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Posted: 12/6/2020 10:20:19 PM EDT
I've never owned an AR before, so this is totally new to me, just learning.
It went pretty well till I had to drill out the selector switch hole. I decided to drill from both sides, and it seems one side is off from the other. Using a 5d tactical jig I just got a few weeks ago. Here are some pics of the result. I have nothing to compare it to, but I think the selector switch hole should be more centered between the stops, and the left side is off but the right side is good, am I correct?   
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Posted: 12/6/2020 10:30:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Looks like might be a jig issue.
Do they line up properly on the jig itself? |
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Posted: 12/6/2020 10:51:27 PM EDT
[#2]
They do, but it appears I have oval shaped bushings. I guess that solves the mystery. Thanks.
Apparently I'm not the only one. |
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:01:07 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:07:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Where does this put the selector detent hole relative to the safety/selector? Will it engage?
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:15:12 PM EDT
[#5]
That was going to be my next question, is this still usable?
I don't even have a lower parts kit to install yet. |
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:20:36 PM EDT
[#6]
If the holes do not align a safety selector will not fit in.
You can save the lower if you can TIG fill the holes, then re-do with a better jig. I always recommend using the plastic lowers for the 1st few go's at it with the home jiggys. |
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:26:56 PM EDT
[#7]
I'd fill it with JB Weld and redrill from the good side using a drill press.
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:33:42 PM EDT
[#8]
The safety detent hole was off center on one of my 5DT lowers after I drilled it. After asking for pictures, which I provided, 5D refused to replace the lower until I cut it in half and returned it to them. Low quality + poor customer service = Haven't spent a cent with them since.
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:46:18 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The safety detent hole was off center on one of my 5DT lowers after I drilled it. After asking for pictures, which I provided, 5D refused to replace the lower until I cut it in half and returned it to them. Low quality + poor customer service = Haven't spent a cent with them since. That is sad to hear. I wonder if they realize that lowers, and guns in general, only have 3 dimensions to them? Maybe the 2 extra dimensions they added to get to “5D” caused everything to be off? |
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Posted: 12/6/2020 11:57:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd fill it with JB Weld and redrill from the good side using a drill press. I would however key the existing hole 1st, use a small carbide round on dremel to cut a groove into the OD of the existing hole so the JB can key in. I had one where hole was a tad too big (sloppy drill), so I keyed the hole and put a smear of JB around, then went back with sandpaper on rod to slowly get shape and size back. Safety then fit like a glove. If you pick just one side to redo, what side do you pick? Would be good to know the pin spacing as-is to see which side is wonky. |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 12:15:21 AM EDT
[#11]
What if I put it in a press and drill the hole out straight?
My under standing is it isn't the hole that provides the tension on the selector switch so it may wiggle but wouldn't be lose. Worth a try? I could always try the JB weld if that doesn't work. The problem is how do I drill the hole in the right place now? Should I work with 5d on a replacement or just return it or do I replace the bushings myself? Will they replace the lower that's now damaged even though I didn't get that through them? |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 12:45:53 AM EDT
[#12]
Getting ready to change into someone more comfortable. Name changes coming.
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Posted: 12/7/2020 1:50:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if I put it in a press and drill the hole out straight? My under standing is it isn't the hole that provides the tension on the selector switch so it may wiggle but wouldn't be lose. Worth a try? I could always try the JB weld if that doesn't work. The problem is how do I drill the hole in the right place now? Should I work with 5d on a replacement or just return it or do I replace the bushings myself? Will they replace the lower that's now damaged even though I didn't get that through them? I would start by sending the jig back for at least an inspection, and if it's bad they should replace both the jig and your lower. You might want to find a local smith person to inspect the jig for you to get that 2nd opinion, etc. Re-drilling the hole as-is w/o the right tools will likely just goof it up more. And, you don't yet know if the jig is bad or good yet. Are you confident that only the one side is the problem? If so then maybe you key that side and fill it with JB, let it harden 48hrs, then try to set it up square on a drill press and use the existing hole as the guide to drill inside-out the opposite side (oil the bit flutes after you get it through the good hole to help it not shave any more from that hole). This should at least make the holes on axis, and hopefully that axis line is located in the right location, etc. You have to accept that 80%'s are what they are, and that you are not precise like a CNC machine is. Gain the knowledge from this and build more AR15's ;) |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 2:43:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Getting ready to change into someone more comfortable. Name changes coming.
