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Posted: 1/15/2021 7:14:56 AM EST
New Russian 7,62x54R armor piercing.  Don't even bother asking if I have extras, already gone.  Extremely rare and expensive.  
7H13 (PP) with hardened steel core and purple neck/ red primer  
7H26 (BP) with hardened steel core and both red neck and primer sealant
7H37 with tungsten carbide core and both black neck/ primer.  
And the core is heavy at 7.3g (M993 has 5.91g, and RUAG P/T/308 at 5.59g)
No tip colors, goes by primer/ neck sealant colors and dates.  
Questions are welcome, thanks for looking
wolfganggross

Link Posted: 1/15/2021 8:27:54 AM EST
Interesting. In regular use in Russia these days?

I know these are used in PKMs and SVDs and other combloc weapons successfully but has the rimmed cartridge ever been an issue for reliable use?
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 8:28:03 AM EST
At the base of the 7H37 (tungsten core), what is the dark matter below the core?  Is it lead?  Is it a tracer pellet?  Also:  is there an empty gap ahead of the core?
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 8:29:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2021 8:33:43 AM EST by Dominion21]
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Originally Posted By dedreckon:
Interesting. In regular use in Russia these days?

I know these are used in PKMs and SVDs and other combloc weapons successfully but has the rimmed cartridge ever been an issue for reliable use?
View Quote



The PKM is reliable and in use all over the globe - particularly in Africa, the ME, Asia; in current combat in Yemen and Ukraine , etc.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 9:38:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Dominion21:
At the base of the 7H37 (tungsten core), what is the dark matter below the core?  Is it lead?  Is it a tracer pellet?  Also:  is there an empty gap ahead of the core?
View Quote



Thats lead at the base. (M993, MEN use aluminum)  and has an empty space at the tip.    
Over at the IAA forum, there is a French AP bullet that has a brass "Pusher Cup" that surrounds the core.  

There is a theory in AP that at the moment of impact, the core breaks up from the rear - forward.  
By using a pusher cup material of higher tensile strength should hold the core together longer during impact.

Extra picture for reference.
 

Link Posted: 1/15/2021 10:02:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By dedreckon:  Interesting. In regular use in Russia these days?

I know these are used in PKMs and SVDs and other combloc weapons successfully but has the rimmed cartridge ever been an issue for reliable use?
View Quote


PKM is often cited as the best available GPMG these days.  The Brits ran .303 out of 30 round mags on the BREN.  Soviets went w/ a pan mag on the DP; Lewis used a rather complex mag on the Lewis.

OP, thank you for posting these.  You've gone to a lot of trouble over the years to section cases, take beautiful photos, & post em.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 11:47:37 AM EST
FWIW,  the lead surrounding the core is a cushion to allow the rifling to engrave the jacket when fired. The pusher cups of other designs perform the same function in addition to the role  described above.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 4:46:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


PKM is often cited as the best available GPMG these days.  The Brits ran .303 out of 30 round mags on the BREN.  Soviets went w/ a pan mag on the DP; Lewis used a rather complex mag on the Lewis.

OP, thank you for posting these.  You've gone to a lot of trouble over the years to section cases, take beautiful photos, & post em.
View Quote


yep, that is why I asked, wondered what challenges rimmed cartriges have if any -- I know, off topic I should start my own.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 8:34:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dedreckon:  yep, that is why I asked, wondered what challenges rimmed cartriges have if any -- I know, off topic I should start my own.
View Quote


Lots, but they worked quite well w/ cloth belts, b/c the gun had to pull the cartridge out of the belt anyway.  So if you design a disintegrating belt around the cartridge, no issues.  Big magazines is where things get dicey - and notably the Soviets went rimless w/ the 7.62x39mm.  Look @ the hoops Kel-Tec has gone to w/ their 30 rnd .22 LR & WMR mags.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 10:26:07 PM EST
I wonder what the velocity of the tungsten core version is?
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 11:20:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 6:28:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2021 6:29:47 AM EST by wolfganggross]
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Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
I wonder what the velocity of the tungsten core version is?
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Very little info out there on this round. (Except from video game "Escape from Tarkov", who states the velocity is 785 m/s)

