User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/24/2020 3:55:43 PM EDT
[#1]
When I measured mine with carbine tube to end of barrel sans A2 flash suppressor it was just shy of the ability to become a firearm with the addition of a vertical grip.....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2020 4:07:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: An AR15 pistol with a brace and an 11.5" barrel. ..........is it legally a pistol or is it legally a firearm? Federal law says pistol. But add a second grip and it becomes a "firearm" if over 26"OAL, if under 26" you made an AOW. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2020 4:08:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I measured mine with carbine tube to end of barrel sans A2 flash suppressor it was just shy of firearm..... Pistols have no minimum or maximum OAL or barrel length. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2020 5:05:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I measured mine with carbine tube to end of barrel sans A2 flash suppressor it was just shy of firearm..... Is the proper way to measure without the brace? Would p&w muzzle device make it a firearm? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2020 6:09:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the proper way to measure without the brace? Would p&w muzzle device make it a firearm? No, read what I wrote above.  What makes it a "firearm" and not a "pistol" is the addition of the second vertical grip and an overall length of more than 26". You can measure a pistol any way you want and its still a pistol. A "firearm" would be measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the muzzle or any permanently attached muzzle device. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2020 9:38:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Normal carbine buffer and an 11.5" barrel usually means an OAL just a pube under 26 inches. So that would be a pistol.
Add an 90 degree VFG to that and you are going to jail. Add an angled VFG and you are GTG. Move the barrel to 12.5" and you usually push your OAL over 26 inches. At that point you can add a 90 degree VFG and your pistol becomes a non-NFA AOW ("Other). Move the barrel to 16", and you are clearly over 26 inches. You can keep your 90 degree VFG, and pistol becomes a non-NFA firearm. I might have the non-NFA firearm and non-NFA AOW terms backwards. It gets pretty confusing. ETA - Forget what I said. I "think" an AOW has to always be under 26 inches. The law is clear as mud here. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2020 11:23:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, read what I wrote above. What makes it a "firearm" and not a "pistol" is the addition of the second vertical grip and an overall length of more than 26". You can measure a pistol any way you want and its still a pistol. A "firearm" would be measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the muzzle or any permanently attached muzzle device. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is the proper way to measure without the brace? Would p&w muzzle device make it a firearm? No, read what I wrote above. What makes it a "firearm" and not a "pistol" is the addition of the second vertical grip and an overall length of more than 26". You can measure a pistol any way you want and its still a pistol. A "firearm" would be measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the muzzle or any permanently attached muzzle device. Tom is correct. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 12:58:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pistols have no minimum or maximum OAL or barrel length. You are 100% correct, given the way his question was asked I just assumed he was going after a vertical grip. Being that I was a bit busy I didn't spend a lot of time with response.... I have edited my post above. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 1:01:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the proper way to measure without the brace? Would p&w muzzle device make it a firearm? It's still a pistol, however a p/w will put you over 26" and will allow you to put a vert grip on it, then it would become a firearm. Take it back off and it becomes a pistol again. Measurements from end of barrel to end of tube. Pinned attachments would be considered in overall length. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 1:16:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .... At that point you can add a 90 degree VFG and your pistol becomes a non-NFA AOW ("Other). Move the barrel to 16", and you are clearly over 26 inches. You can keep your 90 degree VFG, and pistol becomes a non-NFA firearm. I might have the non-NFA firearm and non-NFA AOW terms backwards. It gets pretty confusing. Quote HistoryQuoted: .... At that point you can add a 90 degree VFG and your pistol becomes a non-NFA AOW ("Other). Move the barrel to 16", and you are clearly over 26 inches. You can keep your 90 degree VFG, and pistol becomes a non-NFA firearm. I might have the non-NFA firearm and non-NFA AOW terms backwards. It gets pretty confusing. There is no such thing as a non NFA AOW, as AOW is only a category of NFA firearm. Any Other Weapon or "AOW" is different than "Firearm". While both would be recorded on the 4473 as "Other Firearm" for Que.24 (catagory of firearm), thats only because they aren't the other two choices....Handgun or Long Gun. All Title II or NFA firearms (MG, Silencer, SBS, SBR, DD, AOW) are "Other firearm", as are many Title I firearms such as AR lowers, frames, receivers and any other firearm that is neither a handgun or long guns such as firearms with a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell. ETA - Forget what I said. I "think" an AOW has to always be under 26 inches. The law is clear as mud here. Not always. While ATF considers a 26" OAL firearm as not concealable, if you actually do conceal it on your person.....AOW. ATF Determination Letter on the Mossberg Shockwave |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 1:17:54 PM EDT
[#11]
If just shy of 26, one could also use an A5-buffer tube to exceed the magic number as well.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 6:45:32 PM EDT
[#12]
It's a GUN. We need to stop caring about all this nonsense.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 7:48:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a GUN. Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a GUN. No kidding? We need to stop caring about all this nonsense. I will when ATF does. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 7:57:28 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: An AR15 pistol with a brace and an 11.5" barrel. ..........is it legally a pistol or is it legally a firearm? Pistol |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 7:57:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I measured mine with carbine tube to end of barrel sans A2 flash suppressor it was just shy of the ability to become a firearm with the addition of a vertical grip..... Measurement doesn't matter at all. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 8:00:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the proper way to measure without the brace? Would p&w muzzle device make it a firearm? End of the receiver extension to end of muzzle with any non permanent muzzle device removed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 8:01:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, read what I wrote above. What makes it a "firearm" and not a "pistol" is the addition of the second vertical grip and an overall length of more than 26". You can measure a pistol any way you want and its still a pistol. A "firearm" would be measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the muzzle or any permanently attached muzzle device. Correct It's not a firearm until it no longer meets another definition in the NFA/GCA. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 8:03:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Normal carbine buffer and an 11.5" barrel usually means an OAL just a pube under 26 inches. So that would be a pistol. Just a pube over 26 inches it's still a pistol. 10" under or over 26", it's still a pistol. Put a 20" upper on it, it's still a pistol, until it's not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 8:05:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not always. While ATF considers a 26" OAL firearm as not concealable, if you actually do conceal it on your person.....AOW. ATF Determination Letter on the Mossberg Shockwave But...how can I conceal a firearm that is not concealable? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/25/2020 9:30:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But...how can I conceal a firearm that is not concealable? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/29/2020 12:51:27 AM EDT
[#21]
Thanks for the clarification gentlemen.
P&W flash hider and a vertical grip with a brace and an 11.5" barrel. Not too much trouble. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/16/2021 10:09:52 PM EDT
[#22]
And then there is a " other " firearm besides AOF, I think that what I have. I bought a radical pistol with a 13" barrel. Not really to sure about all these different categories. But that's what ppl in NJ are trying to find because it falls in thier parameters.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
