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Posted: 1/4/2021 8:50:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2021 9:36:07 PM EST by Soberglitch]
I’m taking my first step into the heavier grain match ammo and unsure of which route to go.

Available options that I’ve seen so far are:
IWI 77 gr SMK, Nosler 77 gr and PMC 77 gr X-Tac match
PPU 75 gr
and Aussie Outback 69 gr SMK

Going to be ran through my 16in 1:7 Recce setup. Right now I’m limited to roughly 300 yards and just want to push the accuracy at that distance.
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 9:04:44 PM EST
Outback 69gr SMK is underpowered.

The hands down "best" heavy made is the 77gr TMK as loaded by Black Hills.

A few other companies load the 77TMK, like Creedmoor and Underwood but based on my chrono testing the BH offering is quite a bit hotter.
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 9:14:34 PM EST
I assume the Black Hills is going to be a tricky one to get nowadays. Is there anything that I listed that would be worth around $1 to $1.20 a round?
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 9:36:28 PM EST
I think most rounds are gonna be hard to find right now.

In normal times the BH 77TMK is $63/50. I can only imagine what it would cost right now if you could find it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 9:52:03 PM EST
SMKs tend to give the most consistent results. Hornadys tend to be more hit or miss, but when they work they work every bit as well as the SMK. I’ve always had better luck with 77’s, but that’s luck of the draw with individual barrels and lots have had better luck with 69’s. I find FGMM to be the most consistent loading, but BH is neck and neck and is generally loaded warmer (and comes in the cheaper blue box).
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 10:00:52 PM EST
Haven't shot any yet but bought some 77 GR SMK OTMs from Pine Valley Munitions recently for around $1/rd.
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 10:06:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2021 10:06:37 PM EST by Soberglitch]
Here and other threads it seems like the Black Hills 77 is king. I’m thinking I’ll just buy what I can of other ammo and use it sparingly until someone has some of the BH in stock.
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 10:11:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2021 10:12:08 PM EST by MS556]
If you can handload, the most accurate 77gr bullet for .223/5.56 is the Berger 77OTM.  I don't know if anyone loads it in a factory loading.
Link Posted: 1/4/2021 10:21:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2021 10:23:43 PM EST by Soberglitch]
I know my mechanics at work handload 6.5 Creedmoor and 300 Blackout but I’ll check if they can do some 223 for me. I’m not familiar with handloading though so I’m not sure of the cost effectiveness these days or if it’ll be worthwhile to me until I get comfortable with the new rifle.
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 8:17:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
I know my mechanics at work handload 6.5 Creedmoor and 300 Blackout but I’ll check if they can do some 223 for me. I’m not familiar with handloading though so I’m not sure of the cost effectiveness these days or if it’ll be worthwhile to me until I get comfortable with the new rifle.
View Quote

Most of the point of handloading isn’t as much loading by hand as much as it is the ability to tailor loads to your rifle. Testing various combinations of factors, etc. Having someone handload you ammo, without the knowledge gained from all that testing, isn’t going to get you much (if any) further than buying factory.
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 4:15:29 PM EST
I've found the 69gr Aussie ammo to shoot better than the recent runs of black hills 77gr. While it is loaded mild, with 300yards being your max distance you won't notice a difference. And is certainly cheaper and more available. Shoot the Aussie for paper and save the 77gr black hills for shooting people
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 4:34:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MfK:
I've found the 69gr Aussie ammo to shoot better than the recent runs of black hills 77gr. While it is loaded mild, with 300yards being your max distance you won't notice a difference. And is certainly cheaper and more available. Shoot the Aussie for paper and save the 77gr black hills for shooting people
View Quote

I bought a few hundred of the 69gr Aussie yesterday. The previous owner of the upper said that and Magtech 77gr SMK is what he put through it to get the best results.
Right now all the 77gr SMK seems so expensive and sparse but maybe I’ll have to just pick one and buy a case.
Link Posted: 1/6/2021 11:25:28 AM EST
There's only one way to find what will work best in YOUR rifle.

Testing.
Link Posted: 1/6/2021 12:03:47 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Pointman91:
There's only one way to find what will work best in YOUR rifle.

Testing.
View Quote

That’s what I was assuming. Just hoping in these times that I could get some advice on maybe which brands or loadings to avoid so I don’t waste my time or money with everything being so scarce and expensive.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 2:19:08 PM EST
I've had better luck with the 77 SMKs than the Aussie 69gr.   Midway has the IMI 77 SMKs in stock for $1.20/round.   Expensive, but at least its available.

