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Posted: 5/15/2023 2:49:46 PM EDT
See Page 3 for update.
I bought two of the Remington R4 uppers discussed in another thread. They were delivered today, and are already on their way to the gunsmith to get Phantom 5C2 flash suppressors pinned and welded. Before boxing them back up to ship I took these pictures:          PRO / Positive Commentary + These are 100% Philippine contract uppers. The barrels are serial numbered "AFP xxxxx". They are also marked "REM 5.56 NATO 1/7". + As a AFP contract upper, these are CHF barrels. + The FSB is "F" marked. + BC key staking looks good. NEUTRAL Commentary = The upper is a keyhole forge marked. No other markings exist. = The uppers have serial numbers inside near the gas tube (I actually moved this from "PRO" to "NEUTRAL" because while neat the barrel serial is actually more useful because it can be viewed without pulling the BCG out). = The bolt carrier is unmarked but chrome lined. = The barrels have proof markings. CON / Negative Commentary - The upper does not have "T" markings on the 1913 pic. - The bolts are not marked MP. One has a "D" and the other has no markings at all. - The firing pins are non-functional. They have not been "demilled" but the ends are blunted so they will not function. - The handguards are single heat shield and not-glued. They feel flimsy. OVERALL IMPRESSION These were the best deal I've found on anything AR15 related in a lot of years (assuming they function when they come back from the P/W job). After I get them back I intend to post a side-by-side shooting comparison between these Rem Defense R4 CHF SOCOM uppers and my factory Colt SOCOM uppers. To be apples to apples I will be installing M4 RAS and LMT L8A sights on each. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 3:28:15 PM EDT
[#1]
 Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP)/Foreign Military Sales brother checking in.
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Posted: 5/15/2023 4:18:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.imgur.com/sawPeeD.jpgArmed Forces of the Philippines (AFP)/Foreign Military Sales brother checking in. Nice - the complete AFP kit (panels, VFG, etc). |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 4:22:30 PM EDT
[#3]
How do you know they're chf?
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Posted: 5/15/2023 4:35:30 PM EDT
[#4]
The amount of butt hurt the 14.5" R4 barrels from CDNN caused on this board was great. The guys sayiing don't buy that junk were eating crow for a while. I bought two at like $99 per. great barrels.
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Posted: 5/15/2023 4:37:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you know they're chf? There isn't a lot of data on these floating around on the interwebs. We all know Remington won the US contract to supply M4s but then ended up losing a contested contract case to FN. Presumably these rifles would have been built to TDP (licensed from Colt as FN ended up doing). As non-TDP foreign contract rifles, the AFP guns fit all of the available literature about Remington Defense R4 which all consistently indicate CHF barrels. All the sales literature, brochures, etc indicate CHF. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 4:55:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Well I just bought one. This pushed me over the edge. Thanks!
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Posted: 5/15/2023 5:03:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I just bought one. This pushed me over the edge. Thanks! Haha. When I posted the thought crossed my mind ... that GB seller should be giving me royalties because this thread is going to drive his sales up. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 5:31:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Well I just bought one. This pushed me over the edge. Thanks! Quoted: Haha. When I posted the thought crossed my mind ... that GB seller should be giving me royalties because this thread is going to drive his sales up.  Ditto
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Posted: 5/15/2023 5:43:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice - the complete AFP kit (panels, VFG, etc). Thanks! Freedom Group (Remington?) must have owned or had some business relationship with Tapco at some point, because the big honking vertical fore grip is Tapco, as well as the rail covers. The VFG is made in America and while bigger than the comparable Knight's VFG, is still comfortable. As others have posted on the other threads, the rail hand guard itself is a Mission First Tactical Tekko, the metal version. I've got to say, it locks up on the barrel nut quite securely. Some of the other (later?) AFP issue kits had a Magpul rear sight and what looks to be a Magpul QD sling swivel (which fits into the QD port built into the MFT hand guard). My R4 has an "N" marked charging handle and the upper receiver is unmarked with the forge. The carry handle sight is Cardinal Forge. I pinned and welded a BCM A2X flash suppressor to bring the barrel up 16". Everything was fully functional when it arrived, the firing pin was not blunted. Strangely, the butt stock is the same P&S used on Colt M4s, but the pistol grip is a weird almost issue A2 with a more pointed flare at the bottom that came on Bushmasters and early BCMs. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 10:14:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you know they're chf?  From the Remington Defense Catalog 2012. Page 15 upper right hand corner. https://ar15tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/2012_RemDef_Catalog.pdf And..  And https://www.tactical-life.com/firearm-news/remington-defense-army-carbines/ https://www.guns.com/news/2018/07/26/remington-secures-contract-for-army-carbine-order-video And a big long thread about the barrels, https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Remington-M4-SOCOM-Barrel/12-747092/?page=1 And interestingly.... https://silahreport.com/2020/04/18/remington-r4s-reach-iraq/ Sooooo..... maybe ? |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 10:41:18 PM EDT
[#11]
The amount of markings.. stamps.. proof marks. Colt fanboys, myself included, are furious right now.