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Posted: 12/7/2020 2:50:45 PM EDT
[#15]
THIS is why I only drill the trigger pins and safety hole on a drill press that I’ve ensured the table is “squared” with the drill bit.
I start with the drill press OFF, I line up the jig UNTIL the bit enters the hole with NO RESISTANCE, only then do I turn on the drill press and drill the hole. AND use lots of lubricant. |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 5:33:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Personally, I would throw that attempt in the trash.
These are not plastic model kits meant to hang on the wall. JB Weld has no business on a firearm... Also looks like they are cheaping out by making their own drill bushings. Real drill bushings are hard as s#it. Those look like they are already oblong. People without actual metal working experience don't realize that twist drill will cut sideways, and the reason why drill bushings (real ones) are used. |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 5:47:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Personally, I would throw that attempt in the trash. These are not plastic model kits meant to hang on the wall. JB Weld has no business on a firearm... Also looks like they are cheaping out by making their own drill bushings. Real drill bushings are hard as s#it. Those look like they are already oblong. People without actual metal working experience don't realize that twist drill will cut sideways, and the reason why drill bushings (real ones) are used. Yep, +1 on basic drills eating up sideways, but oil or cutting fluid (and going slow on a sturdy press), will reduce that. Well, I did mention to TIG fill it (back plate it, TIG fill it) and re-drill re-machine the pocket, but in a pinch to save something the JB will work. 100% not ideal, but a fix. It's a live-learn-experience, learn from it, make more ;) |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 5:50:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Unfortunately 7075-T6 doesn’t take well to welding
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Posted: 12/7/2020 5:58:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately 7075-T6 doesn’t take well to welding True, not ideal, but 7075 can be TIG'd. Finding a TIG person who can do it, will likely be more $$$ than the lower blank itself. |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 6:02:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also looks like they are cheaping out by making their own drill bushings. Real drill bushings are hard as s#it. I wonder if that’s now the case. I have one of the VERY FIRST 5D Tactical PRO jigs, my bushings are fine, But that was manufactured under a different ownership! When I called I would speak directly with the owner, Andy. Sadly he’s no longer involved with the company and apparently hasn’t been for quite awhile. He was great to deal with and I don’t think this crap they are now putting out would have occurred under his watch. |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 6:05:36 PM EDT
[#21]
That much bushing wear on the first lower???
What are they making those bushings out of? Babbitt lead? What kind of drill bits were used? I've heard the ones that 5D supplied are not very good. Maybe they were really out of spec? What kind of drill was used? It kind of boggles my mind that something could get chewed up that quickly. I've seen aluminum jigs with no hardened bushings that had been used multiple times and didn't show anywhere near that kind of wear. |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 4:42:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They do, but it appears I have oval shaped bushings. I guess that solves the mystery. Thanks. Apparently I'm not the only one. OP, you don't have oval bushings. You made them oval. How do i know this? Because I just did exact same thing by using a hand drill instead of investing in a drill press.  I will invest in a drill press for the next build. |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 5:13:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Getting ready to change into someone more comfortable. Name changes coming.
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Posted: 12/11/2020 5:59:13 PM EDT
[#24]
But, but...
It's Blue anodized ! That makes it cool, right ?  People are getting hosed on this crap. |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 10:16:52 PM EDT
[#25]
I bought my 5D jig back in May of 2019. I've done quite a few lowers and the hardened steel bushings are still perfectly round and the drill bit is snug in the bushings. I use a hand drill as shown on the old videos. No problems. It must be soft bushings on the newer jigs.
