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Posted: 9/30/2020 11:45:13 AM EDT
[#1]
Just got mine today and installed in a jig. I noticed the two disconnectors where not equal length on the "nose hook" of the top engagement area, the binary on was shorter (not sure if this is normal is any of yours like this?).
The trigger works well firing on semi but on binary the release 2nd shot on release is so short since the disconnector is shorter that I am unsure if I will be able to flip it back to semi so as not to release the second shot using my firing hand like I can my Franklin trigger when flipping the safety. I barely start letting pressure off when holding the trigger back and it releases, I'll have to make some time to field test it. |
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Posted: 9/30/2020 4:56:05 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just got mine today and installed in a jig. I noticed the two disconnectors where not equal length on the "nose hook" of the top engagement area, the binary on was shorter (not sure if this is normal is any of yours like this?). The trigger works well firing on semi but on binary the release 2nd shot on release is so short since the disconnector is shorter that I am unsure if I will be able to flip it back to semi so as not to release the second shot using my firing hand like I can my Franklin trigger when flipping the safety. I barely start letting pressure off when holding the trigger back and it releases, I'll have to make some time to field test it. I think it's meant to be this way, however the hammer doesn't interact with that part of the disconnector. Both of mine came that way. I think it's like this by design. |
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Posted: 9/30/2020 6:09:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it's meant to be this way, however the hammer doesn't interact with that part of the disconnector. Both of mine came that way. I think it's like this by design.  thumbnail_IMG_7256 by Stuart Boyer, on Flickrhttps://youtu.be/CyeF9i59_P0 |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 7:31:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has anyone tried these in an MPX yet? Will the stock anvil fit with this trigger? Just for shits and giggles, I tried the ITF trigger with the factory MPX hammer in a jig. It worked perfect, however the trigger bridge with have to be relieved a little to allow the 2 disconnectors instead of one. I plan on milling a relief cut on the bridge, however my mill vise is occupied with another project and I don't want to tear it down. Hopefully next week I can get it done and report back. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 12:21:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Just noticed after trying the JP spring that occasionally in binary mode the trigger would rest on release like its in semi mode instead of firing. Switched the springs back and noticed its now doing it even with the provided springs. Double checked install and its in right. I noted that slowly letting off the trigger would fire but quickly jerking my finger off would cause it not to fire. Weird. Has less than 50 dry fires on it. I'll round up some ammo and when I'm not on duty try to run to the range and see if it does this with live rounds.
EDIT: Installed in a Aero and PSA lower while i wait for the range to be usable. Dry fired with upper attached and will not fire in binary but once every 15 or so times on release. Contacting the maker now. EDIT 2: figured out the issue. The two disconnectors though installed correctly are separating from each other. When I install it in the jig a can see it happening and I can reach in and push them back together which when I do that it operates like its supposed too.  thumbnail_IMG_7258 by Stuart Boyer, on FlickrManufacturer is telling me all this is normal. Said it just need more oil and more break in time before it functions normally. Wondering though as it worked fine before and is now not and the fact its eating a lot of ammo for a break in at range now. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 3:02:03 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just noticed after trying the JP spring that occasionally in binary mode the trigger would rest on release like its in semi mode instead of firing. Switched the springs back and noticed its now doing it even with the provided springs. Double checked install and its in right. I noted that slowly letting off the trigger would fire but quickly jerking my finger off would cause it not to fire. Weird. Has less than 50 dry fires on it. I'll round up some ammo and when I'm not on duty try to run to the range and see if it does this with live rounds. EDIT: Installed in a Aero and PSA lower while i wait for the range to be usable. Dry fired with upper attached and will not fire in binary but once every 15 or so times on release. Contacting the maker now. EDIT 2: figured out the issue. The two disconnectors though installed correctly are separating from each other. When I install it in the jig a can see it happening and I can reach in and push them back together which when I do that it operates like its supposed too. