RELOADING QUESTIONS

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RELOADING QUESTIONS

Posted: 7/13/2022 11:50:07 AM EDT

Shooting/reloading 223/556 at the moment. AR-15's. I like to load up to pressure signs, then back off a bit for safety. Now, my questions:

I had a load worked up that I liked using CCI primers. The specifics are not important to the question at hand. I scored some Fiocchi primers, (at a truly horrid price.)

So, I dropped the charge two full grains to be safe, and loaded up a batch of test rounds in .2 grain incremental steps. Two rounds at each step. That cost me 20 bullets, 20 precious primers, my powder, etc.

I know this is how "the book" would have you do it, but is this really how it's done in the real world, in order to verify a different primer??

Next question. My shooting can range from an ambient temp of 50 degrees to an occasional 115. How much allowance should one make for ball powder rounds that might get shot on one of my hot days? (Those are pretty rare, as when it's that hot, I just become a vampire and stay inside!)

Last question!!

I have an AR-15 in 223 Wylde. My daughter has an AR-15 with the "looser" chambered 556. Is it really necessary to use up components doing the complete full, aforementioned load workup in her gun in order to safely use my rounds/loads in both guns?? Or should what's safe in my gun, be also safe in hers with it's looser chamber?? Maybe drop just a half grain and test to be super safe??

Thanks for input,
Vettepilot

Posted: 7/11/2022 6:19:19 AM EDT

[#1]

for me ! i always done 2 things , pick the speed i want to
send the bullet and what i want that bullet to do at distance,
and a load that the rifles likes , if i have to back off
a couple hundred feet to get the groups i like so be it , then
i run the dope for that rifle bullet/powder combo .

the time you put into a handload for your rifle
will help you be a better shooter .
if you just want to shoot fmj just load your rounds to 2900
and send them down range .

TS2

Posted: 7/11/2022 6:24:52 AM EDT

[#2]

RELOADING

Posted: 7/11/2022 7:16:03 AM EDT

[#3]

Shooting a f'ing ar.
Go with middle of book charge. And be happy.

Posted: 7/11/2022 9:27:54 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
Shooting a f'ing ar.
Go with middle of book charge. And be happy.

View Quote

This. Life's too short to overthink it without a really good reason.

Posted: 7/11/2022 10:33:08 AM EDT

[#5]

I have reloaded for 25+ years, so I have seen some things. In an attempt to answer your questions, I have not personally seen a pressure increase due to a primer change, but it can happen. If I had a new brand of primers, I would load it up with the same powder charge that was safe with the old primer test fire (safety glasses etc) examine the fired case and check the velocity over a chronograph.

There is not any good way to predict how higher temperatures will or won't give a noticeable increase pressure. A looser 5.56 chamber should, all things being equal, result in lower pressures.. The chronograph is your friend, if the the velocity seems too good (high) there may well be a pressure issue.

I am a fan of published data, often middle of the road charges that are safe and effective in multiple firearms, so you have a wide safety margin that would render some of your questions moot. What is the difference between 2.800 and 3,000 feet per second? For the majority of shooters out there, not much!

Good luck, be safe and enjoy!

Posted: 7/11/2022 10:37:14 AM EDT

[#6]

"Next question. My shooting can range from an ambient temp of 50 degrees to an occasional 115. How much allowance should one make for ball powder rounds that might get shot on one of my hot days?"

Some powders , do not like hot temps at max / near max charger weights. BL-C 2 is one of those... it will get spooky pressure signs FAST at hot temps.

Posted: 7/11/2022 11:46:30 AM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
Shooting a f'ing ar.
Go with middle of book charge. And be happy.

View Quote

amen

Posted: 7/11/2022 12:24:12 PM EDT

[#8]

Do your load development on hot days with hot ammo, shot from your Wyle chambered AR.

Then you can shoot at any temperature with any of your ARs and be fine.

If you are loading to normal pressures I wouldn't worry about the primers.

Posted: 7/11/2022 12:29:36 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I like to load up to pressure signs, then back off a bit for safety.

View Quote

Not a smart way to reload. Either for safety, consistency or accuracy.

Rarely, if ever, is the hottest pressure load the most accurate.

Posted: 7/11/2022 1:17:12 PM EDT

[#10]

Tag for later.

