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User Panel
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PA, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2023 11:41:35 AM EST
Sort of have a hankering for a PCC. Back before the Rare Breed trigger got banned, I wanted a CMMG Banshee with that trigger, but now, I'm thinking just a 9mm PCC for the heck of it. Lots on the market, some quite pricey. Not looking to get stupid with this.
Checked out the S&W FPC. Not bad if not a little on the pricier side for a plastic gun. The Kel-Tek sub2000 is interesting, but it seems a little too prone to issues. There's the butt ugly, but by all accounts actually decent for the money Hi-Point carbine, and if nothing else, it's cheap. Then there's putting together an AR based PCC. I have to admit, I have concerns about blowback 9's and OOB Kabooms, especially if I were to do something like put a binary trigger in it. I've seen quite a few slow-mo videos and bolt bounce is very prevalent, that's why I considered the CMMG with its radial delay, but man that jobber is expensive. Dunno, just noodling around. I have no real or specific need for one, I just like guns and a PCC is something I don't have. At least it would be a lot cheaper to burn ammo with. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2023 11:50:37 AM EST
[#1]
Maybe wait till a few of us can test the new Maxim RDB system.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=780933&tl=Maxim-Defense-RDB-review |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 12:59:01 PM EST
[#2]
It depends on your definition of PCC and your budget.
AP5 or APC9. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2023 1:17:46 PM EST
[#3]
OP, this is the rimfire and pistol caliber subsection of AR15s. If you don't want to limit yourself to AR based options then you would be better served looking in this section: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Pistol-Caliber-Carbines/48/
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Posted: 6/15/2023 1:18:08 PM EST
[#4]
$100 rebate on the SUB right now. Got one in the car w/ my can right now as we blow through H-Town.
My Gen 2 runs steel case through a 40 rnd ETS Glock mag. If you're already a M&P mag guy, then the S&W makes a lot of sense. The multi-mag SUB takes 7 different mags from: S&W SIG CZ Beretta Canik |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 1:37:14 PM EST
[#5]
I have a few, Sub 2000 is least favorite to shoot.
Others are: Beretta CX4, mine is a SBR Ruger take down The Beretta controls / ejection can be changed for lefty. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 2:17:56 PM EST
[#6]
I vote get the Sub 2000
Nice heavy two part bolt that beats the crap out of your shoulder so you will save money on ammo cause it is horrible to shoot Seriously unreliable plastic feed ramp to make all ammo have issues feeding Best platform to mount an optic to the other guns you own cause it is pointless on a folding gun You can support a small business by needing the MCARBO metal feed ramp....just to add more money to a great priced gun |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 2:49:45 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Member13: I vote get the Sub 2000 Nice heavy two part bolt that beats the crap out of your shoulder so you will save money on ammo cause it is horrible to shoot Seriously unreliable plastic feed ramp to make all ammo have issues feeding Best platform to mount an optic to the other guns you own cause it is pointless on a folding gun You can support a small business by needing the MCARBO metal feed ramp....just to add more money to a great priced gun I shoot mine out to 100 yds and haven't bought any MCARBO parts for it. No issues feeding. It does leave a bruise b/c it's so light. I should get the heavier factory bolt weight for it when running the can. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2023 4:25:40 PM EST
[#8]
I'll just leave this here... a tad pricey but not terrible to find and head and shoulders past the S2K.
Can't compare to the S&W since I've only played with one of those once briefly. The CZ has been a constant out and about for 18 months without a hiccup. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2023 6:13:45 PM EST
[#9]
Springfield Saint Victor 9mm carbine.
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Posted: 6/16/2023 10:20:44 AM EST
[#10]
I'd build my own simple blowback AR9. I have a binary AR9 and no OOB. In fact, none of my AR9's have had OOB's when using the proper parts.
A big part of the problem is that people who don't know any better keep stubbornly recommending, and cheap manufacturers keep using, outdated 1980's parts intended for the original Colt AR9 configurations. Since then we've figured out all the shortcomings of the original system and what parts to use to get an AR9 running 100%, but those old habits passed-on from one generation to the next die hard. The correct parts cost a little more than the cheap crap most manufacturers use, so instead of building it to operate properly they give you a gun that just barely functions and call it "good". "Good" for their profits, that is, but not for you. Then it's up to you to spend 100's to fix all the build-in problems. I recently built an 8.3" 9mm upper for $276 total including 9mm Bolt and CH. Feeds/functions 100%. Minus the bolt and CH it was $160. Add a 9mm lower, correct buffer/spring/tube/trigger/grip and you're good to go. It's easy, but it requires knowing which parts to choose. See these for more info if you're interested: 4-step guide to make (almost) any AR9 run 100% Beware of obsolete parts |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 6/16/2023 11:03:42 AM EST
[#11]
You mentioned putting together, so look at the price for a CMMG radial bolt and barrel kit rather than the whole gun.
