018 9:24:00 PM EDT
[#5]
I think honestly there's a rationale for stocking it deep. It's cheap.
I will always have a stash of premium grade ammo and I'm unlikely to need that much of a stash. But the steel cased stuff is cheap enough that it makes enough sense to use it as your big stash/practice ammo. |
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Posted: 6/20/2018 9:29:28 PM EDT
[#6]
I didn't read the train wreck of a first post, but yes, some of the com block SP is very good.
I keep a stash of Brown Bear 62 grain SP. It is good ammo, I get good enough accuracy that I'll take it hunting. It turns a coyote into a dead coyote, in a hurry. Wolf Gold is a fine XM193 offering IMHO. There are lots of very fine offerings and FMJ or OTM offerings can be very good AP rounds, along with the specialized things like MK318 Mod0, TAP, Gold Dot, Fusion and others. Find what works well for you, gets the reliability for you, and gets the terminal effects you want. |
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Posted: 6/20/2018 9:41:38 PM EDT
[#7]
For me its not the ballistics that make steel a no go its the risk of stuck cases needing a rod. Had it happen with all brands across BCM, FN etc barrels. Just not worth it to me.
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Posted: 6/20/2018 10:51:57 PM EDT
[#8]
You can get Fusion or Gold Dots for 60-70 cpr if you look around. For HD/SHTF, why mess with steel cased Russian ammo?
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Posted: 6/21/2018 12:27:10 AM EDT
[#9]
IMHO....
For training... fine, use it. If the SHTF did happen... and one round of the "maybe" good enough cheap SP ammo cost you a injury or worse... you would wish you had bought better, more thoroughly proven ammo. Again... I get the whole concept... but am arguing against the actual , possible in the field results. How much would you actually save dollar wise ? And is your keister worth that dollar amount ? I would trust this far more... https://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/500-round-case-556-nato-62-grain-spirepoint-soft-point-hornady-frontier-ammo- |
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Posted: 6/21/2018 9:57:43 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMHO.... For training... fine, use it. If the SHTF did happen... and one round of the "maybe" good enough cheap SP ammo cost you a injury or worse... you would wish you had bought better, more thoroughly proven ammo. Again... I get the whole concept... but am arguing against the actual , possible in the field results. How much would you actually save dollar wise ? And is your keister worth that dollar amount ? I would trust this far more... https://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/500-round-case-556-nato-62-grain-spirepoint-soft-point-hornady-frontier-ammo- |
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Posted: 6/21/2018 10:07:10 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can get Fusion or Gold Dots for 60-70 cpr if you look around. For HD/SHTF, why mess with steel cased Russian ammo? If wolf can make good brass cases, they can make good steel cased. If you are shooting at less than 100m, I doubt the target will notice any difference. You arent going to be reloading in shtf, and for HD steel cased doesnt make sense because a HD loadout of "the good stuff" is still cheap. Steel cased Russian ammo is best for stockpiling. It works. It doubles as blasting ammo. If you are willing to "risk your keister" on the range where you use a much higher % of your ammo (and ostensibly have the highest risk of a KB due to ammo).....then using it in shtf is probably no big deal. The only negative thing I see with steel cased is that it tends to be loaded a bit slower than comparable military loadings. I stock both. If I manage to run into my steel cased stash in SHTF, I've done something horribly wrong. 5k of m193, 1k of m855 is a lot of ammo to go through in those scenarios. At the end of the day, the steel cased stuff is likely to be used as a trade commodity, but if that's what I had to defend myself, it beats a point stick and harsh language. |
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Posted: 6/21/2018 10:47:46 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For me its not the ballistics that make steel a no go its the risk of stuck cases needing a rod. Had it happen with all brands across BCM, FN etc barrels. Just not worth it to me. If you're talking 60 to 70 cents a round for the "good stuff" you're talking a difference in a 1000 round case of ammo big enough to buy 2 AR barrels with some money left over |
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Posted: 6/21/2018 11:01:48 AM EDT
[#13]
The only time I've had stuck cases was after shooting steel cased ammo and letting the gun sit for days without cleaning the chamber. I found that if I do a quick clean with a chamber mop and some solvent the fouling is still soft and comes right out. But I still don't want steel case ammo for anything other than recreational shooting...mainly because if you do shoot the stuff and can't clean the chamber in the field for whatever reason, you may very well then be screwed the next time you do have to pull the trigger.
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Posted: 6/21/2018 1:17:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only time I've had stuck cases was after shooting steel cased ammo and letting the gun sit for days without cleaning the chamber. I found that if I do a quick clean with a chamber mop and some solvent the fouling is still soft and comes right out. But I still don't want steel case ammo for anything other than recreational shooting...mainly because if you do shoot the stuff and can't clean the chamber in the field for whatever reason, you may very well then be screwed the next time you do have to pull the trigger. 
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Posted: 6/21/2018 4:37:48 PM EDT
[#15]
This has degenerated into a steel cased ammo debate. OP is asking a specific question about HD/SHTF ammo. Personally, I would be fine with M193 before I bet my life on steel cased Russian ammo. It may have decent terminal performance, but how is it on barriers? Spend the money and get the 75 gr gold dots for 60 cpr.