Link Posted: 1/7/2021 2:54:18 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HS2:
I've had better luck with the 77 SMKs than the Aussie 69gr.   Midway has the IMI 77 SMKs in stock for $1.20/round.   Expensive, but at least its available.

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I’ve been going back and forth on buying the IMI. Tough to bring myself to paying $263 shipped for 200 rounds.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 4:52:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2021 4:59:31 PM EST by bfoosh06]
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 5:27:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:



This... the 69gr SMK Aussie is a decent bargain considering todays prices.

Don't forget to try some Hornady 75gr... while not as universally GTG as the 77gr SMK, if your barrel likes them.. they can shoot.

One of my Kriegers loves the 75gr Steel match... I wish that ammo was till sold.

Brass cased 75gr , From Creedmoor sports.. ( still expensive... but... )

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/creedmoor-5-point-56-nato-75-grain-hpbt-ammunition-in-lc-brass-200-ct/Rifle-Ammunition
View Quote

Thanks, I’ll give it a look. With shipping for 200 that comes out to $1.05 a round vs the IMI at 1.31 a round
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 9:37:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 9:43:30 PM EST
FGMM is the gold standard. Everything else is just better or worse.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 10:02:18 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:


Here is some chrono data... for the 70-77gr various brands.

So don't be surprised if anything you try is kinda all over the place as far as point of impact.


70gr through 77gr


Brand and headstamp on brass................................................16 " Velocities ( FPS )........20" Velocities ( FPS ).........Comments......,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, NC means NATO CROSS

SSA 5.56 70gr TSX..................................................................Av. 2508, ES 76....................Av. 2610, ES 11...............

Hornady 73gr ELD .223 ....................................................................................

ASYM 75gr .223...........................LC 14 NC..............................Av. 2605, ES 52.................Av. 2752, ES 40............"A+" Accuracy

Black Hills 75gr .223 OTM .........F C 223 REM..........................Av. 2419 , ES 84.................Av. 2579 , ES 45..............

Creedmoor 75gr BTHP .223.............................................................................

Hornady. 75gr Match....................HORNADY 223 REM...........Av. 2510 , ES 50................Av. 2640 , ES 60...........Interesting that this is faster both Nosler and Norma as well as more accurate
Hornady Super. 223 Match 75....HORNADY 223 REM............Av. 2701 , ES 41................Av. 2790 , ES 54.......... Exact same headstamp as the standard 75gr match good accuracy
Hornady Super. 5.56 75... ...........Hornady 5.56 NATO.............Av. 2785 , ES 31...............Av. 2840 , ES 42............Best accuracy in both rifles....
Hornady 75gr 5.56 "Black".................................................................................
Hornady 75gr 5.56 T2 Tap.................................................................................
Hornady 75gr 5.56 SBR TAP...............................................................................
Hornady 75gr 5.56 SBR TAP "Training"................................................................
Hornady 75gr "Steel Match" .223...........................................................................

HPR .223 75gr.............................LC 13 NC..............................Av. 2414, ES 87.................Av. 2528, ES 112...........Slow but great accuracy

HSM 75gr 5.56 ... .......................HSM 06 NATO 5.56..............Av. 2648 , ES 31.................Av. 2801 , ES 24.......... Excellent accuracy... out to 300 yards.( As far as got )
75gr HSM 5.56 Tactical OTM ....LC 06 ( NATO Cross )............Av. 2795 , ES 49................Av. 2863 , ES 37............Excellent accuracy

PPU 75gr .223.............................PPU 223 REM......................Av. 2461, ES 69...................Av. 2590, ES 109............Dismal accuracy... as a matter of fact 4MOA at 100yds.

Speer 75gr .223 GD......................................................................................

SSA 5.56 77gr.............................5.56 SSA..............................Av. 2442, ES 25....................Av. 2567, ES 60............."B+" accuracy
SSA 5.56 70gr TSX..................................................................Av. 2508, ES 76....................Av. 2610, ES 11...............
SSA 5.56 77gr OTM Mk262 Clone...........................................Av. 2395, ES 74.....................Av. 2488, ES 33.............

Tula 75gr .223..............................................................................................

