Wait, why would they have been coated and not just spray-painted? I might've missed that part of the discussion.

Well fuck. That's pretty disappointing for 200 yards with plinking ammo (nosler gray tips, h335--i think--not weighing every charge). They aren't even touching.

(The Holland with the BA tube did this)


20181008_095543 by Armed Ferret, on Flickr

Sadly the H doesn't seem to like anything 77ish.

Mod 1 (woa tube) likes the razor decently enuf.


20181008_134706 by Armed Ferret, on Flickr

And my woa varminter digs the PMC stuff.


20181008_134350 by Armed Ferret, on Flickr

We were discussing the early batch of SPRs that went to 5th Group with Kal-Gard's tan that was supposed to be early FDE but ended up orange-ish.

Since the pics show them partly coated, partly not coated, I was trying to provide what I could to USMC for his papered former "buggetnuster" owned upper. The pics aren't super clear of the grip and safety on Sara Jane, but at least one seems to show the selector didn't get the Kal-Gard. Plus, the pic we've all seen from Wikipedia that likely was one of that batch before the updated Vari-X was mounted on there (because note the 12 o'clock illum turret, basically means that scope was from 99 or 2000).

Been folloing this thread for a while now, and working on my MK12 Mod 1 build for over a year.
First post on here.

So far so good...
Just got the A1 Stock for it today :)

Still missing the Brake, the correct rear sight, A1 lower (I’m hoping the Brownells ones get imported into Canada), and the bipod is a cheapo one that I’ll replace with a Harris eventually. The scope I’ll do my best to at least find a 2.5-8 and get the turrets from the Leupold distributor here in Canada.

Tough finding all the correct parts up here in Canada.

@YThompson welcome!  helluva first post.  

if you're not familiar, get in touch with gothic line armoury.  They're in Calgary.  if it can be had, they can get it.  and if it can't yet, they'll bust their asses to make it able to be gotten.

Awesome! Thanks!
I’ll check them out for sure.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to show up here soon (just kidding, I know it will), but recently another legit TS30 popped up. And, something I hadn't realized or picked up on before:

It's a 2.5-8, and it was made in 2001




I think it was @Tamboi that was doing all the Leupold research a while back, so here was another curve I can't believe I didn't notice. So back around 2001 and before, Leupold DID have 2.5-8s in their other product lines per browsing some scans of their catalogs from 99-2001, I believe some of their other Vari-X offerings. So one of those must be where they started with the TS30.

We've seen the TS30 itself on Mod 1s, or possibly more accurately the SPR/A or SPR/B, since the Mk12 wasn't type classified until June 2002 per the 5.56 Timeline curated by Daniel E. Watters. Since he had access at that time to the contract stuff, I'll just quote him here:

"June:
Milestone B is approved for the SPR and its long range 5.56mm cartridge. The SPR is type-classified under the designations Rifle, Special Purpose Mk 12 Mod 0 and Mk 12 Mod 1. The Mk 12-series are designated marksman rifles built by NSWC-Crane armorers. The upper receiver is a mix of military and commercial parts, which is then mated to a M16A1 lower. The Mk 12 Mod 0 is recognizable primarily from its Precision Reflex, Inc. (PRI) free-float forearm. The Mk 12 Mod 1 use a KAC free-float RAS forearm. The Mod 1 evolved from the earlier SPR/A and SPR/B, which varied primarily as to which Leupold Vari-X III scope was mounted (3.5-10x versus 2.5-8x, respectively). The current Mk 12 Mod 1 reportedly uses a Leupold 3-9x."

So, let's tie that into the pics I had pulled from an old foreign (not sure if Japanese or Chinese) site, that probably do show the SPR/A and SPR/B:





And, from back in October of 2001 on that timeline:

"NSWC-Crane also issues a sole-source solicitation to Leupold for 130 2.5-8x36mm MilDot Rifle Scopes for use with the SPR."

Those should be the original TS30 scopes, as they were 2.5-8 Mildot and were produced in 2001, and that number roughly matches the number of OG SPRs built. It looks to me like the TS30 is really what they wanted for the SPR, but the 3.5-10 is what was available at the time, particularly when 9/11 happened and they needed the rifles up and ready for the October invasion.

So if we're going off the 5.56 Timeline's description, the SPR/A and SPR/B could have come around as early as late 2001, and for sure by early 2002. By June the program becomes the Mk12 SPR officially. Earlier in May is where the SPR was pulled out of SOMPOD and made a separate project. Here's some pics that certainly make me think these Mod 1s might actually have been the SPR/A or SPR/B, since later on the Mod 1 ditched the ARMS #36-S-EX rails which would have put the optics setup more closely to the Mod 0's eye relief:




But hey, there's also this pic I found, looks like an OG SPR with a TS-30. Very possible this pic was taken at Crane when the SPR/A and B had come about, or even just after the TS30s showed up in 2001:


Maybe it was thrown on there for testing, for the creation of a manual, or simply as a reference because it seems to have High #22 rings.