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Posted: 6/16/2023 12:31:57 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -k-: You mentioned putting together, so look at the price for a CMMG radial bolt and barrel kit rather than the whole gun. This is what I did. Runs great so far, but have not hit the dreaded 1,500 round count yet. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2023 8:56:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: Thomasc1169]
[#13]
I really like my Freedom Ordnance FX-9 w/ CMC PCC trigger, but as it's the only PPC I have, I am bias. I have shot my buddies B&T APC9K and I like it, but I can get 2 or 3 of the FO PCC's for what he has in his B&T.
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Posted: 6/20/2023 9:08:13 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: $100 rebate on the SUB right now. Got one in the car w/ my can right now as we blow through H-Town. My Gen 2 runs steel case through a 40 rnd ETS Glock mag. If you're already a M&P mag guy, then the S&W makes a lot of sense. The multi-mag SUB takes 7 different mags from: S&W SIG CZ Beretta Canik Sub2K is good. I've tried a lot of the AR variants. (Mag adapter for Colt mag, Colt mag, Glock mag) My current choice in a PCC is my AR-V. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:15:14 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhereg: Sub2K is good. I've tried a lot of the AR variants. (Mag adapter for Colt mag, Colt mag, Glock mag) My current choice in a PCC is my AR-V. I have looked at those a few times and came close to pulling the trigger. Is it reliable? |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:36:10 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: I have a few, Sub 2000 is least favorite to shoot. Others are: Beretta CX4, mine is a SBR Ruger take down The Beretta controls / ejection can be changed for lefty. Was it a factory SBR or what did you do to shorten the barrel if it was a form 1? Seems like cutting the barrel could be dicey due to the chrome lining. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:53:45 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WilsonCQB1911: Was it a factory SBR or what did you do to shorten the barrel if it was a form 1? Seems like cutting the barrel could be dicey due to the chrome lining. This really isn't the thing that it is made out to be. Chrome lining isn't like the chrome plating on a bumper of a car. |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 10:55:37 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: I have looked at those a few times and came close to pulling the trigger. Is it reliable? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By jhereg: Sub2K is good. I've tried a lot of the AR variants. (Mag adapter for Colt mag, Colt mag, Glock mag) My current choice in a PCC is my AR-V. I have looked at those a few times and came close to pulling the trigger. Is it reliable? I haven't put a huge amount of rounds through it and I have only run it suppressed w/ a huge F1 can but I haven't had any jams or malfunctions. I'm used to ARs so all my controls except the mag release are in the same place. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/20/2023 8:17:58 PM EST
[#19]
The CX4 is a fantastic little rifle. Highly recommend.
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Posted: 6/20/2023 8:38:57 PM EST
[#20]
I'm very happy with my MPX
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2023 8:41:20 PM EST
[#21]
Best bang-for-the-buck introductory PCC is IMO the EP9
Fave is the Banshee |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 8:58:09 PM EST
[#22]
By far the most overlooked 9mm PCC: Stribog roller delayed SP9A3. F'ing sweet rigs for cheap nobody knows exists. Partly because Grand Power bumble fucked magazines, gen 1, gen 2, gen 3.0, and 2 gens of magazines, so there is that. But a >3000 SN SP9A3 running the Gen 3 (i.e. curved) magazines, is actually the sweetest bang for your buck out there.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2023 12:27:21 AM EST
[#23]
Stribog roller delayed SP9A3 is not a carbine it is a pistol - they do not import the 16-inch barrel model.
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HI, USA
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Posted: 7/1/2023 12:09:46 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -k-: You mentioned putting together, so look at the price for a CMMG radial bolt and barrel kit rather than the whole gun. This is my plan… |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 7/24/2023 8:04:02 PM EST
[#25]
My Sub 2k is the most accurate and (I still can't believe it) reliable PCC I've ever shot. I'm going to ditch the plastic trigger group and do a couple other long term reliability upgrades to it, but it off the box the thing just runs.