Wolf Gold .223 75gr HP.................................................................................



Atlanta Arms 77gr TMK , AMU.....................................................................

Beck Ammo. 5.56 77gr SMK ...............................................Av. 2469, ES 34.....................Av. 2734, ES 8...........

Black Hills 77gr 5.56 OTM .........LC 14 ( NATO Cross )............Av. 2592 , ES 21................Av. 2675 , ES 82..............Very accurate
Black Hills 77gr 5.56 TMK .........WCC 14 ( NATO Cross )...........Av. 2636 , ES 54................Av. 2753 , ES 63..............Outstanding Accuracy.

CBC 77gr 5.56.............................5.56 CBC 14..........................Av. 2577, ES 60..................Av. 2752, ES 75
CBC 77gr 5.56 PR 844 SMK ......5.56 CBC 12..........................Av. 2620 , ES 36.................Av. 2729 , ES 34...........These last two are labeled with different powders.
CBC 77gr 5.56 WC732 SMK ......5.56 CBC 14..........................Av. 2640 , ES 52.................Av. 2712 , ES 50............

Creedmoor .223 77gr TMK.............................................................................
Creedmoor .223 77gr OTM.............................................................................

Corbon 77gr .223 MPR..................................................................................

Federal 77gr 5.56 "FC262".................................................................................
FGMM 77gr .223 SMK FGMM....F C 223 REM..........................Av. 2340 , ES 25................Av. 2411 , ES 33.............. Very good accuracy

Fiocchi 77gr .223 SMK ..............G.F.L. 223 REM......................Av. 2390 , ES 96................Av. 2488 , ES 53............. about average accuracy for 77gr

IMI 77gr 5.56 OTM..................IMI 13 variety of 2 digits.........Av. 2726 , ES 39..................Av. 2810 , ES 41........... Not the most accurate, but certainly a good value.

Norma 77gr .223 TAC ...............norma 223 REM....................Av. 2430 , ES 75...................Av. 2550 , ES 68...........Average 77gr accuracy

Nosler 77gr.223  CC...................NOSLER 223 REM................Av. 2440 , ES 28...................Av. 2569 , ES 36.......... I need more trigger time with this ammo

PMC XTAC 77gr .223 SMK .......PMC 223 REM........................Av. 2350 , ES 62................Av. 2427 , ES 31...............

Rem. 77gr .223 SMK .................R-P 223 REM..........................Av. 2468 , ES 73.................Av. 2563 , ES 39.............

Sig Sauer 77gr SMK .223..................................................................................

Winc. 77gr 5.56.........................WCC 14 5.56MM....................Av 2566... ES 36..................Av 2676.... ES 20.............Decent speed, but there is faster.
Winc. 77gr Match 5.56 _ _ _ .... WCC 14 5.56 MM...................Av. 2364 , ES 47................Av. 2468 , ES 54..............For a 5.56 round, this is very low velocity.

View Quote

That’s a lot of great info, thank you.

Looks like there was a lot of luck from those Hornady 75 grains. Maybe I’ll pick up that Creedmoor ammo with the Hornady 75 grain HPBT and give it a try. Then wait for some FGMM or Black Hills 77 gr to be available.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 11:23:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:



This... the 69gr SMK Aussie is a decent bargain considering todays prices.

Don't forget to try some Hornady 75gr... while not as universally GTG as the 77gr SMK, if your barrel likes them.. they can shoot.

One of my Kriegers loves the 75gr Steel match... I wish that ammo was till sold.

Brass cased 75gr , From Creedmoor sports.. ( still expensive... but... )

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/creedmoor-5-point-56-nato-75-grain-hpbt-ammunition-in-lc-brass-200-ct/Rifle-Ammunition
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
Originally Posted By MfK:
I've found the 69gr Aussie ammo to shoot better than the recent runs of black hills 77gr. While it is loaded mild, with 300yards being your max distance you won't notice a difference. And is certainly cheaper and more available. Shoot the Aussie for paper and save the 77gr black hills for shooting people



This... the 69gr SMK Aussie is a decent bargain considering todays prices.

Don't forget to try some Hornady 75gr... while not as universally GTG as the 77gr SMK, if your barrel likes them.. they can shoot.

One of my Kriegers loves the 75gr Steel match... I wish that ammo was till sold.