Something else to consider, is that while the 3.5-10 Leupold is what was selected for the original production SPRs, other optics had been tested before that, to include fixed 10x Leupolds, but more interestingly a funky little 1.5-6x42 Leupold based off of their 1.5-6 LPS was tested as well:


I have a feeling that while the 3.5-10 Leupold was probably picked as the best available at the time, they requested something shorter and lighter while retaining higher end magnification to better fit the SPR's intended role. I'm beginning to think that perhaps during the testing at Thunder Ranch in 2000 is where the request might have come up, perhaps even before. I'd be willing to bet that's part of what led to the original TS30, and why they showed up in late 2001 but weren't deployed in the initial batch of SPRs that were already in country or were already in SF Group hands. Thus, when the SPR/A and B came up, they had the TS30s available to test as well as the existing 3.5-10 Leupolds, ultimately selecting the TS30 for the primary SPR optic. But somewhere in there, it would seem that illumination was requested, so as the later now-dubbed Mk12 Mod 1s began mass production, Leupold came back with their 3-9x36 M3 Illum Mildot scopes. Then it gets muddy again about whether those were all TS30A1s, A2s, or just bought as-is to fill the SPR optic contract. There are definitely pics of 3-9x36 M3 illum scopes with TS30A2 markings, but there are also pics showing no markings at all.

Hell, this could even indicate that the SPR A/B were already in the works by September/October 2001. If some of you remember a few years back, I asked LtCol. Lutz formerly of KAC about the Mod 1, and he relayed that they were approached due to durability issues with the PRI handguards and inadequate supply of PRI parts to complete the rifles. I suppose it's possible that the testing had already revealed the weakness of the PRI handguard, so perhaps even before the first batches saw combat in Afghanistan, Crane was already approaching KAC? Who knows at this point, but I certainly plan to dig a bit further. I might even be able to dig up a contract or even get KAC to see if they can tell me when Crane bought the parts for the SPR A/B project.

Oh, and for the folks that still think Mod 1> Mod 0/OG SPR later on in August 2002, there was this interesting nugget:

"The M4A1 SOPMOD OCONUS Performance User Review and Special Purpose Rifle (SPR) Capabilities Upgrade Conference is held. The majority of users prefer the Mk 12 Mod 0 over the Mk 12 Mod 1 in part due to ergonomic reasons. In contrast, the SPR builders uniformly prefer the Mk 12 Mod 1 due to ease of construction. However, there are some disgruntled users, particularly in the SEAL community, who really wanted a lighter 16? barreled Recon/”Recce” carbine instead of a heavy, militarized match rifle."

LC,

Thanks for the great info!

How much are the Leupold Mk4 MR/T 2.5-8x36mm, M2 turrets marked “MK12 MOD1 5.56mm 77gr”, illuminated TMR reticle going for now a days?

a lot.

i haven't seen them offered new commercially, just on the military pricing sheet (and before you ask, anyone who buys stuff for people who aren't qualified risks tanking the whole program for everyone).  i've seen some used ones hither and yon in the "right around a thousand dollars" range, give or take a hundred or two either way.

Not anymore, market is ice cold on mk12s.  They're going for 900ish in pristine condition from what I've seen for a couple months now.

well fuck. appreciate the update.

NSFW- Language

https://youtu.be/O4TbOJ021No?t=334

Great info Lance, is that the scope that was listed on Rbay. Also oval or round mildots, theres a few tas30 running around that Ryan had which were made for the Corp.

Good find; never seen that one before.

Just got an email from John Brace saying that something unexpected has come up and he is no longer doing the engraving. Not sure whats going on; last time the turnaround was about a week, this time he had it over a month and all of a sudden this.

Just FYI for anyone who sent something to him or was considering it.

So now that he can't do my lower, who else does the engraving reprofiling?

I mentioned it before but it is very relevant to the content on this page - the 2.5-8x Leupold scope was important as a kit when combined with the PEQ-2/A and PRI rail.  The PRI rail was built with a PEQ-2/A direct mounting system up front (shown in one of the images above) and when the 2.5-8x is inline with the PRI mounted PEQ-2/A and you place the rear of the scope such that it clears the ARMS 40, the scope and PEQ-2/A end up with picture perfect clearance between them, allowing you to change out the AA cells in the laser but only just barely.

I suspect at their core the SPR/A vs. SPR/B (which again, were mostly just 3.5-10 vs. 2.5-8 scopes) were variants for night vs. day use.

If not that, I think it was variant A using the existing 3.5-10 they had used on the original SPRs, versus variant B with the now available TS30 to directly compare the two. But I think what you're illustrating is on point, because with the 3.5-10 those PEQ mounts are basically useless, however with the 1.5-6x42 or another more compact scope, like the 2.5-8 TS30, not only does the PEQ fit as you mentioned, but later on so would a PVS-22 which there are definitely pics of on Mod 0s.

