So this whole project started out from a post here where someone was discussing RO727 variations and someone mentioned there were a small number of highly modified 727 carbines built for the SOF guys in the mid 90's. The thread contained these pictures.







Thread is archived now but I believe it was called Pre SOPMOD 727 carbines or something like that.

Anyway after analyzing the pictures and reading the thread several times. I decided to put a build together.


And here it is!








It isn't completely assembled yet as I still need to drill holes in the handguard for a few Picatinny rail sections as well as holes for the set screws in the gas block.

That gas block and the fact that this has a 12.5" barrel and an AEM5 suppressor as opposed to a 14.5" barrel and the old Ops Inc 3rd model are the major differences between the originals and mine.

The carbine in the photos from Bosnia obviously doesn't have the suppressor attached. But from the best of my knowledge configurations similar to this did exist.

Whats left is to finish turning the handguard into swiss cheese and then mount everything for good.

The gas block is a JP enterprises adjustable model. Its a deviation from what little info exists about these carbines, but I want to shoot and enjoy mine so adjustable gas block it is (the AEM5 on a short barrel has a lot of back pressure). Plus at 10 feet it's hard to spot the differences unless you're looking for it.

I'll update once I get it all assembled but even just mocked up it feels pretty cool.

Let me know what you all think! Thanks.

Very niiiiiiiice!!!  Very cool build.  Our resident clone expert Augee did a build from that same pic. Not sure if he still has it or not.  

Super cool.

That definitely existed, with the knurled float tube.  There are no pics of them anywhere that I've seen yet online, but I've seen them personally.

They attached Weaver rail sections on the tube for the PAQ-4, Surefire at 10:30 or 2:30, and Fighter Jock grip with dual red buttons for activation of the light and laser at 6.

They also had the sharks tooth recoil pad zip-tied on the butt.

Everything was Bowflaged after that.  

Guys in Sniper Sections would attach Harris bipods as well.

Pistol grip was Lone Star Ordnance with the compartment.

They were 14.5" 727/XM4 barrels with Ops Inc reflex cans.

My 727 will be in that configuration when I'm done with it.

This is where I'm at now:

I don't know about everything else, but I can tell you that JP Enterprises adjustable gas block is a fine piece of equipment.

Nice! I have the same project in mind, and gathered all the parts for it.. I might go a different route with the barrel, as I don't feel like "wasting" a real 727 barrel when the FSB is hidden, and has to be popped off anyway.

I haven't decided what way I want to go;

Either a Harris bipod, and 4x Hensoldt, or an Aimpoint.

Epic build!

Capability-wise, they were really onto it already back then:

Streamlined Rifle-length free float tube
Suppressed
Mounting for Surefire
Mounting for IR pointer
Integrated pressure activation for both light and IR laser
RDS

Thanks for the comments guys!

Good to hear the JP gas block is good to go. Seems very well made.

I already had the 12.5" barre set up for the aem5. Plus it being almost butted against the FSB kind of mimics the ops 3rd model. Maybe I'll get  a 14.5 for it one day.

I'm excited to shoot it.

Also does anyone know what the appropriate type of rail sections would be? I want to mount a couple for the fore grip and a surefire.

Thanks!

Brownell's Weaver Bases

Look at the specs and pic the right one for you.

Handguard needs to be drilled and tapped preferably.

You can use fasteners with backplate nuts as well for more secure mounting, but it's hard to hold the nuts in place inside the tube.

These are the obstacles they went through, leading to dedicated railed handguards from KAC.

It's also an issue dealing with timing the float tube once you get it set up, dude burns out a barrel, go to pull it, re-install tube, and they don't clock up right.

That's why the carbon fiber OD tube is nice because the ring sucks it towards the upper over the barrel nut, versus spinning the thing around.

The FSP cut is also a PITA because you have to hit the taper pins through holes that need to be drilled into the sides of the tube so you can have access to the FSB.