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Posted: 12/11/2020 11:02:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought my 5D jig back in May of 2019. I've done quite a few lowers and the hardened steel bushings are still perfectly round and the drill bit is snug in the bushings. I use a hand drill as shown on the old videos. No problems. It must be soft bushings on the newer jigs. When the 3/8" drill bit passed through the second wall of the lower it impacted the edge of the other bushing just like in my photo above and took a big divot out of it and the surrounding aluminum before I could stop it. No damage to the drill bit whatsoever. If the bushing would be of very hardened metal, I don't think it would have been cut so quickly or would have damaged the drill bit. In general, I found I needed to apply more than "moderate" pressure to drill that hole and the one for the trigger in 7075-T6. The little holes were easy peasy, but the big ones just wouldn't budge until I applied more pressure and inadvertently canted the drill and destroyed the upper bushing. Yes, I went through half a can of WD40. So either 5D needs to instruct people to use a drill press, especially with 7075-T6 or get harder bushings or better yet, replace them with bearings ;) |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 11:13:05 PM EDT
[#27]
As I’ve stated before, 5D supplied drill bits SUCK, you SHOULDN’T need to try and force it through on the safety hole. Use a GOOD bit and plenty of your choice of lubricant
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Posted: 12/11/2020 11:43:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately 7075-T6 doesn’t take well to welding Much has changed in that regard. It could be repaired successfully. |
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Posted: 12/12/2020 12:02:32 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It kind of boggles my mind that something could get chewed up that quickly. I've seen aluminum jigs with no hardened bushings that had been used multiple times and didn't show anywhere near that kind of wear. Yeah, my EARLY Modulus Arms jig doesn’t have much wear and it’s simply anodized aluminum and not even HARD anodized. |
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Posted: 12/12/2020 11:41:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When the 3/8" drill bit passed through the second wall of the lower it impacted the edge of the other bushing just like in my photo above and took a big divot out of it and the surrounding aluminum before I could stop it. No damage to the drill bit whatsoever. If the bushing would be of very hardened metal, I don't think it would have been cut so quickly or would have damaged the drill bit. In general, I found I needed to apply more than "moderate" pressure to drill that hole and the one for the trigger in 7075-T6. The little holes were easy peasy, but the big ones just wouldn't budge until I applied more pressure and inadvertently canted the drill and destroyed the upper bushing. Yes, I went through half a can of WD40. So either 5D needs to instruct people to use a drill press, especially with 7075-T6 or get harder bushings or better yet, replace them with bearings ;) All my lowers have been 7075-T6. None have required much force for the selector holes. I use A-9 Aluminum cutting fluid and a sharp bit. I release most of the pressure as the bit starts to go through the wall so it doesn't grab. |
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Posted: 12/12/2020 9:20:02 PM EDT
[#31]
NO BIG SURPRISE HERE JUST MORE CRAP QUALITY FROM 5D, U LISTENING 5D ???????????????
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Posted: 12/13/2020 12:46:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Anybody know if these bushings are replaceable? If so, are there replacements available from McMaster-Carr, for example?
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Posted: 12/13/2020 1:15:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, my EARLY Modulus Arms jig doesn’t have much wear and it’s simply anodized aluminum and not even HARD anodized. I had one of those. I finished several lowers with mine before I passed it along to a friend of mine after I bought my Modulus HD jig. He's done quite a few more with it and as far as I know it is still fine. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 8:31:53 AM EDT
[#34]
Fantastic, my new 5d jig is a paperweight
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Posted: 12/13/2020 12:15:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anybody know if these bushings are replaceable? If so, are there replacements available from McMaster-Carr, for example? It should be possible to press out the old bushings and put in new ones. It really seems suspect that so many people seem to be having problems with this just recently. I have to wonder if 5D hasn't got a bad batch of bushings that are too soft. That maybe should be a warranty issue. It just seems like properly hardened drill bushings should not wear that much, especially on the first use and even if the drilling forces aren't quite right. As thick as those side plates are it shouldn't be easy to twist the bits that much if the bushing is hardened. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 12:16:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fantastic, my new 5d jig is a paperweight Have you contacted 5D to see if they will fix it under warranty? I've heard that with the current market conditions they are hard to get a hold of. It is too bad they don't have someone who actively monitors this forum like Modulus used to back in 2015-2017. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 1:10:01 PM EDT
[#37]
If this 80% has sentimental value....and you don't want to scrap it....