I really do think that this was identified around that October 2000 testing at Thunder Ranch or a similar field test, but Leupold didn't have a 2.5-8 or 3-9 on hand that met their needs. There was a Vari-X III 2.5-8 Matte with Mildot available in 2001, perhaps it was also available back in 2000 but didn't quite meet their needs in terms of having the right turrets or "robustness". I don't have a 1999 or 2000 Mil/LE or commercial Leupold catalog to compare to, perhaps @Tamboi might have some leads as to what scope they might have based the TS30 off of?

Lance, I checked the 1999 and 2000 Leupold product catalogs. The vari-x iii 2.5-8x36 with one inch tube is listed in both catalogs. Theres a couple of pages in each catalog that shows the avialable MK4 scopes, Tactical scopes and long range scopes. Theres absolutely no scope in the catalog that even bears a resemblance to the ts30 2.5-8x36 you pictured above. A one off production run perhaps as a precusor for a future bigger order.

That’s a leupold LPS right?

n

The leupold lps 1.5-6x42 is on page 1 of the 1999 catalog as it was new product for that year. The vari-x iii 3.5-10x40 long range tactical with side focus parallax was new in the 1998 catalog, the illuminated version new for 2000, got to double check that.

If you're meaning that 1.5-6x42, yeah, but it was different from the commercially available one. The one they ran in the prototype testing apparently had like 1/8 MOA clicks on the turret. Mega-Unicorn status on those for sure because a handful were basically built for that test from what I hear.

Those ts30 are mega unicorn as well to some of us Lance. I will just have to settle for my 2004 mk4 3-9x36 and call it good. But my mk12 mod0 did recently get some accessories, guess i need to remember how to add pics

Oh I didn't buy it lol, and you're damn right they're unicorns, for SAM-R prototypes and those early Mod 1s with the ARMS #36 like the FDNY rifle.

I'll honestly be fine with a non-illum 2.5-8 filling in for a TS30 if I do an FDNY style Mod 1 some day.

Paging @lancecriminal86 and all other NSN/CAGE experts .

Anyone know the NSN on the wilcox nightforce ring for a docter? Have the Wilcox Part number, but want the NSN.

May have a lead one on or a few.

Can't say I've ever seen it but I can look around for it. Not seeing it anywhere on the WebFLIS or ArmyProperty. May not have been assigned an NSN.

Interesting! Glad I’m checking the right places!

If you dig something up, let me know! Same goes for anyone else. If you know the NSN, let me know.

There may be one of these in it for you, if it has one.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.  Even the 2.5-10x24 NF scope doesn't work as well as the TS30 (although it's pretty close) when mounted on the PRI rail in conjunction with a PEQ-2.  It will fit but changing the batteries on the PEQ-2 becomes a question of re-zeroing the laser or the scope since you almost need to remove one of the two.  There ends up being like 2-3 mm of eye relief wiggle room where you can fit the NF x24 scope and avoid hitting the stowed #40 sight AND still manage to swap the batteries on the PEQ-2.  It's more like 8-10 mm on the TS-30.  If you don't run a forward scope cap, things become a little more spacious.

Since we're talking about Mod 0 and H with PVS on them...

DUMP!

No love for the PVS-17A/B?



...or PAS-13G?

Needs paint!

I’ve got three cans of spray paint sitting and waiting, and was thinking about at least painting the receivers and stock.  We’ll have to see.

Hey just a quick PSA, I listed several MK12 specific clone scopes in the EE - Don't want to seem pushy or break any rules, but I know we are always looking for these so figured I would give a heads up...  Clearing out some stuff that just not getting any range time.  Will be listing a few MK12 uppers soon as well.

Several MK12 Clone Optics FS

I just posted a mod0 upper with nightforce in the EE,
Figured I would give you guys first dibs

Took these two out for a Match over the weekend, lots of fun, sadly no pics of me shooting (yet).

Man I appreciate the heads up!  I’ve been getting beat like a red headed step child when those TS30’s pop up on eBay.

Can you guys confirm that this is a clone correct barrel?

http://www.operationparts.com/douglas-5-56-stainless-steel-barrel-18-black-finish-1-7-twist/

I originally bought a white oak but the clone bug hit harder and I need to go clone correct.

Thanks!

What’s wrong with your White Oak?   I have the WOA and the PRI barrels.  Both are good to go and have the right stuff in the right spot!  

If the stainless bothers you then throw down some rattle can. I bought the rattle cans but cannot bring myself to use them.

No other reason than "clone correct". I'm sure I'm not a good enough shot to tell the difference...

Saw one went up in the EE earlier today

Colt MK12 upper

Lol

That is not a Mk12 upper

#chucktesta

gaaaaayyyyyy!!!!

That's the barrel I have, I think mine may be a 1/8 twist. I got it in 2003 so who knows.

Hahaha.

Here's another option. Legit source.

Centurion Arms MK12