Posted: 7/11/2022 1:39:19 PM EDT

[#11]

Sometimes we can get too pedantic with our reloading minds. I guess people are SO spooked by tales of danger that we start overthinking everything. There have been a couple comments already here, but it bears repeating. Hottest loads are rarely the most accurate. If you're loading for plinkers, pick mid-range charge and stop thinking so much. LOL. I feel like you're looking for one of three goals when you reload. Best accuracy, or a specific muzzle velocity, or cheapest plinkers that will cycle your gun. If you're doing accuracy, then changing primers is only one of many variables that you need to control closely. If you're doing muzzle velocity, differences in primers isn't likely to be noticeable outside of the normal deviations of loads. If you're doing cheap plinkers... You're thinking too much... LOL.

Posted: 7/11/2022 10:01:46 PM EDT

[#12]

All good answers, and thank you.

I do have to admit, I like velocity. My view is one, high performance in most anything is great. Just my view. Secondly, many of us choose the longest barrel we can put up with for good performance. Why give up performance by going with a light load?? CQB guys can ignore this one.

I like high velocity loads even for plinking. Why? Because my plinking activities never include paper punching. I don't use shooting ranges, instead doing all my shooting way out in the country. I set up dozens and dozens of reactive targets like water jugs full of water, watermelons, etc., and I like to see them REACT in the most spectacular manner possible. Hence, I like high performance, even in my "plinking" ammo.

Just me, and my personal idea of fun... well, my friends and family too!

Vettepilot

Posted: 7/11/2022 10:10:02 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
All good answers, and thank you.

I do have to admit, I like velocity. My view is one, high performance in most anything is great. Just my view. Secondly, many of us choose the longest barrel we can put up with for good performance. Why give up performance by going with a light load?? CQB guys can ignore this one.

I like high velocity loads even for plinking. Why? Because my plinking activities never include paper punching. I don't use shooting ranges, instead doing all my shooting way out in the country. I set up dozens and dozens of reactive targets like water jugs full of water, watermelons, etc., and I like to see them REACT in the most spectacular manner possible. Hence, I like high performance, even in my "plinking" ammo.

Just me, and my personal idea of fun... well, my friends and family too!

Vettepilot

View Quote

Where are you shooting right now? Most if not all of AZ is on fire restrictions, so unless you're using private land, the BLM areas are off limits to plinking but the outdoor ranges is the only action.

Posted: 7/12/2022 12:14:57 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Shooting/reloading 223/556 at the moment. AR-15's. I like to load up to pressure signs, then back off a bit for safety. Now, my questions:

I had a load worked up that I liked using CCI primers. The specifics are not important to the question at hand. I scored some Fiocchi primers, (at a truly horrid price.)

So, I dropped the charge two full grains to be safe, and loaded up a batch of test rounds in .2 grain incremental steps. Two rounds at each step. That cost me 20 bullets, 20 precious primers, my powder, etc.

I know this is how "the book" would have you do it, but is this really how it's done in the real world, in order to verify a different primer??

Next question. My shooting can range from an ambient temp of 50 degrees to an occasional 115. How much allowance should one make for ball powder rounds that might get shot on one of my hot days? (Those are pretty rare, as when it's that hot, I just become a vampire and stay inside!)

Last question!!

I have an AR-15 in 223 Wylde. My daughter has an AR-15 with the "looser" chambered 556. Is it really necessary to use up components doing the complete full, aforementioned load workup in her gun in order to safely use my rounds/loads in both guns?? Or should what's safe in my gun, be also safe in hers with it's looser chamber?? Maybe drop just a half grain and test to be super safe??

Thanks for input,

Vettepilot

View Quote

Our Reloading Forum is here:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Reloading/42/

There is a separate Precision Reloading forum here:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/Reloading/10/

I believe you will find the answer to both questions is "Yes". I've been reloading multiple calibers for more than fifty years. I've never felt it safe to change primers without backing off some, maybe not all the way to starting charge, but at least a few tenths if anywhere near a maximum charge per the loading manual. And, I never shoot a handload in multiple rifles without working it up separately for each, then using the lower charge for them if they are to be shared.

Others may disagree.

Posted: 7/12/2022 2:32:14 AM EDT

[#15]

Thank you ms556.

@ArizonaRifleman: Yeah, the fire restrictions are a pain. However, as I get older I am less and less able to tolerate this horrid heat, so we don't go out much in the summer. That's the time for indoor gun projects and reloading.

Where do you shoot?

Thanks,
Vettepilot

Posted: 7/12/2022 2:42:30 AM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thank you ms556.

@ArizonaRifleman: Yeah, the fire restrictions are a pain. However, as I get older I am less and less able to tolerate this horrid heat, so we don't go out much in the summer. That's the time for indoor gun projects and reloading.

Where do you shoot?

Thanks,
Vettepilot

View Quote

PNF when there aren't restrictions, Compass Training Center when there are restrictions.