Lol. Good deal on a nice upper. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 10:48:15 PM EDT
[#12]
@bfoosh06
Thank you for posting all of the information. I had seen most of it but there was some new data too. I don’t think we’ll ever know definitively if these are CHF. I think it was in the long thread link where someone tried calling and was basically pawned off by CS. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 10:50:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The amount of markings.. stamps.. proof marks. Colt fanboys, myself included, are furious right now. Lol. Good deal on a nice upper. Haha. Definitely a “neat” pair of uppers that will look great next to my Colts. I would love to score a couple of REM Defense R4 lowers … just because … but until that happens I’ll be using them on an orphaned Colt M4 lower. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 5:45:20 AM EDT
[#14]
Destroyed the firing pins for no reason...unless used for drill purposes prior to selling I can't think of why that was necessary.
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Posted: 5/16/2023 6:34:00 AM EDT
[#15]
I bought a CDNN 14.5" Remington M4A1 barrel a while back. Had it re-P&W with a Vortex as I didn't like their P&W too much or the YHM flash suppressor.
Remounted it on a Colt Cage Code upper, didn't care for the Mueller upper and already had the Colt. Shoots about the same as my M4A1 Colt barrels, which is very good. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 9:57:36 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought a CDNN 14.5" Remington M4A1 barrel a while back. Had it re-P&W with a Vortex as I didn't like their P&W too much or the YHM flash suppressor. Remounted it on a Colt Cage Code upper, didn't care for the Mueller upper and already had the Colt. Shoots about the same as my M4A1 Colt barrels, which is very good. Both of mine are off to be P/W. They both came with "Keyhole" (Cerro) forge uppers. I too wouldn't be happy with a Mueller. I'm hoping these shoot as well as my Colt SOCOMs as I am duly impressed by their performance. I haven't owned a DPMS AR in at least 15 years so I had to google the "D" on the one bolt. It is "backwards" compared to how most bolts are stamped, but assuming you "read it the other direction" it is a "D" which I do believe means DPMS. Freedom Group (or whatever) owned both Remington and DPMS so I'm assuming parts were getting cross installed. No matter, good proven MPI/HPT bolts are widely available if I have any problems later. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 10:01:38 AM EDT
[#17]
I forgot, both of my gas tubes are amber colored. The only other AR I've had that turned this particular shade were Bushmasters. I had quite a few Bushmasters in the 1994-1998 time frame and they all exhibited "strawing" of the tubes quickly (as in test firing). Freedom Group owned Bushmaster so I am going to assume, again we all know what ASS-U-ME means, Rem Defense used BM tubes in these.
