It all works. The round does make some difference, but not what many think.
The rifle was designed as a mid range battle rifle. Under 400 meters, and perhaps out to 600 with certain ammo. Will it do anything for terminal performance out there? Crap shoot at best.
Keep it in the 300 meter area and run like the wind.

Like is said, my idea of an all around round is light barrier penetration, reliable expansion or fragmentation out to about 250 for hunting (further is nice but not necessary), and decently accurate. It doesn’t have to be match accurate.

I have a few boxes of the 77tmk and 75 gold dot. I will be taking these out tot the range this weekend. If both give decent accuracy I will likely go with the 75 gold dot. These are being shot out of 14.5, 16, and 20 inch barrels. I think the gold dot will check all the boxes I am looking for as long as my barrels like them.

Both are great choices, I think this thread has done a good job of summing them both up. I love both.

Gold Dot: less destructive on tissue, better penetration, less velocity and lower BC translating with (a bit) less effective range, pretty precise (bit over MOA for me), about half the price of TMK

TMK: more destructive on tissue, less penetration, more velocity and higher BC with (a bit) more effective range, more precise, twice as expensive as gold dots.

Based on what you want, I think the Gold Dot will be the better pick for you. I wouldn’t feel married to the 75gr necessarily either. I like it, but as a general rule I like heavy bullets for caliber. The other lighter weights, and the Fusion MSR will give more initial velocity and may be the better pick for shorter to intermediate range in which the lower BC is more than offset by the higher velocity.

I mostly like the 75gr because it shoots about to the same POI as the Hornady Steel 75’s I use. I’ve had great luck pairing the less accurate Hornady Steel 75’s for practice with the less accurate Gold Dot 75’s for killing stuff in my more ‘duty oriented’ rifles, and the more accurate 77SMK for practice and more accurate  77TMK for killing stuff in my more ‘precision oriented’ rifles. Both pairings match the role of their rifles and share pretty darn similar POIs, at least for me.

M193

Good to know... I'm going to the range Tomorrow. I'm going to sight in 50 yard zero with 77TMK for hunting out of my 16" gun, and shoot MSR to get a POI shift out to 100 Yards for my records. Ill also be Zeroing my Red dot on my 10.5" Pistol with 62 MSR. My local range has steel setup out to 300 as well so I will see if minute of man is acceptable with BS AE ammo after I zero with the good stuff.

Heavy OTM's only drawback is they aren't the best barrier bullet. M193's wound cavities are well known to be inconsistent at best and 55 fmj cannot handle wind very well. Yes 55gr fmj can fly 600 yards, but how often will you hit a man sized silhouette target at 600? I know I can hit a man sized target every shot at 600 with a 75gr OTM BTHP or a 77 SMK.  Heavy OTMs with a high BC will retain more velocity and energy at 600 than m193.

I think m193 or something like Wolf Gold has a place, I have lots of both. For an all around cartridge, I want one that can has consistent would cavities and has hunting large game potential. Most bad guys in the civilian world do not wear body armor and I don't plan on shooting through car engines. I am find with the light barrier penetration of heavy OTMs.

As I asked in the other thread. If M193 is so good, why doesn't any major military use it for deployment?

The 75gr gold dots, are probably a very good choice. The 64 grains as well.

Even though the 77gr TMK is not technically barrier blind, it still performs well after penetrating light barriers

https://youtu.be/lihq_U-2BKM

Heavy grain OTMs have a few draw backs.  It is a good round for distance, but the lower velocity means it won't penetrate steel very well.  Lots of mild / soft steel around in components, obstacles, and building materials since we live in a modern industrial society.  Any round that relies on fragmentation for terminal performance can be inconsistent, so I don't think that's a point in OTM's favor, or against M193.  Every gel test I've seen M193 has fragmented, and it has a great reputation in the field for being a stopper.  M855 is another story, but no one is talking about that.  Also, low velocity gets lower in the cold for those who live in cold weather climates.  Loosing an extra 100 FPS off an already slower round exasperates all of the above issues.

The other draw back to OTM is that not everyone's rifle can shoot it.  Some people have 1-12 and 1-9 twist barrels.  Another reason why I like M193, every single AR type rifle can fire it regardless of twist.  Maybe all of your rifles are 1-7 twist, but what if SHTF and your neighbor Bob comes over with his 1-9 carbine (or worse 1-12 rifle)?  Also, as mentioned above cold weather magnifies stabilization issues, which is why the AR15 went from 1-14 to 1-12 twist.  55 grain FMJ is just more versatile a bullet length.

Again, you talk about 600 yard shots.  In some parts of the country, you'll never have a shot that far.  I'd be more concerned with performance on targets and through likely potential obstacles at 200 yards and under, which is where the vast majority of your engagements are likely to take place.  The likely potential use of your rifle.  Again, heavy OTMs are great for distance on unobstructed shots if you foresee a need for that, I personally don't really, and M193 is more than enough to reach out and touch someone at those ranges anyway.  There are a few youtube videos with people shooting M193 from a 16" carbine and hitting targets over 800 yards away.  You don't need to be able to "hit a man sized target everytime" as in the field you aren't going to be shooting at stationary head on silhouettes.  Nor will you as the shooter be in an ideal shooting position (comfortably proned out on a matt).  You need a round that is accurate enough to be dangerous.