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Posted: 7/24/2023 8:16:59 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gee223: My Sub 2k is the most accurate and (I still can't believe it) reliable PCC I've ever shot. I'm going to ditch the plastic trigger group and do a couple other long term reliability upgrades to it, but it off the box the thing just runs. With steel case out of the despised 40 round ETS mag that chokes my Gen 5 "perfection" 26. |
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Posted: 7/25/2023 12:16:05 AM EST
[#27]
You haven't really said what is important to you, or what you want to use it for, so people just randomly throw out whatever they bought that they like.
I have a KR-9 that I really like (9mm AK/Russian Vityaz clone). MP5s are freakin' cool, and really nice to shoot. I've made several ARs in 9mm, and they always seem cool until I shoot them, but someday (maybe with the help of some of the new delayed blowback recoil mechanisms) I'll finally make one that I can stand to shoot. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/25/2023 7:18:47 AM EST
[#28]
I was on the fence about a PCC for quite some time, so I decided to put one together a while back. I ended up having nearly $2,000 wrapped up in this thing. I built a 16" so I wouldn't have to worry about the SBR thing. It shot great! It was smooth and accurate but at the end of the day, I was like meh! I wish I had my $2k back. It's not something I was overly excited to shoot so I sold it.
After awhile again I kind of felt like I wanted another one but I'd build it on the cheap. I found a bolt and barrel on this site for $200. I already had a Spikes buffer and I bought an Endo-mag. I had all the other parts. It shoots/cycles great and the best part of it is I don't have so much money wrapped up in something I rarely shoot. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/25/2023 7:55:48 AM EST
[#29]
AP5 or bust.
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Posted: 7/25/2023 10:03:12 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WilsonCQB1911: Was it a factory SBR or what did you do to shorten the barrel if it was a form 1? Seems like cutting the barrel could be dicey due to the chrome lining. @WilsonCQB1911 Sorry just saw this. Form 1, local gunsmith / machinist cut, crown, thread, engrave. I was concerned about the chrome or affecting accuracy but it shoots as well or better than it did before. Before that I had ADCO thread the 16", always shoot suppressed. Chrono at 12" vs 16" no change with 147 gn ammo. |
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Posted: 7/25/2023 10:18:48 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: @WilsonCQB1911 Sorry just saw this. Form 1, local gunsmith / machinist cut, crown, thread, engrave. I was concerned about the chrome or affecting accuracy but it shoots as well or better than it did before. Before that I had ADCO thread the 16", always shoot suppressed. Chrono at 12" vs 16" no change with 147 gn ammo. Thanks for the response! |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/25/2023 2:19:51 PM EST
[#32]
Picking a particular PCC on ARFCOM is subject to the same lack of approbation as is picking ones nose in public.
Best of luck with whatever you decide. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 7/25/2023 5:05:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: emandude]
[#33]
I just picked up a Sub2000 G17 version. And I have to say maybe I'm a Weirdo but contrary to most youtube and interwebz takes I considered in an enjoyable shooter in my first 2000 rounds. Mushy trigger but didn't feel anvil heavy to me the way it's been described. Trigger Does not feel like an impediment at all once you get shooting, you don't think about it. But there's upgrades available.
Recoil was a push instead of a snap and felt very tolerable. Irons Zeroed quickly and it shot well. Only thing I added was a Performance services LLC slightly taller combat aperture rear sight which seemed to make for a better cheek weld angle. Fits in a 17 inch laptop case and I already had a bin full of loaded range mags for it waiting at home when I signed the paperwork. For under 500 bucks I'm happy. If it gets bugout gun duty all I'd probably do is put in a metal feed ramp. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2023 1:45:13 PM EST
[#34]
CMMG, radial delayed blowback, it is so soft shooting, 2k rounds thrue 16 inch and suppressed 5 inch with no issues.
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KS, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2023 1:55:25 PM EST
[#35]
CMMG, radial delayed blowback, it is so soft shooting, 2k rounds thrue 16 inch and suppressed 5 inch with no issues.
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Posted: 7/27/2023 2:09:59 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By texaspaulhouston: Stribog roller delayed SP9A3 is not a carbine it is a pistol - they do not import the 16-inch barrel model. Well, the good news it they actually do now. The bad news is that they priced it by the inch apparently. |
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Posted: 7/27/2023 2:14:02 PM EST
[#37]
I have a Colt 9mm carbine. I only shot it one day but it seems pretty fun. I had a Beretta carbine but sold it.