Brass cased 75gr , From Creedmoor sports.. ( still expensive... but... )

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/creedmoor-5-point-56-nato-75-grain-hpbt-ammunition-in-lc-brass-200-ct/Rifle-Ammunition

I always lament the loss of Hornady Steel Match. Don’t know what you got til it’s gone.
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 8:38:51 AM EST
OP:

I shoot a lot of Service Rifle out to 600yds.  
At 300, you'll start to see the larger wind drift of the 69's.....(not the end of the world but in comparison to the 77's- slightly noticeable)
I'd recommend going with the 77's.....

Some guns will shoot the 75's …..some will not.....
Pre-panic I'd say buy a box of both and see.....  

But right now ……. don't go crazy …..

(PS in my experience.... when I've shot the 75's and they didn't as well as the 77's...… I mean the 77's I can rapidly find a MOA-ish load...
If the 75's don't "shoot well"  2MOA-ish...…. so again, not the end of the world, but noticeable)

If you do intend to shoot past 300 at all...….. go with the 75-77's.....  
If you could shoot past 600..... 77's for sure...……
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 10:33:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/9/2021 12:41:19 PM EST by Soberglitch]
Unfortunately where I’m at there’s only one range that goes beyond 200 yards and after the one year waitlist and $450 startup membership fee you have to apply and be escorted to the longer range. Just not worth it.

I picked up 200 of the 69gr and 200 of the 75gr. Doesn’t seem worth it right now to pay $1.25 a round for the IMI or PMC 77gr
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 11:18:37 AM EST
i have preferred Hornady. Shorter neck to disruption. It has been suggested that the SMK's are a bit more accurate, which I think is alluded to above. I don't shoot hi-power, and if I am shooting in self defense I can only legitimately see across the room or house shots, Hornady has what I need. I don't need to wring every bit of accuracy out of a bullet, I need it to penetrate, to 12 inches and frag early.
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 9:51:43 AM EST
The Outback 69 SMK is a good bit more accurate in ALL my guns than any 77gr.

I have always been stocking the 77gr MK262 clones, including from Black Hills, IMI, and CBC and the Outback outshoots them by a good margin. I'd get the 69 if pure accuracy (out to maybe 3-400 yards) was a priority.

But as has been stated above, the Outback is a 223 load at mild velocity. But I think it's going fast enough, being 69gr, to frag or open at the same range envelope as the 77gr.
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 1:03:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/9/2021 7:01:19 PM EST by bfoosh06]
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 4:33:30 PM EST
SG Ammo has IWI 77 grain RazorCore right now but it is over $1 a shot. Hand loading if you can find components is about $0.75 a shot for most of the OTM stuff.
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 7:29:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
The Outback 69 SMK is a good bit more accurate in ALL my guns than any 77gr.

I have always been stocking the 77gr MK262 clones, including from Black Hills, IMI, and CBC and the Outback outshoots them by a good margin. I'd get the 69 if pure accuracy (out to maybe 3-400 yards) was a priority.

But as has been stated above, the Outback is a 223 load at mild velocity. But I think it's going fast enough, being 69gr, to frag or open at the same range envelope as the 77gr.
View Quote


To be honest.... you have gun issues or using the wrong barrel if 69's are "...good bit more accurate...."  than the 77's.  
But then it depends on what you mean by that.....

Also I'm sorry but the reason the 69's aren't shot by anyone who wins in Service Rifle past 200yds is their BC can't compare to the 75's-77's.....

Regardless of that ........if the 77's are such poor performers for you, Why have them?  
       
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 8:08:58 PM EST
What I mean by "good bit more accurate" is that the bullet holes are closer together, on the paper, when I fire Outback 69gr.

The holes in the paper are further apart when I use any of my 77gr loads (BH, IMI and CBC).

This is out to 200 yards, 5 shot groups.

This is for ME, in MY guns so dont be offended. I'm not saying YOU should shoot 69gr bullets.
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 8:56:11 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
What I mean by "good bit more accurate" is that the bullet holes are closer together, on the paper, when I fire Outback 69gr.

The holes in the paper are further apart when I use any of my 77gr loads (BH, IMI and CBC).

This is out to 200 yards, 5 shot groups.

This is for ME, in MY guns so dont be offended. I'm not saying YOU should shoot 69gr bullets.
View Quote


I'm not offended at all....... and your answer right here tells me all I need to know about the basis of your comments.....  