I kind of figured that you were resetting your munition stockpiles like everyone else here during the restrictions, got bored and thought of reloading stuff and made a thread about it to scratch that itch. There's a reloading section forum in the Armory side of this site that may give you more specific answers than here.

And your thread reminds me that I need to get off my keister and do a ladder test. I just hate paying for it

Posted: 7/12/2022 2:49:09 AM EDT

[#17]

This is where I'm at: I want the fastest, most accurate load. I'll build several ladders to find it. Reloading without a chronograph seems silly in my mind as I won't know how to achieve my goals. Faster rounds are fast. Accurate rounds are accurate. I just try to find where they index with a bunch of loading and testing and then go ballistic loading them. There are certainly others that have their own methods.

Posted: 7/12/2022 11:55:33 AM EDT

[#18]

What ball powder are you using? BL(C)2 is known to behave badly in high temperatures, WW-748 isn't much better.

I simply don't load my ammo hot because it's not needed. I load for accuracy as my final goal, safety>reliability>accuracy, in that order.

AA-2520 will probably serve you well in Arizona. Phil Arrington had load data for his match rifles using this powder, I believe he worked and played in AZ.

Maximum .223 loads are about as hot as I get. 5.56mm loads are not more useful IMO. My hand loads are easy on the brass, the rifle and very accurate. I never use ball powders anymore.

Posted: 7/12/2022 12:14:09 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:
Do your load development on hot days with hot ammo, shot from your Wyle chambered AR.

Then you can shoot at any temperature with any of your ARs and be fine.

If you are loading to normal pressures I wouldn't worry about the primers.

View Quote

This, if you can test with your ammo at 115 F and more importantly your barrel at 115 F then you know.

That said, a dark barrel laying in the open sun may get a damn sight warmer to the touch without firing! Not measured but by feel. One time when feeling might mean something.

I have replaced firing pins due to pierced primers. My own fault, ball powders, Spring temp load workup, worked up in an A2 and a carbine popped holes in the primers from the same bulk loading on the same July day that was “safe” in the A2. This was my plinking bulk load with ball powder. Ballc2)

A load reduction was in order and I still use a bulk loading of 55 hornady, LC cases, and currently WC844 powder.

Posted: 7/12/2022 3:43:55 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
What ball powder are you using? BL(C)2 is known to behave badly in high temperatures, WW-748 isn't much better.

I simply don't load my ammo hot because it's not needed. I load for accuracy as my final goal, safety>reliability>accuracy, in that order.

AA-2520 will probably serve you well in Arizona. Phil Arrington had load data for his match rifles using this powder, I believe he worked and played in AZ.

Maximum .223 loads are about as hot as I get. 5.56mm loads are not more useful IMO. My hand loads are easy on the brass, the rifle and very accurate. I never use ball powders anymore.

View Quote

I've come to stay away from ball powders, too. I'm pretty much a Hodgdon "Extreme" range powder user these days. Those powders are fairly insensitive to temperature. It gets hot here in south Mississippi.

That means for .223/5.56 Benchmark, H4895 and Varget. I've found that H4895 has the best accuracy in my rifles even in light 52/53gr flat base match bullets for 100 and 200 yard benchrest. It gives up a little in velocity to some others but is very stable and accuracy nodes are wide. Its excellent for heavier bullets, but has become an all arounder for my .223/5.56. Actually, those benchrest loads are very much on the mild side.

Yeah, these are extruded and don't meter well. But, I'm not volume reloading or shooting these days. I just throw short and dribble.

If you can find any of those three give them a try.

I do not chase an extra 50 or even 100 fps, though. I only load 5.56 pressure in ammo for one hunting AR15 shooting Barnes TSX bullets. For HD distances the extra velocity of 5.56 is irrelevant.

Posted: 7/13/2022 11:50:07 AM EDT

[#21]

Topic Moved

Posted: 7/13/2022 3:17:11 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

So, I dropped the charge two full grains to be safe, and loaded up a batch of test rounds in .2 grain incremental steps. Two rounds at each step. That cost me 20 bullets, 20 precious primers, my powder, etc. I know this is how "the book" would have you do it, but is this really how it's done in the real world, in order to verify a different primer?? I wouldn't worry about peak pressure, but gas cutting through a possibly thinner primer. 0.5gr is a reasonable backoff for me, maybe 1.0 in case the nodes shift.

Next question. My shooting can range from an ambient temp of 50 degrees to an occasional 115. How much allowance should one make for ball powder rounds that might get shot on one of my hot days? (Those are pretty rare, as when it's that hot, I just become a vampire and stay inside!) Something on the order of 1-1.5fps per degree, I say 1.0 grain.