Never found the real velocity, but the mass of the 7h37 core is 11.7-11.9g.   Andrii Donets states that it will penetrate 10mm of 2P (500HB) steel plate at 500m
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 8:09:27 AM EST
Great pics as always
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 8:21:41 AM EST
Great pictures, thanks. Now I have to take my Mosin to the range next trip. Shooting it is a blast, cleaning after, not so much.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 2:40:59 PM EST
Here are a few I sectioned about ten years ago. Going old-school, these are some of the predecessors to the newer generation of 7.62x54r AP types.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 4:00:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


PKM is often cited as the best available GPMG these days.  The Brits ran .303 out of 30 round mags on the BREN.  Soviets went w/ a pan mag on the DP; Lewis used a rather complex mag on the Lewis.

OP, thank you for posting these.  You've gone to a lot of trouble over the years to section cases, take beautiful photos, & post em.
View Quote

I would vote for the KAC LMG, myself.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 10:57:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:  I would vote for the KAC LMG, myself.
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Is anyone using it?
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 11:22:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


Is anyone using it?
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:  I would vote for the KAC LMG, myself.


Is anyone using it?

Yes
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 11:42:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:  Yes
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Besides Special Ops, who?
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 4:55:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
New Russian 7,62x54R armor piercing.  Don't even bother asking if I have extras, already gone.  Extremely rare and expensive.  
7H13 (PP) with hardened steel core and purple neck/ red primer  
7H26 (BP) with hardened steel core and both red neck and primer sealant
7H37 with tungsten carbide core and both black neck/ primer.  
And the core is heavy at 7.3g (M993 has 5.91g, and RUAG P/T/308 at 5.59g)
No tip colors, goes by primer/ neck sealant colors and dates.  
Questions are welcome, thanks for looking
wolfganggross

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/244346/7N37yugoAPI011321_011_JPG-1779857.jpg
View Quote


Wonderful cutaways.

What is the core weight and length of the 7H26?

I'm curious to how it compares to M2AP, and whether we'd expect it to be more penetrative:
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 9:29:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2021 9:30:30 PM EST by 1Devildog]
7.62x54r AP ( actually B-32 API ) has better penetration than M2 AP due to higher MV, IIRC. Back when we had a lot of troops in hard body armor ( proofed against M2 AP ) in Iraq there were cases where it was being defeated. It was determined to be the result of being hit by B-32. I would expect the newer generation of 54r AP to also outperform M2 AP.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 11:28:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1Devildog:
7.62x54r AP ( actually B-32 API ) has better penetration than M2 AP due to higher MV, IIRC. Back when we had a lot of troops in hard body armor ( proofed against M2 AP ) in Iraq there were cases where it was being defeated. It was determined to be the result of being hit by B-32. I would expect the newer generation of 54r AP to also outperform M2 AP.
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Whats the weight of the b32 api projectile?  Anyone have a cutaway of it?
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 6:55:15 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Glock63:

Whats the weight of the b32 api projectile?  Anyone have a cutaway of it?
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7N(H)13 and 7H26 have the same bullet but from 2 different companies at 2 different times.  Bullet is 9.4g at 820m/s.  Has a mass of 9.8 and penetrates 10mm armor plate (2p500HB) at 20m

Pic of X39 and x54R API.  There is both old school B32 and Modernized B32M ( Incendiary in the rear) represented

Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:08:19 AM EST
I recall the B-32M had incendiary in the front and rear when I sectioned one. I can't find my pics to verify this though.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 5:09:42 PM EST
Much of this stuff on the commercial market, or just samples seived from foreign military stockpiles, etc.?

Looks like an interesting design

Good to see an old cartridge being brought up to date
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:48:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1Devildog:
7.62x54r AP ( actually B-32 API ) has better penetration than M2 AP due to higher MV, IIRC. Back when we had a lot of troops in hard body armor ( proofed against M2 AP ) in Iraq there were cases where it was being defeated. It was determined to be the result of being hit by B-32. I would expect the newer generation of 54r AP to also outperform M2 AP.
View Quote
ESAPI current rev is rated at 3 hits of M2-AP with the first shot being 3000 fps. I don't think there's any B32-API hitting that.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 5:36:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 5:39:10 AM EST by 1Devildog]
MV for M2 AP is around 2700 fps. Where are you getting 3000 fps M2 AP data? M2 AP projectile loaded in .300 Win Mag?