Do you think you're heavy OTM can do this at 200 yards?  I don't think it would penetrate the steel at that range like M193 did.

M855 can do that too (also from a 16" barrel)

https://youtu.be/B0gIvaw_dPY

5.56mm rounds in general get better barrier penetration at distance than they do close-up.  iirc, optimal penetration is at 150m from a 16" barrel and 200m from a 20".  This is because the rounds have had time to slow down and stabilize enough where they will not yaw/fragment when they hit and can retain their mass

Yes indeed it can, M855 is still a decently fast round and it does also have the steel penetrater.  
Now again, can 77 grain OTM do that?  Or the 62 / 75 grain fusion rounds?  I don't think they can.

You're right about the distance and penetration but speed defeats steel, and even though a 5.56 round like M193's bullet is not optimally stabilized at under 150 yards, it is going so much faster at that closer range that it will go right through that same steel anyway because of its velocity.

tnoutdoors said that he was going to do a similar 200yd test of Mk262 mod1 but he retired from youtube before doing it

That's quite unfortunate.  Maybe he can be baited out of retirement just for that test?  

Personally, with such a velocity difference (and the OT design), I don't see it going through.  Same with the fusion rounds for the same reasons (velocity and SP tip design).

even with M855, the spec calls for it to penetrate 1/8" mild steel plate @ 600m when it would be moving at only about 1600fps.  I think we might be under estimating Mk262 but it'll take actually tests to know for sure

Jack of all trades loadings should probably have cost as a primary concern.  of course the heavier bullets do better at long range, but for most things that we actually use AR's for, most of the time, 193 works pretty nice.

If i was rich, i would stack 262 deep, but i'm not.

CBC 77gr 262 clone can be found for $0.55cpr. half the price of real MK262. Still more expensive than m193, but better in every way.

I stack up Wolf Gold 55gr deep for most shooting because of price, but shoot heavy OTMs for any serious shooting. A jack of all trades doesn't meant you MUST shoot it every pull of the trigger. It is nice to have it when you need it.

Is penetration of steel, shooting through engines, etc. really needed for the civilian market? If you want to for fun, have at it. We should be able to if we want to, but it seems like a silly need, IMO.

M193 hitting targets at 800 yards. Sure it can. 36 inch F class target. Didnt Mikulec hit a target at 1000 yards with a 22lr?

Just like the other thread, this argument is boring. M193 is good ammo for what it is and its cost. It definitely has a place in our community, but there are lots of better options.

77 OTM is hardly better in every way as I already addressed how it is inferior in several.  And needs during SHTF will vary from self defense.  Do you really need an AR for home defense?

Everything has a trade off. Any round is a ‘jack of all trades’ round, but will excel at certain aspects than other rounds. And visa versa

You need to ask in order
1) what do I need this round to do
2) what do I want this round to do
3) what will I sacrifice to make it happen

For example
1) I need awesome ballistics for hd
2) I want expansion at 200 yards for hunting
3) I do not need barrier blind

Or
1) I need barrier blind
2) I want awesome ballistics
3) I do not need reliable expansion/fragmentation past 100 yards

Same questions but will leave you with a different answer for covering your ‘bases’

My hd ammo looked like this
1) I need awesome ballistics
2) I want something that preformes well in short barrels
3) does not need to be cheap
And chose to go with hornady 75gr interlock sbr ammo

My Recce looked like this
1) need accuracy
2) want affordable price
3) does not need awesome ballistics

EDIT***
Basically you’re thinking about this too hard. Just think about what you expect this rifle to ACTUALLY to be able to do and plug a round in that works.

I think it's better in ways that matter:

easily twice as accurate/precise
yaws/fragments more constantly than M193/M855
fragments out to a longer distance than M193 (170yds vs 105yds from a 16" barrel)

First of all, M193 will fragment consistently out to 150 yards from a 16" barrel under normal operating temperature, and I already posted the proof of this (actual gel tests shot out to 150 yards).

Being able to be fired from everyone's rifle is far more important than some dubious accuracy and fragmentation gains that won't even be noticed, or make a different, in real combat.

Same with barrier penetration, far more important to be able to shoot through things than to maybe be able to hit a stationary target a little easier at 600 yards under ideal non combat range conditions.

Need? I hope not. My first line? You bet your sweet bippy.
One grab, 30 rounds, 60 if I happen to pick up a second mag. Capable of penetrating all but the very high end body armor ( I really have no expectation of this being a problem, but playing along), lethal round, easy to shoot, aim, and the intimidation factor , if missed, for the BG is OTT.
People like pistols. You have ~15(on a good day) rounds of some of the poorest performing firearm around. We like them because they are better than nothing.
A lot of advantage to a rifle.