ETA https://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammo-sale/223-556mm-ammo |
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Posted: 6/22/2018 9:51:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This has degenerated into a steel cased ammo debate. OP is asking a specific question about HD/SHTF ammo. Personally, I would be fine with M193 before I bet my life on steel cased Russian ammo. It may have decent terminal performance, but how is it on barriers? Spend the money and get the 75 gr gold dots for 60 cpr. ETA https://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammo-sale/223-556mm-ammo |
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Posted: 6/22/2018 6:42:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
good point. SP's and glass? drywall? I have mostly seen gel tests only. anyone have any expertise there? there has to be a reason everyone is not using SP's for HD/SD, even non-combloc ammo. thanks all https://youtu.be/FSQiM67Yq54 |
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Posted: 6/22/2018 10:34:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
good point. SP's and glass? drywall? I have mostly seen gel tests only. anyone have any expertise there? there has to be a reason everyone is not using SP's for HD/SD, even non-combloc ammo. thanks all |
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Posted: 6/23/2018 8:01:18 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thanks, this is great input. do you have any direct experience with that ammo? I was not aware of it, thanks! And I also based a lot of my answer on your specific question. IE ... you may not have time to clean your weapon... and Wolf Steel cased ( who is a distributor, not a manufacturer, so while the Taiwanese ammo is great brass cased, you aren't really sure which other Com-Bloc ammo company is making your ammo as cheap as possible to beat out the next Com-Bloc company for the Wolf bid ) typically is dirty running with its steel cased ammo. So you could have FTF / FTE, (IMHO that is just as bad as a kaboom ) if the firearm doesn't function properly because of the dirtier burning / as cheaply produced as possible ammo, when you need it , is what I meant ... or your suppressor gets gunked up faster then with brass cased.... We all have seen more then enough FTF / FTE issues with the dirtier running "Wolf" ... as well as other issues ... a stuck case at the wrong time doesn't sound good to me. Again... if this is intended for a SHTF environment I would prefer cleaner running ammo... you are not going to have time for feeding / extraction issues, or a thorough cleaning...or anything else as often as you'd like. Also if people want to use Steel Cased .. have at it. I am not knocking it that much... but it is slower, especially out of your shorter barrels. And that can mess up ballistics enough to have the bullet fail to function as desired. And its accuracy is rarely anything better then good enough. Shot placement counts as much as the bullets terminal performance. And I have to wonder why Uncle Sugar and the various other "Free World" countries haven't used steel cases yet... and have stuck with brass cases. ( Reliability comes to mind. ) We all know steel cases, especially in more straight taper cases, ( .223 / 5.56 and .308 ) require more extraction force... fired steel cases don't "release" from the chamber as quickly /easily as the more springy brass case. So your firearm is trying to rip the steel case out of the chamber.. Does any steel cased ammo manufacturer make 5.56 pressure ammo ? The taper on 7.62x39 is a huge aid in feeding and extraction for steel cases.. .223 doesn't have enough taper to take advantage of that. My main concern isn't a kaboom... it is reliable function.... and the , ultimately the bullet working as desired. So if you are comfortable with the function, accuracy and the bullet performance... have at it. But I sure as heck would make sure the firearm is cleaned more often then with brass cased ammo.... especially when the chips are down. Something your SHTF schedule might not have time for. Lol Personanlly I will stick with brass cased, more proven ammo... I want the odds in my favor. I prefer the ammo to be reasonably accurate, 2 MOA ish at least... something steel cased ammo isn't known for. (and yes there are exceptions ) .. that accuracy might make a difference. I am also a motor head... so.. I can't help thinking about this in context to the drag race / car/ motorcycle race of your life... you are against a racer as qualified as you are... he is using higher quality parts and higher quality fuel, greatly increasing his odds of no failure from said parts... you might win against him with your good enough parts and fuel, maybe not... but you sure as heck don't want your lesser quality fuel and parts to the reason you lost in the race of your life. If those parts let you down.. because you didn't spend more $ on them... the race is just lost. Not your Keister. So again... range time for steel cased for me. Where I have the time to fix a problem. |
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Posted: 6/23/2018 2:08:17 PM EDT
[#20]
I stashed away 1k or so Gold Dot 223 for shtf. I also too, love the idea of cheap steel ammo for shtf, but let's face it, you're not gonna go wild west with shootouts. That being said, I have almost 2k 75gr bthp by Tula from before the election when 23cpr was considered cheap, especially for 75gr HP steel ammo. You're gonna have to juggle the benefits of cheap vs quality. I've had just about flawless function with every steel ammo I've shot, so I would not mind stacking thousands of those soft points from SGAmmo. However, steel ammo in the end has a higher chance of malfunctioning. It's a risk YOU have to take. Is that a risk I'd be willing to take? Yes. My Tavor ate over 2k steel rounds with 0 malfunctions. My AR with echo trigger almost has the same round count with Wolf steel ammo.
In the end, here's my recommendation. BUY those soft points. But also have a reasonable amount of high quality, brass/nickel plated ammo such as gold dot SP's. At least a dozen or so magazines, depending on how many rifles you own/people you plan on arming. Already owning over 1k gold dot's for the "use this first" ammo, I'd rather have 2-3k extra steel softpoints that I may never have to use vs 1k extra Gold Dot SP's that I may never use. LuckyGunner's Steel vs Brass ammo torture test showed 9/10k and 15/10k steel rounds malfunction. That's with going full auto and being extra dirty, ect. Brass had 0. So pick your poison. Organic or non organic? 
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Posted: 6/23/2018 2:19:13 PM EDT
[#21]
and Wolf Steel cased ( who is a distributor, not a manufacturer, so while the Taiwanese ammo is great brass cased, you aren't really sure which other Com-Bloc ammo company is making your ammo as cheap as possible to beat out the next Com-Bloc company for the Wolf bid ) typically is dirty running with its steel cased ammo. |
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Posted: 6/24/2018 6:38:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If wolf can make good brass cases, they can make good steel cased. That said, some of the steel cased stuff is much, much better now than it was ten years ago. Quality can still vary widely even with the same brand, however; just went through a couple cases of 9mm that had half a dozen dud rounds, half a dozen out-of-spec rounds that would not chamber, and one backwards primer. |
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