Regardless, I've never had to replace a gas tube that wasn't damaged as a result of someone dropping the upper with the HGs off and they're $10 to replace. The bolts (see above post) are wear items. If I get 5k out of the bolt I'll be thrilled. I should know in about 3 months as I'm ramping my 5.56 training back to the pre-ammo-shortage level again. This puts me back on a 2k per month firing regimen. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 10:09:59 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @bfoosh06 Thank you for posting all of the information. I had seen most of it but there was some new data too. I don’t think we’ll ever know definitively if these are CHF. I think it was in the long thread link where someone tried calling and was basically pawned off by CS. You are very welcome. I also agree, I don't know if we will ever know if these are CHF. I would like that, and considering it takes money for CHF machinery... I hope Remington did use it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 12:42:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are very welcome. I also agree, I don't know if we will ever know if these are CHF. I would like that, and considering it takes money for CHF machinery... I hope Remington did use it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Remington has been using CHF for sometime now on most, if not all, of their barrels. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 2:26:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are very welcome. I also agree, I don't know if we will ever know if these are CHF. I would like that, and considering it takes money for CHF machinery... I hope Remington did use it. Based upon the available information, I believe the objective likelihood the barrels are CHF is very high. I'm being objective because while I would prefer a CHF I don't need it. Colt's SOCOM are not and they are absolute beasts. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 2:30:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Remington has been using CHF for sometime now on most, if not all, of their barrels. Yes, that is my understanding (REM used CHF for everything for quite a while). The confusion comes into play when considering Remington originally won the United States Military contract to supply the US with M4 Carbines. These carbines would have had to comply with the TDP which does NOT allow CHF barrels. Some might believe Remington produced barrels in compliance with the TDP while FN and Colt contested the contract. However, I doubt this because a licensing agreement would have had to be in place between REM Defense and Colt for the use of Colt's TDP. FN ended upon obtaining the contract (low bidder) and licensing agreement with Colt. Personally I believe there is no reason to believe Remington produced any non-CHF barrels. They didn't execute production of a TDP M4 for the U.S. and our allies don't have the same requirements. Therefore, why would Remington switch production to a different type when they're making ALL OTHER barrels via CHF process? |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 4:54:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Based upon the available information, I believe the objective likelihood the barrels are CHF is very high. I'm being objective because while I would prefer a CHF I don't need it. Colt's SOCOM are not and they are absolute beasts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are very welcome. I also agree, I don't know if we will ever know if these are CHF. I would like that, and considering it takes money for CHF machinery... I hope Remington did use it. Based upon the available information, I believe the objective likelihood the barrels are CHF is very high. I'm being objective because while I would prefer a CHF I don't need it. Colt's SOCOM are not and they are absolute beasts. Thanks everyone. I wasn't trying to be contentious. Just asking. Any more links? |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 6:12:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks everyone. I wasn't trying to be contentious. Just asking. Any more links? I know that, and sorry if I came across as an a-hole... I wasn't trying to. I remember when these first came out, so I went back down the rabbithole, Lol |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 7:19:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know that, and sorry if I came across as an a-hole... I wasn't trying to. I remember when these first came out, so I went back down the rabbithole, Lol Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thanks everyone. I wasn't trying to be contentious. Just asking. Any more links? I know that, and sorry if I came across as an a-hole... I wasn't trying to. I remember when these first came out, so I went back down the rabbithole, Lol No, you weren't. I just know I come of as brusk sometimes. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 8:23:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks everyone. I wasn't trying to be contentious. Just asking. Any more links? I didn’t take it that way at all. It was a good question. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 8:25:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, you weren't. I just know I come of as brusk sometimes. I am told, often, that I’m very brusque. I didn’t take your comment that way at all. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 9:09:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The amount of butt hurt the 14.5" R4 barrels from CDNN caused on this board was great. The guys sayiing don't buy that junk were eating crow for a while. I bought two at like $99 per. great barrels. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 9:57:28 PM EDT
[#28]
When I was on a MEU, we went down to the Philippines and trained their Marine Corps. They were using everything from M14s, M4s, and M16 A2s.
Most of them were more deadly with a knife or bolo than a rifle. Some of the ranges we did with them were sketchy. Those guys could build anything out of bamboo. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 10:12:54 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Remington has been using CHF for sometime now on most, if not all, of their barrels. They were button rifling a lot of AR barrels in Huntsville. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 11:01:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am told, often, that I’m very brusque. I didn’t take your comment that way at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, you weren't. I just know I come of as brusk sometimes. I am told, often, that I’m very brusque. I didn’t take your comment that way at all.