It all ended up with the KAC MRE handguard, and then later low profile gas blocks sleeved over.

HK416 series has its own gas block, so they went away from all that mostly, but with Geissele handguards.

Looks good. Now put an old 6p and a hk 3pt and youre good to go!

I would assume they just used a new tube?

I'll take a look at those bases. Thanks.

And I know what you mean about timing the tube and having to drill a bunch of holes to get access to everything. My gas block has Allen head screws instead of taper pins but it's still the same problem.

Luckily I'll probably never burn the barrel out so once mine is together it'll stay. I marked the upper, the locking ring, and the tube so I can time everything after I have to take it apart again. Hopefully it all lines up again.


And yes this will get a surefire 6p just like the rifle I'm trying to copy.

Nice job on this different build.  I remember Augee's post of his build.  Really the beginning of the rail use in the military.  Curious what the weight is on yours.

Thanks!

An I haven't weighed it yet but with the suppressor off its probably similar to a stock M16A1 clone. With the can on its probably heavier. The AEM5 is really solid and its all stainless steel I think.


Edit also does anyone know what type of foregrip would have been used at the time? I figured it would be KAC or similar. I know LRRPF52 mentioned the fighter grip with two buttons for light/laser. I was aiming for something closer to the bosnia picture I posted where it has the tape switch for the surefire on it.
It looks like a KAC style grip but I'm not sure.

I looked into it, and one of the "period correct" choices was the Wilcox power grip.

A KAC grip would work as well... Those were in the 1995ish brochure I remember. Along with a foregrip that  had a telescoping monopod by them. Not sure if that ever came to be.

Good info. That wilcox grip is a bit out of my price range. The KAC one is kind of spendy too but I'll look for a used one I think.


Lastly any one have experience mounting the weaver bases to a tube? The Brownells site has everything listed for mounting to a rifle like they're intended to. Should I try to get one with a curved bottom that may or may not match the radius of the tube? Or just get a flat bottomed one? Thoughts?

I remember seeing the KAC SOPMOD kit come out in 1995.

Soldier Magazine even had an article on it, which I thought looked way too bulky with all the panels on it.

A lot of Teams in SF still had not installed all their KAC Rails by 1998, but were using different components from the SOPMOD package, like the suppressor, ACOG, Reflex sight, BUIS, etc.

There are some curved ones that are meant for specific rifle actions that have more curvature to them at the front of the receiver, but not so much like the back.

I don't remember which ones they were, but one of them fits pretty well with the 2" float tubes of the day.  Might be the Model 70 Winchester front base.

Another thing you run into is stand-off from the OD of the tube and how close the clamp on the 1" Weaver ring comes to the base/tube junction.

The places that did these mods have their own Quartermaster, Armory, Sewn Goods, Electronics, and other full tech support sections with each of those industry's/career field's best people, with an insane budget where they get what they want yesterday.

This is the one that some of the guys in Sniper sections used, since the modified gangster grip/button/Surefire set-up didn't work with a Harris bipod in front of it:



I don't ever like lights at 3 or 6 because they shear off going around corners and obscure their use while back-lighting your face if the wall/barricade is on that side.  I prefer either 10:30 or 2:30 for the light for that reason, or even 12 if you don't have an IR pointer/illuminator on the gun.

You can put the PAQ-4C behind the FSB and 2:30 the Surefire since the PAQ-4C's illumination emitter is on the left.  The Army first had barrel mounts that clamped to the barrel under the handguards, then interfaced with a mount on top of the handguard that the PAQ-4 would screw to with its built-in aluminum thumb screw.

Pre-SOPMOD PAQ-4C mounting and activation on the modified A2 VFG/Surefire combo seen here:



If you're going to go all out, I would recommend an A2 80% with custom engravings with Colt foreign contract logos.

You'll also need a PAQ-4C and the Surefire P60 with IR lens cover.