Find a friend with a Mill. Re-mill the hole to a larger size and press-fit some aluminum round stock. The re-drill and Re -mill the lower!! BTW. The Harden Drill guides are Consumables!!!!!!! The are made to be pressed out and replaced.... |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 1:54:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Thanks softwarejanitor and ca_longshot.
Anyone of the sizings of bushings. I figure I'll get them from McMaster-Carr and replace right off the bat. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 2:42:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks softwarejanitor and ca_longshot. Anyone of the sizings of bushings. I figure I'll get them from McMaster-Carr and replace right off the bat. I don’t know the size (mine are good) but I almost would consider getting the Tungsten Carbide custom made bushings, but the cost is going to be as much as the jig. Also, I would go at least 1/2” longer. Longer translates to greater accuracy on the hole. You would have the bushing partially outside the side plates but that can be worked around. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 3:06:59 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know the size (mine are good) but I almost would consider getting the Tungsten Carbide custom made bushings, but the cost is going to be as much as the jig. Also, I would go at least 1/2" longer. Longer translates to greater accuracy on the hole. You would have the bushing partially outside the side plates but that can be worked around. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 5:39:09 PM EDT
[#41]
PursuitSS and sorionic, those are both really good tips: practical and doable (once we get the sizing of the bushings for that option.)
What would be best, of course, is if 5d were to be more customer service oriented. So far, no indication that that's going to happen soon. It seems as if they're in over their head production wise. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 6:43:19 PM EDT
[#42]
It's been over a week and they haven't responded. I will be doing a charge back through my credit card.
This wasn't my first time working with a jig and a hand drill, just my first time with an ar-15 jig. The bushings are not hardened. I can mark them real easy by pressing on them with a screw driver. The drill bit I got from 5D seems really nice. Stamped USA made and I can't really fault it. The bushings are just complete crap. McMaster-Carr part # 8491A185 looks like good replacement bushings. 1/2" OD, 3/8" ID, and 1 1/2" long. These would be 1/4" longer than the originals and the longest they have without ordering custom ones. Depending on if they respond to my bank or not I'll order them and try them out for my second attempt, I still have 2 80% lowers to attempt. I also ordered a short fluted drill bit to use regardless. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 7:09:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fantastic, my new 5d jig is a paperweight go here https://www.mcmaster.com/8491A185/ |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 9:38:51 PM EDT
[#44]
(Borrowing from above posts) here are direct links to the bushings McMaster-Carr has available for the drill sizes used:
I'm thinking the 5/32" bushing isn't long enough based on the description from PursuitSS, so I included the page for ordering custom sizing. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 10:16:21 AM EDT
[#45]
In a strange turn of events they never charged me. I called my bank, they couldn't find the charge, I searched my Oct and Nov statements and I can't find it either.
It appears they sent me a jig for free so I guess I'm done complaining about it. I'll order the bushings and try again. I'll post how the replacements compare when I get them. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 10:36:18 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In a strange turn of events they never charged me. I called my bank, they couldn't find the charge, I searched my Oct and Nov statements and I can't find it either. It appears they sent me a jig for free so I guess I'm done complaining about it. I'll order the bushings and try again. I'll post how the replacements compare when I get them. They didn't charge you? That is hilarious. What lower blank are you going to try next? I was never really impressed with the ones 5D sells. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 11:45:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They didn't charge you? That is hilarious. What lower blank are you going to try next? I was never really impressed with the ones 5D sells. I bought a 3 pack from tactical machining. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 2:27:14 PM EDT
[#48]
I have heard that the TM lowers are good. I have not used them, but have seen one completed at a range and the guy said there were no issues that he had with it.
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Posted: 12/14/2020 3:28:08 PM EDT
[#49]
I've done or watched a couple dozen TM 80's. No issues to date.
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Posted: 12/16/2020 11:10:19 PM EDT
[#50]
1/2" OD is too big for the bushing. But it's the closest they sell without going custom.
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