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Posted: 5/16/2023 11:04:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I was on a MEU, we went down to the Philippines and trained their Marine Corps. They were using everything from M14s, M4s, and M16 A2s. Most of them were more deadly with a knife or bolo than a rifle. Some of the ranges we did with them were sketchy. Those guys could build anything out of bamboo. I was in the Philippines for like 2 months. Those guys were better than our pogs. I probably went through a pallet of buck shot in a shotgun course I taught. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 11:23:01 PM EDT
[#32]
My Remington Defense upper receiver that never had a barrel attached, had an, "R" stamped on the rear lug and the top rail had no T marks.
Did they make a T marked upper too? The Remington SOCOM barrel is Parkerized after the FSB is installed, where the US military barrels are Parkerized before the FSB is installed. The Philippines received defective, flimsy, commercial rear sights on their R4 carry handles. Remington replaced their rear sights some time after they were purchased. They used the Mission First Tactical two piece drop in M4 quad rails. They aren't bad, but they are heavy, especially with the SOCOM weight barrel. Overall the Philippines weren't very happy with their R4's, but that may have been more due to the weight than anything else. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 9:02:40 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were button rifling a lot of AR barrels in Huntsville. Do you know the profile and length? |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 9:05:19 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My Remington Defense upper receiver that never had a barrel attached, had an, "R" stamped on the rear lug and the top rail had no T marks. Did they make a T marked upper too? The Remington SOCOM barrel is Parkerized after the FSB is installed, where the US military barrels are Parkerized before the FSB is installed. The Philippines received defective, flimsy, commercial rear sights on their R4 carry handles. Remington replaced their rear sights some time after they were purchased. They used the Mission First Tactical two piece drop in M4 quad rails. They aren't bad, but they are heavy, especially with the SOCOM weight barrel. Overall the Philippines weren't very happy with their R4's, but that may have been more due to the weight than anything else. My two R4 complete URG do not have T marks. I would need to check the lug for a stamp, but both uppers are "keyhole" (Cerro) forge marked in the usual spot. No "M4" on the front near the gas tube hole. Serial number inside near the gas tube (in the CH slot). Both of my uppers came with M4 plastic handguards with single non-glued heat shields. ETA: There is no question my uppers are Philippine contract as they're AFP serial numbered on the barrels. I guess someone could have sourced AFP barrels and built uppers, but the seller had a TON of identical URG so I doubt this was the case. The real question is ... were these contract overruns that we wholesaled out to the civilian market or some how found their way back into the US from the Philippines. As long as it shoots 85% as well as my Colt SOCOMs I don't care about the provenance, markings, collector value (if such a thing exists in the AR world), cloning, or other. I bought these to be analog trainers for my Colts (keep the round count down on the "good" uppers). |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 9:43:12 AM EDT
[#35]
I’ve got one of the cdnn barrels and with the exception of the serial number on the bottom all other markings are identical. My barrel shoots great.
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Posted: 5/17/2023 10:45:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Apparently, some Australian police bought R4's and had a very difficult time sighting them in.
Some blame the front sight height being non-F and some blame the carry handle rear sight height. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 12:06:46 PM EDT
[#37]
I’ve been watching these on and off on JFE’s website and gunbroker listings for about a year, and I’d managed to abstain. The FOMO finally reached a level that I had to order. I figure this thread will sell the rest of the stock.
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Posted: 5/18/2023 12:35:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Unfinished under the fsb is a deal breaker for me. Bummer.
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Posted: 5/18/2023 1:31:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfinished under the fsb is a deal breaker for me. Bummer. Just playing devils advocate here.. If the parkerized finish was unable to get under the FSB I doubt it will ever rust. If you plan to replace the FSB then is a different story |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 1:47:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve been watching these on and off on JFE’s website and gunbroker listings for about a year, and I’d managed to abstain. The FOMO finally reached a level that I had to order. I figure this thread will sell the rest of the stock. I went ahead and bought two more. He should give me a fifth as commission for the sales resulting from this thread! |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 1:48:24 PM EDT
[#41]
The firing pins in the second two are functional. I did receive a charging handle that is bent bad enough to be non-functional. I debated contacting the seller, but these things are $20. Not worth hassling a man over $20.