 
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 9:40:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
I’m taking my first step into the heavier grain match ammo and unsure of which route to go.

Available options that I’ve seen so far are:
IWI 77 gr SMK, Nosler 77 gr and PMC 77 gr X-Tac match
PPU 75 gr
and Aussie Outback 69 gr SMK

Going to be ran through my 16in 1:7 Recce setup. Right now I’m limited to roughly 300 yards and just want to push the accuracy at that distance.
View Quote


Nosler 77gr is EXCELLENT stuff, but kinda expensive. It's what you would actually use in matches if you don't handload well. IWI is good, but simply not in the same category as the Nosler. PMC and PPU are simply mediocre. Aussie stuff, I have no experience with.
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 9:56:44 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:


Nosler 77gr is EXCELLENT stuff, but kinda expensive. It's what you would actually use in matches if you don't handload well. IWI is good, but simply not in the same category as the Nosler. PMC and PPU are simply mediocre. Aussie stuff, I have no experience with.
View Quote

Unfortunately I think as I was starting this thread the Nosler went out of stock.

So far I’ve bought a couple hundred of Aussie 69gr and Creedmoor 75gr (Hornady bullet and LC brass).

I’ll keep my eye out for more Nosler then since I’m trying to round out the testing with a 77gr option.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:29:05 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Soberglitch:

Unfortunately I think as I was starting this thread the Nosler went out of stock.

So far I’ve bought a couple hundred of Aussie 69gr and Creedmoor 75gr (Hornady bullet and LC brass).

I’ll keep my eye out for more Nosler then since I’m trying to round out the testing with a 77gr option.
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Originally Posted By Soberglitch:
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:


Nosler 77gr is EXCELLENT stuff, but kinda expensive. It's what you would actually use in matches if you don't handload well. IWI is good, but simply not in the same category as the Nosler. PMC and PPU are simply mediocre. Aussie stuff, I have no experience with.

Unfortunately I think as I was starting this thread the Nosler went out of stock.

So far I’ve bought a couple hundred of Aussie 69gr and Creedmoor 75gr (Hornady bullet and LC brass).

I’ll keep my eye out for more Nosler then since I’m trying to round out the testing with a 77gr option.


Yes, if you can, those three would give you a good idea what you and your rifle can do....  
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:09:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:

I always lament the loss of Hornady Steel Match. Don’t know what you got til it’s gone.
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Originally Posted By doty_soty:
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
Originally Posted By MfK:
I've found the 69gr Aussie ammo to shoot better than the recent runs of black hills 77gr. While it is loaded mild, with 300yards being your max distance you won't notice a difference. And is certainly cheaper and more available. Shoot the Aussie for paper and save the 77gr black hills for shooting people



This... the 69gr SMK Aussie is a decent bargain considering todays prices.

Don't forget to try some Hornady 75gr... while not as universally GTG as the 77gr SMK, if your barrel likes them.. they can shoot.

One of my Kriegers loves the 75gr Steel match... I wish that ammo was till sold.

Brass cased 75gr , From Creedmoor sports.. ( still expensive... but... )

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/creedmoor-5-point-56-nato-75-grain-hpbt-ammunition-in-lc-brass-200-ct/Rifle-Ammunition

I always lament the loss of Hornady Steel Match. Don’t know what you got til it’s gone.


QFT.  I love the steel match.  I still have a few boxes left.

When I learned that it was discontinued, I searched the web and thought I found some, but it turned out to be the 75 grain training rounds.  I haven't shot any yet, but I'm not expecting them to be as accurate.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 12:35:24 PM EST
Not all barrels will necessarily love the ADI 69, but if you have a 223wylde chamber, the probability goes up imo. I use it in my 223 trainer and a few AR’s that really like it. It’s proven to be sub half moa in my trainer and I can ring the 4” plate at 500yds with it. It doesn’t do as well in the wind as the 77smk or 75gr eld, but it will be a great option for 300yds on paper or steel.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 12:50:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2021 12:51:26 PM EST by Soberglitch]
I have a 5.56 chamber 16” with a 1/7 twist. Probably should have noted that in the original post. If the estimated delivery time is correct I should be getting the 69gr and 75gr I bought this weekend and I’ll try them out.

My range currently only goes to 200 yards. If they get the land use rights sorted out with the county they’ll be pushing it out to 1000. So for now I’m not too worried about bucking the wind or dropping too much.
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