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Posted: 7/27/2023 3:18:42 PM EST
[#38]
Pretty happy with my Aero EPC-9.
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Posted: 7/27/2023 4:45:59 PM EST
[#39]
Originally Posted By emandude: I just picked up a Sub2000 G17 version. And I have to say maybe I'm a Weirdo but contrary to most youtube and interwebz takes I considered in an enjoyable shooter in my first 2000 rounds. Mushy trigger but didn't feel anvil heavy to me the way it's been described. Trigger Does not feel like an impediment at all once you get shooting, you don't think about it. But there's upgrades available. Recoil was a push instead of a snap and felt very tolerable. Irons Zeroed quickly and it shot well. Only thing I added was a Performance services LLC slightly taller combat aperture rear sight which seemed to make for a better cheek weld angle. Fits in a 17 inch laptop case and I already had a bin full of loaded range mags for it waiting at home when I signed the paperwork. For under 500 bucks I'm happy. If it gets bugout gun duty all I'd probably do is put in a metal feed ramp. My Sub2K shoots well, and is convenient to drop in a small bag when travelling. It sucks w/ a beard. It'll pluck hairs as you shoot as it cycles. |
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Posted: 7/27/2023 6:01:06 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhereg: My Sub2K shoots well, and is convenient to drop in a small bag when travelling. It sucks w/ a beard. It'll pluck hairs as you shoot as it cycles. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhereg: Originally Posted By emandude: I just picked up a Sub2000 G17 version. And I have to say maybe I'm a Weirdo but contrary to most youtube and interwebz takes I considered in an enjoyable shooter in my first 2000 rounds. Mushy trigger but didn't feel anvil heavy to me the way it's been described. Trigger Does not feel like an impediment at all once you get shooting, you don't think about it. But there's upgrades available. Recoil was a push instead of a snap and felt very tolerable. Irons Zeroed quickly and it shot well. Only thing I added was a Performance services LLC slightly taller combat aperture rear sight which seemed to make for a better cheek weld angle. Fits in a 17 inch laptop case and I already had a bin full of loaded range mags for it waiting at home when I signed the paperwork. For under 500 bucks I'm happy. If it gets bugout gun duty all I'd probably do is put in a metal feed ramp. My Sub2K shoots well, and is convenient to drop in a small bag when travelling. It sucks w/ a beard. It'll pluck hairs as you shoot as it cycles. I've not had that problem yet, but I shave it off every month or so, whenever the hairs start curling over my lip. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2023 6:04:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: MGYSGT8541]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aimless: I have a Colt 9mm carbine. I only shot it one day but it seems pretty fun. I had a Beretta carbine but sold it. |
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Posted: 7/27/2023 6:16:06 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MGYSGT8541: It's kind of weird that nobody brings up Colt outside of you. I find them to be awesome. About the only thing I changed on mine is put an LaRue MBT trigger in them (2). Colt has this gun dialed in. You can get one for 999$. Someone said on this thread that they sank 2 G's into an AR9 . Freaking nuts. Buy a colt if you want an AR9. Colt developed the gun and worked out the kinks long ago. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MGYSGT8541: Originally Posted By Aimless: I have a Colt 9mm carbine. I only shot it one day but it seems pretty fun. I had a Beretta carbine but sold it. It's kind of weird that nobody brings up Colt outside of you. I find them to be awesome. About the only thing I changed on mine is put an LaRue MBT trigger in them (2). Colt has this gun dialed in. You can get one for 999$. Someone said on this thread that they sank 2 G's into an AR9 . Freaking nuts. Buy a colt if you want an AR9. Colt developed the gun and worked out the kinks long ago. Sure, but $2k in an AR-9 is likely a gamer gun w/ really fast splits, or some flavor of delayed blowback. It is a bit weird to me that you can build a 5.56x45mm AR-15 for under $400, but the simpler AR-9 parts sticker the price well over that. |
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Posted: 7/28/2023 8:22:51 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MGYSGT8541: It's kind of weird that nobody brings up Colt outside of you. I find them to be awesome. About the only thing I changed on mine is put an LaRue MBT trigger in them (2). Colt has this gun dialed in. You can get one for 999$. Someone said on this thread that they sank 2 G's into an AR9 . Freaking nuts. Buy a colt if you want an AR9. Colt developed the gun and worked out the kinks long ago. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MGYSGT8541: Originally Posted By Aimless: I have a Colt 9mm carbine. I only shot it one day but it seems pretty fun. I had a Beretta carbine but sold it. Love my colt 9mm. If I didn’t already have one and a scorpion I would get another. I tried the LaRue trigger but it wouldn’t work. When I emailed Larue they told me they said it wasn’t compatible with a 9mm. I got the CMC trigger instead. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 9:27:55 AM EST