Get a real Colt Fiberlite stock and extension tube.  Get all Colt parts if you can actually.

Those lowers had SAFE - SEMI - AUTO positions.

Rigging the controls for the dual-activation for the light and PAQ-4C will be the more difficult part, followed by the drilling of holes for the FSB.  There were some with a pocket for the FSB, not a cut channel all the way to the front, so the FSB would just spin during installation of the tube until the tube was snug, then drill the holes to allow taper pins to be installed.

You can use aluminum stock for shims to place inside the tube so that the barrel isn't knocking out of alignment with the upper every time you whack on the punch to drive the taper pins back in.

A cleaner way to do it would be to just drill holes at 6 o'clock and have some large set screws with large dimples the way LaRue does their gas blocks and barrels.  That's what I'll probably do.  I hate having to to all that crazy crap with the taper pins, but for work guns, they always pinned.

When you get the thing all worked out, it's a pretty sick configuration that is never really seen online.  There are a lot of things that there just aren't any published pictures of.

The Squeals had their own nuances with custom guns and "Recce" carbines for Sniper Support, where armorers had cut off the rear sight and carrying handle from the upper, then drilled and tapped a long scope rail base that you could mount Leupold rings to.  They would mount up a little Leupold optic on top and use a float tube.  You can see a Wilcox laser combo on this one at 6 o'clock, which isn't a great place for that as they get dinged up pretty quick if you aren't really careful with the gun.

I'm tempted to order several of the rail sections and see what works best. I was also thinking as you said about the clearance on each side of the rail section for the weaver ring to attach. That's why I was thinking using a flat bottomed piece might be better.

And as much as I'd love to go for an engraved 80% and all colt parts Its just not going to happen for me. If I did that I'd also call Ron at Allen Engineering and see if he could make me a new 3rd model can. Maybe one day.

For now it'll be a close enough replica that I'll shoot, maybe even in a three gun match or two.

I appreciate all your help and information. It really helps!

Sorry, I'm all jacked up.  The better Weaver base fit is for the Model 70 action for the rear piece, not the front.  I had it switched around.

They can be hard to find, but for me, the ideal lower are the AR-15A2 "Gov't carbine" or AR-15A3 6721 lowers from about 1995. You might have to but a whole carbine to get one.. But you call sell the uppers if needed. If you don't use the parts for the build.

They have the preban color, the old style extension nut that is factory staked, etc... The downside is that they have all the Colt problems. Sear block, large trigger pins, and the pivot pin is not captive.

Those problems don't bother me, as I drink the Cool aid... To me, real Colt "AR-15A2" roll marks are better then fake "M-16A2" markings. From what I have seen in photos, the later look fake to me.

I picked on up on gunbroker last month for $408 shipped.

Thanks, I just ordered a couple.




As much as I'd love to do that the current lower its on is my only SBR which is needed because I'm using a 12.5" barrel. Even if I went all out with a 14.5 and an Ops 3rd model I still need an SBR lower because the 3rd model doesn't use a brake that could be pinned and welded.
It would be awesome to see someone go all out on this type of clone though.

I love these improvised HSLD clone threads.

Got a few parts in the mail.

Taper switch isn't surefire but it'll do. Not sure what to do with the excess cord though.

Nothing is bolted on. Just laying there. Still laying out all the holes as you can see by the tape.

And the grip isn't KAC. But it looked close and was half the price.

Go up closer to 1 o'clock to streamline the gun with the light.

Did anyone figure out what weaver rails match the curve of the Bushmaster tube?

Update: Holes drilled to access set screws on the FSB. Also drilled the hole to access the screw for adjustable gas in the JP block. Took a bit of drillpress wizardry but it turned out fairly nice.

Up next is mounting the weaver bases and then assembling it all with the collar and brake for the AEM5.


LRRP was right it was the weaver base for the rear of a model 70 action.



Yep I will do that. In the picture the light is just resting on the tube balanced to not fall off for a photo op.