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Posted: 5/18/2023 1:49:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apparently, some Australian police bought R4's and had a very difficult time sighting them in. Some blame the front sight height being non-F and some blame the carry handle rear sight height. All four of my uppers have "F" marked FSB. Other people have commented about defective (or poorly made) rear sights. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 1:52:41 PM EDT
[#43]
I had stated earlier that I was having the P/W done by Wilson. I meant ADCO.
ADCO now has four in for p/w (well, I just shipped the second pair a few minutes ago). I've never used ADCO for a P/W so I have no idea how long it will take to get the uppers returned. As soon as they arrive I'll be randomly selecting one for use. The other three are going to be held in reserve until I burn-out the barrel on the first. I'm thinking about using one of my cheap optics on the upper. I have a Vortex Strike Eagle Gen 2 1-8x that is available. That optic might be a good way to determine the accuracy potential of these barrels (instead of an Aimpoint). Review of ADCO's P/W and the upper's performance will be posted in this thread. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 2:38:38 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had stated earlier that I was having the P/W done by Wilson. I meant ADCO. ADCO now has four in for p/w (well, I just shipped the second pair a few minutes ago). I've never used ADCO for a P/W so I have no idea how long it will take to get the uppers returned. As soon as they arrive I'll be randomly selecting one for use. The other three are going to be held in reserve until I burn-out the barrel on the first. I'm thinking about using one of my cheap optics on the upper. I have a Vortex Strike Eagle Gen 2 1-8x that is available. That optic might be a good way to determine the accuracy potential of these barrels (instead of an Aimpoint). Review of ADCO's P/W and the upper's performance will be posted in this thread. ADCO is one of the best, so is John Thomas (Retro Arms Works) |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 5:24:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ADCO is one of the best, so is John Thomas (Retro Arms Works) I have no doubt they'll be awesome when they're returned to me. I'm mostly interested in how these shoot compared to the "known quantity" (i.e. Colt SOCOM). If they shoot within 85% of a Colt they're a "best buy" at the current price for a complete URG (although from my experience you'll be replacing something small to get the upper to run + FS + PW). |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 5:29:28 PM EDT
[#46]
My cost break down across the four uppers:
URG Cost ... $317.50 averaged YHM Phantom 5C2 ... $26.50 (after coupon) per unit Shipping to ADCO ... $9.25 per unit ADCO P/W ... $30 per unit Return Shipping (estimated) ... $12.50 per unit Replacement firing pin (2 required / averaged across 4 uppers) ... $2.50 per unit Replacement charging handle (1 required / averaged across 4 uppers) ... $9 per unit Estimated total cost per complete URG with P/W device ... $407.25 |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 5:58:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All four of my uppers have "F" marked FSB. Other people have commented about defective (or poorly made) rear sights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Apparently, some Australian police bought R4's and had a very difficult time sighting them in. Some blame the front sight height being non-F and some blame the carry handle rear sight height. All four of my uppers have "F" marked FSB. Other people have commented about defective (or poorly made) rear sights. Yes, I thought the new barrels I got from CDNN had F marked sights and I bought new upper receivers from CDNN that had no T-marks and had an, "R" stamped in the rear lug. The uppers and barrels looked good. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 10:54:39 PM EDT
[#48]
ive been eyeing this upper for quite some time too since its a nice remembrance of my home country. we would never have legally been able to own any ar15s back home.
anyways, i contacted a friend whos been issued this and he told me to stay away from it as it was trash. asked him what was wrong with it, but he didnt elaborate. but back reading here made me presume it was those sights and flimsy furniture. be that as it may, i wish someone can confirm if its a CHF barrel or not and if it does indeed shoot close to the colt socoms. for those who wanted to pair this with a lower having the correct r4 markings, i requested dogfight ink to make one. its already up on his site as per his email. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 11:15:01 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 5/19/2023 10:07:46 AM EDT
[#50]
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