IIRC when this subject came up the B-32 was stated something like 100-150 FPS faster which was apparently enough to defeat the early issue ESAPI on occasion.

I wish I could find the report/article where I read about it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:48:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 10:49:17 PM EST by Glock63]
I've pushed m2 past 3300 fps in a .300 Win.  Dont think there's much out there that will withstand that.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 11:44:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 11:49:46 PM EST by Buffman_LT1]
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Originally Posted By Glock63:
I've pushed m2 past 3300 fps in a .300 Win.  Dont think there's much out there that will withstand that.
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Almost all level IV alumina plates will stop that at 45ft :D
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 11:48:02 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1Devildog:
MV for M2 AP is around 2700 fps. Where are you getting 3000 fps M2 AP data? M2 AP projectile loaded in .300 Win Mag?

IIRC when this subject came up the B-32 was stated something like 100-150 FPS faster which was apparently enough to defeat the early issue ESAPI on occasion.

I wish I could find the report/article where I read about it.
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Originally Posted By 1Devildog:
MV for M2 AP is around 2700 fps. Where are you getting 3000 fps M2 AP data? M2 AP projectile loaded in .300 Win Mag?

IIRC when this subject came up the B-32 was stated something like 100-150 FPS faster which was apparently enough to defeat the early issue ESAPI on occasion.

I wish I could find the report/article where I read about it.
MV for M2AP for armor testing is 2880 fps NIJ, and current ESAPI is 2850 and the first shot is 3000 fps. They use universal receiver and can achieve much higher velocities than your grandpa's M1 Garand :D

Armor Rating
3 shots of 166-grain (10.8 g) .30-06 M2 AP armor-piercing bullets at a velocity of 2,850-foot-per-second (870 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0) and 3,000-foot-per-second (910 m/s) (V50 - first shot only).

Link Posted: 1/20/2021 12:04:18 AM EST
Buffman, what are the standards for the XSAPI plates?
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 12:19:25 AM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Buffman, what are the standards for the XSAPI plates?
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Buffman, what are the standards for the XSAPI plates?


6 shots of 147-grain (9.5 g) 7.62×51mm M80 ball bullets at a velocity of 2,750-foot-per-second (840 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0).
6 shots of 147-grain (9.5 g) 7.62×54mmR LPS steel-core FMJ bullets at a velocity of 2,750-foot-per-second (840 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0).
6 shots of 114-grain (7.4 g) 7.62×39mm 57-BZ-231 (BZ API) armor-piercing incendiary bullets at a velocity of 2,400-foot-per-second (730 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0).
3 shots of 166-grain (10.8 g) .30-06 M2 AP armor-piercing bullets at a velocity of 2,850-foot-per-second (870 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0) and 3,000-foot-per-second (910 m/s) (V50 - first shot only).
3 shots of 151-grain (9.8 g) 7.62×54mmR 7N1 "Sniper" steel-core bullets at a velocity of 2,700-foot-per-second (820 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0).
3 shots of 129-grain (8.4 g) 7.62×51mm M993 AP bullets at a velocity of 3,050-foot-per-second (930 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0) and 3,200-foot-per-second (980 m/s) (V50 - first shot only).[23][25]
3 shots of 52-grain (3.4 g) 5.56×45mm M995 AP bullets at a velocity of 3,350-foot-per-second (1,020 m/s)+50-foot-per-second (15 m/s) (V0).[26]




Link Posted: 1/20/2021 9:20:53 AM EST
Cheers.  That's some pretty decent ceramic.
Link Posted: Yesterday 11:41:00 PM EST
Very cool info and photos.  Thank you for posting.  This might be a silly question but are these projectiles available in the market place at all or is the supply limited to a small handful in the hands of collectors?
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