Going to get the hardware to mount it today and itll be at the 1-1:30 area. Thanks!

Alright so I'm finally done assembling this thing. Went together pretty smoothly.

Still have to take it to the range to adjust the gas block and zero the Aimpoint. But all the pieces are there.

Ignore the rubberbands on the tape switch. I'll get some real tape on there soon. Also if anyone knows where to get a tape switch for a 6P that isn't as long as this one I'd love to know about it.

Pics:

Nice!

You think Sawman's was this same knurled FF tube? Really itching to copy Flyit and do a Sawman with my AEM5.

It looks like it could be a version of the knurled FF tube.

Plus that one doesn't have the FSB on it so its much less work. Go for it!

Very nice!

That's a post-M4A1 gun, basically one of the early "Recce" builds with the same purpose of an SPR.

You can tell by the fact that it has an M4 upper and PEQ-2.  PEQ-2 didn't come out until well after M4A1 introduction (original M4A1 with light profile barrel).  We were using PAQ-4C until early 2000s even, like on our M4/M203 combos.  Key leaders were first to get PEQ-2s, while everyone else had PAQ-4s.

I always wondered why we didn't have PEQ-2 capabilities inside something light and small like the PAQ-4.

That free float tube with the knurled midsection is the one I'm talking about though.  Bushmaster introduced a series around that time called the V-MATCH, which used what appeared to the same tube.

The Vmatch tube / rifle has been around since 1996 at least, when I got my first "Quality parts" catalog.....They also sold a cut down A2 upper that had a weaver rail bolted on, but I never bought one.

Bump!

Found this a while back, and though it relevant.

Not a a2, but basically the same setup with a m4, the ff tube, carry handle, and what im assuming is a eotech on it.
Im not sure where its from, tho with that mish mash setup, im guessing early Afghanistan?

https://imgur.com/a/aTJjkUS

Uploaded the photo for you.
Attached File

Thanks!
I just love the look of these. Its so dam janky and cobbled together looking, its fantastic.

I like.

I like alot.

Tagging for finished pics and partslist.

Tora bora!

Interesting points Augee.

Another thing to remember is that units that rated 723s and later 727s seemed to keep them well after  units that didn't rate "M-16A2 carbines" received "USGI" M4A1s.

Late 95, white side SF had replaced almost all their M-16A2s with M4A1s.. And fielding wise in SOF,they were often dead last to receive anything cool.

Early 98, still saw 727s in use with units that rated them, and carried 1911s. It was about a 50/50 mix of 727 and M4A1s.

There are STILL 727 lowers soldiering on (export marked carbine) in some HSLD units today...

I've been inspired. I hate when that happens because it just means more $$$, but it'll be fun in the process.

Would love more details on the FF tube you chose and how you notched it.

This pic gets me everytime. Something about the PSD guy says it all.

Won't see it for awhile while I live in Germany, but here is mine with the hard stuff done.. Work was done by John Thomas. I am undecided if I want to do a "CQB" rifle with an Aimpoint, or a DMR type with a 4x scope, so had him install both a bottom rail for a VFG, as well as a bipod stud. I figured the bipod stud would preclude the use of a bottom forward rail, so just did one at 3 and one at 9.

Donor upper / lower are a LEO Trade in Colt "Match target lightweight". Barrel and stock were from a Colt LEO 777 "parts kit". Handguard is a period "Bushmaster" "Vmatch". Rails are the Winchester model 70 "Weaver" rear mounts.

Pic isn't working

Man i forgot I started this thread.

Any how the tube is from Young MFG. ANd I used a cut off wheel and a dremel to make the holes. Drill press to make the holes to install FSB.

The other hole is to my adjustable gas block because with the can on this thing is way over gassed.

After I shot it I didn't even have to zero the used aimpoint, it was still dead on. Fun to shoot. Heavy as shit with the suppressor on though.

That looks awesome! What float tube did you use?