I have an AR-15 in 223 Wylde. My daughter has an AR-15 with the "looser" chambered 556. Is it really necessary to use up components doing the complete full, aforementioned load workup in her gun in order to safely use my rounds/loads in both guns?? Or should what's safe in my gun, be also safe in hers with it's looser chamber?? Maybe drop just a half grain and test to be super safe?? A proper Wylde is 99% a proper 5.56. If you know your leades are indeed similar, I'd send it. Otherwise back off 0.5 grain. Even if peak pressure is fine, one gun may be gassed more than the other and damage the base. Make sure the sized cases fit both chambers.

View Quote

For short range paper piercing, noise or wear reduction, and economy, use a low node.

For windbucking and harder target smacking, use a high node.

I find most book .223 start loads are close to the low node and 0.5 - 2.0gr above most book .223 max to be the high node.

Posted: 7/20/2022 2:26:50 AM EDT

[#23]

@ArizonaRifleman: I tried to message/e-mail you and it got rejected. This site definitely has hoops to jump through and quirks.

Can you please contact me and get us established via e-mail? I've just got some questions about your area of Arizona currently.

Thanks!
Vettepilot

Posted: 7/20/2022 6:28:32 AM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
@ArizonaRifleman: I tried to message/e-mail you and it got rejected. This site definitely has hoops to jump through and quirks.

Can you please contact me and get us established via e-mail? I've just got some questions about your area of Arizona currently.

Thanks!
Vettepilot

View Quote

My area

Restrictions were lifted, find a spot and enjoy yourself again.

Posted: 7/20/2022 11:22:00 AM EDT

[#25]

I do a little reloading and will give one piece of advice.

Find the most accurate/consistent load for your gun well under max charges in various temperatures. Accuracy is more important than speed in most cases. Then, as you have temperature fluctuations, you know your results will be relatively consistent - and consistency is the name of the game.

Posted: 7/20/2022 4:41:38 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

My area

Restrictions were lifted, find a spot and enjoy yourself again.

View Quote

Thank you. Generally when we go over there these days, we go to the Williams area so I was hoping to find out how the rains have been and what conditions are like in that area too.

The last time to Prescott, after a many year hiatus, was a shocker! My favorite area was south of town, up the Senator Highway. It used to be, once a bit past where the pavement ends, it was wild, unrestricted country. Now there are more "Keep Out" and "Don't do this/that" signs than you can count!! EVERWHERE! Major bummer!! Even up roads that used to be 4x4 only, where I used to go shoot and cut firewood. (25+ years ago...)

Thanks,
Vettepilot

Posted: 7/22/2022 7:13:47 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
I do have to admit, I like velocity. My view is one, high performance in most anything is great. Just my view. Secondly, many of us choose the longest barrel we can put up with for good performance. Why give up performance by going with a light load?? CQB guys can ignore this one.

I like high velocity loads even for plinking. Why? Because my plinking activities never include paper punching. I don't use shooting ranges, instead doing all my shooting way out in the country. I set up dozens and dozens of reactive targets like water jugs full of water, watermelons, etc., and I like to see them REACT in the most spectacular manner possible. Hence, I like high performance, even in my "plinking" ammo.

Just me, and my personal idea of fun... well, my friends and family too!

Vettepilot

View Quote

The reactive difference between 3,000 fps and 2,950 fps is exactly nothing.

If you pick the right propellant, you can get a high velocity without going to high pressures, for example, here we see that Benchmark gives best accuracy while having a reasonable pressure.

Posted: 7/22/2022 4:15:49 PM EDT

[#28]

Very true. It's actually amazing how the different powders work, and peak pressure doesn't tell the story. Look at a very fast powder for caliber compared to a very slow one, especially with heavier bullets, for an interesting example.

Then too, there's the "Point of diminishing returns", where increasing charge weights give little or no velocity increases.

All fascinating stuff. When I started reloading years ago, I thought this was all super simple. Just throw a measure of gun powder, stuff a bullet and go! Then I bought my first reloading kit, and started reading. WOW!!---> to say the least! I had NO IDEA how much there is to it

So I bought numerous more books, and started studying them, and the internet carefully, in earnest. I've been doing that and reloading for years now, yet ~~still~~ feel like a beginning student. Amazing, and intensely interesting.

Back then, I immediately went to my brother and warned him away from ever attempting reloading himself. He's kind of a blundering, "Anywhere near the ballpark is fine", sloppy workmanship kind of personality. He also strongly feels "The rules don't apply to me." All in all an entirely unsafe type person to attempt reloading, though I love him.

Vettepilot