[#44]
Originally Posted By EDL: I have to admit, I have concerns about blowback 9's and OOB Kabooms, especially if I were to do something like put a binary trigger in it. I've seen quite a few slow-mo videos and bolt bounce is very prevalent, that's why I considered the CMMG with its radial delay, but man that jobber is expensive. The OOB discharge in blowback AR9 is a valid concern and I wish the community understood the problem better. Because, unlike its parent AR-15, an AR9 with a one-piece bolt has no mechanical safety, OOB fire is not a question of if, it's a question of when. There's no AR9 that will never have it. But by selecting weights and springs, it's possible to postpone the when far enough - hopefully longer than the lifetime of the shooter. It's like the cataract in your eye: every human gets it, but not everyone live long enough. I thought about designing a mechanical interlock fully within the bolt. Not linking the bolt with fire control, such a device is not amenable to a conversion to an auto sear, and thus is free from legal scrutiny in the U.S. But I realized one thing: in order to be effective, it has to have a significant safety margin. Such an interlock will then preclude firing when the bolt is just slightly out, likely not yet enough to blow the brass. A gun that is safe from OOB that way is going to be perceived as unreliable by the community and then rejected by the market. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 9:40:24 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: Maybe wait till a few of us can test the new Maxim RDB system. I'm not a fan of Maxim system, for a couple of reasons. One, it adds the complexity but is not OOB safe. I understand that it buys one a recoil reduction, so that's great, but not enough for me. Two, locating the delay in the buffer places the whole receiver and the buffer tube into the load path at the time of firing. That cannot be a good idea. Also, they use balls, not rollers. Scheel used rollers in the buffer before Maxim, but Maxim is different. It's more like MEAN system, only in the buffer, not in BCG. Finally, calling the whole contraption "RDB" is borderline malicious. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 9:46:42 AM EST
[#46]
For a 16" BBL, probably none. 9mm and other pistol calibers shine in the SMG configuration, so an SBRd Stribog with the roller delay combined with modern materials, weight, last shot hold open, and support of optics systems is best bang for your buck - by far.
Anything blowback is an auto rejection. Which is most of the options suggested. And CMMG rotary delay is actually pretty cool, but way overpriced. That's my take - since you asked. But really, get and run what you want and that brings a smile to your face. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 2:17:54 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zaitcev: I'm not a fan of Maxim system, for a couple of reasons. One, it adds the complexity but is not OOB safe. I understand that it buys one a recoil reduction, so that's great, but not enough for me. Two, locating the delay in the buffer places the whole receiver and the buffer tube into the load path at the time of firing. That cannot be a good idea. Also, they use balls, not rollers. Scheel used rollers in the buffer before Maxim, but Maxim is different. It's more like MEAN system, only in the buffer, not in BCG. Finally, calling the whole contraption "RDB" is borderline malicious. How is that any different from the Colt blowback AR-9 that's been reliable for decades? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 6:30:28 PM EST
[#48]
Were I interested in buying a 9mm PCC, AR type firearm today and even though I've never shot one; my choice would be a JP Enterprises JP-5 in one of the three patterns that JP offers; probably the APC. Some fungible AR parts, some proprietary parts. Uses Glock 17/19 type 9mm mags. It's delay blowback system is not sort of like the vaunted H & K MP5, it's a close as possible copy of the MP5 delay blowback system - even uses some common parts. Pricy as all get out - definitely a buy once, cry once purchase.
Best of luck with whatever you decide. MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 6:36:27 PM EST
[#49]
I've gone down the pcc road and realized unless you have an sbr for it, they are essentially the same size as a 16" AR or AK and I'd rather have the power of an AR or AK.
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Posted: 9/1/2023 7:24:51 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amprecon: I've gone down the pcc road and realized unless you have an sbr for it, they are essentially the same size as a 16" AR or AK and I'd rather have the power of an AR or AK. This. And 9mm "cost savings", aren't. |
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