I keep two full loadouts of xm556sbct3 ready at all times. My backup and practice ammo is xm193. POA/POI is 1/4 left at 50 yds between the two.

I was going off of these charts made by a couple of distinguished ARFCOM members back in the day. iirc they used 2700fps instead of 2600 for M193 and M855 because fragmentation was more consistent at that number





Velocities were at 55 degrees

Ok, charts vs. REAL results on gel at real distances.

Those charts are proven false.  And 2,600 is a more realistic number.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest1/Test1.html

Lol...B&T is who made the charts I posted. Brouhaha and Tatjyana (I totally spelled that wrong).  Maybe that charts came before the gel tests?

Also, the velocities on the chart were at 55 degrees and the gel tests you posted were at 87 degrees

That ballistics chart is wrong on so many levels, the velocity and elevation drop offs are wrong and way off compared to an accurate calculator like Federal's ballistic calculator.

And 2,600 FPS is still 2,600 FPS.

From the gel tests I've seen, I think M193 is effective out to 2,500 FPS.

Meh.  I've had M193 icepick at 3000fps+.

For me, a jack of all trades balances price, accuracy, reliability, terminal and barrier performance.  62/64gr gold dot/fusion does all of that.  For you guys touting heavy OTMs, I switched from T2Tap, which I've also had fail.

Never had a Gold Dot let me down.

not worth it. Time for a new list member.

Federal Fusion MSR 62gr.

Very good performer on deer.

2775fps out of a 1/7 CL 16" barrel.

Depends on which OTM we're talking about. I think the 62gr Mk318 is designed to be barrier blind having a copper penetrator/core. The 77gr SMK/TMK has a different purpose. Personally, I think the best "do anything" round is the FBIT3

Are we talking about civilian engagements?  Yes?  Then why are you guys arguing about 150 yards this, 600 yards that?  That’s a ticket to jail. Not self defense. Realistic?  Under 100. Probably under 50

If not talking civi carry on

For me, it's MK262 (I have IMI, CBC, and a few boxes of BH). It does most things well: accurate, terminal performance, some barrier pen... It's just a general purpose do-all for me. Mostly for accuracy and most of my guns will shoot it around 1.5moa.

I also have lots of XM193. Most of my loaded "ready" mags have 62 Fusion MSR but it's too expensive to get by the case and accuracy is over 1.5moa. I also have Gold Dot (55, 62, and 64) and they are excellent also. And some MK318 because it's great terminally and barriers but accuracy can be inconsistent (typically around 2.5moa with the occasional flier opening it up to 3.5moa).

for an all around, do whatever load,its tough to beat the Federal Fusion IMHO.

I load 62-64 grain TBBC, FUSION and Gold Dots to 5.56 velocities and am very comfortable with those as my do it all rounds.

If you don't handload, the slower factory stuff should work pretty well.

For a budget option, what about a 55gr soft point round like Hornady's?

Should have similar ballistics to M193 and perform well terminally inside 300yds or so.

I wish someone would load up some fusion or harder lead soft points up to M193 velocity specs.  However, as far as I know, no one does.  Hornady's SP supposedly has lack luster penetration in gel too.



Fiocchi's 55 grain SP seems pretty decent.  I don't like the large exposed lead tip though.

With Gold Dots available as components... For a reloader that may be a good option for an accurate bullet that has good terminal performance

I am messing with the PPU 75 gr. It has great terminal effects and seems to fly well out of one of my rifles. I'm going to see how well it runs out of my others. In my rifle the accuracy fell between the Frontier 75 and 75 match. The price has been good from what ive seen lately. The 77 SMK just doesn't run as well for me. 2" vertical strings.

It also matches ballistically to the Hornady for interchanging without adjusting zero.

True. I get a kick in the ass for forgetting the topic.

You all are forgetting the 2nd part of the jack of all trades saying.  "Jack of all trades, master of none." Any round that does ok in all desired aspects isn't going to excel in all of them.

It sounds like what people here want is a jack of all trades, master of all, which just doesn't exist

M855A1 is pretty close!

The TMK's should be effective significantly further out with similar disruption velocities and far higher BC's.

That said, I settled on the 75gr Gold Dot and 70gr GMX. I'm still evaluating how they compare. Both have a similar real-world calculated BC, and both seem to be opening up similarly at similar low end of the velocity spectrum, while the Gold Dot holds up better past 2700fps impact (a moot point, really...)

Your 62gr MSR isn't moving anywhere near 1900 at 300 yards is my bet.

Per the Strelok Pro app, it should be around 1890 fps.

Strelok is only as good as the data it gets, so unless you've doped a round and know its actual BC, it's very suspect. I don't have real data on 62gr GDSP, but I do have it for 75 GDSP, and its FAR from published data.

Good far (faster) or bad(slower)?  What length barrel?

Barrel length won't really affect BC, but gold dot has been running 25-30% lower real world BC than published across multiple calibers.