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50404397878_bb8d151421_z.jpgthumbnail_IMG_7258 by Stuart Boyer, on Flickr Manufacturer is telling me all this is normal. Said it just need more oil and more break in time before it functions normally. Wondering though as it worked fine before and is now not and the fact its eating a lot of ammo for a break in at range now. Mine did that for a minute. Naturally timing the disconnectors fixed it. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 3:16:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine did that for a minute. Naturally timing the disconnectors fixed it. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 7:36:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just for shits and giggles, I tried the ITF trigger with the factory MPX hammer in a jig. It worked perfect, however the trigger bridge with have to be relieved a little to allow the 2 disconnectors instead of one. I plan on milling a relief cut on the bridge, however my mill vise is occupied with another project and I don't want to tear it down. Hopefully next week I can get it done and report back. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Has anyone tried these in an MPX yet? Will the stock anvil fit with this trigger? Just for shits and giggles, I tried the ITF trigger with the factory MPX hammer in a jig. It worked perfect, however the trigger bridge with have to be relieved a little to allow the 2 disconnectors instead of one. I plan on milling a relief cut on the bridge, however my mill vise is occupied with another project and I don't want to tear it down. Hopefully next week I can get it done and report back. If you could post a pic of your modification afterwards, I’d appreciate it!! |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 8:52:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Anyone going to be doing any videos?
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Posted: 10/2/2020 7:04:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone going to be doing any videos? |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 9:59:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I might once I get mine working. 150-200 rounds and still malfunctioning. Will not go on safe if holding back the trigger and switching from binary as it will still fire. You mean it fires in the safe position or the selector won't budge? |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 10:24:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mean it fires in the safe position or the selector won't budge? You're not supposed to do that. What he's saying is it is is binary mode and instead of flipping it to semi and releasing, he flips it from binary to safe and it fires. Both of mine do that too. I'm pretty sure that's in the design. You should do Fire in Binary -> switch to semi -> release -> switch to safe. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 11:47:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not supposed to do that. What he's saying is it is is binary mode and instead of flipping it to semi and releasing, he flips it from binary to safe and it fires. Both of mine do that too. I'm pretty sure that's in the design. You should do Fire in Binary -> switch to semi -> release -> switch to safe. Not too big of a fan of that... same thing that turned me off of the AK Boogie Hook. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 3:37:28 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not supposed to do that. What he's saying is it is is binary mode and instead of flipping it to semi and releasing, he flips it from binary to safe and it fires. Both of mine do that too. I'm pretty sure that's in the design. You should do Fire in Binary -> switch to semi -> release -> switch to safe. .......... |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 6:52:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not supposed to do that. What he's saying is it is is binary mode and instead of flipping it to semi and releasing, he flips it from binary to safe and it fires. Both of mine do that too. I'm pretty sure that's in the design. You should do Fire in Binary -> switch to semi -> release -> switch to safe. |
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Posted: 10/5/2020 10:11:13 PM EDT
[#16]
When I first mentioned to the maker I thought I had an issue with mine being out of spec he replied in like 10 minutes stating it was fine and to let it break in with live fire but since I followed his direction and let it "break in" and am still having issues he hasn't responded in 4 days. I am assuming he doesn't answer emails on weekends but for now I bought a really expensive mil spec pull weight trigger.
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Posted: 10/5/2020 10:32:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I first mentioned to the maker I thought I had an issue with mine being out of spec he replied in like 10 minutes stating it was fine and to let it break in with live fire but since I followed his direction and let it "break in" and am still having issues he hasn't responded in 4 days. I am assuming he doesn't answer emails on weekends but for now I bought a really expensive mil spec pull weight trigger. Have you done any modifications? The thing with this system is that it does need some break in or polishing. It's running off a free floated hammer that has some "play" as a result of the FA safety and 2 disconnectors. I've now tried my Anderson hammer, 2 JP speed hammers, and the stock hammers and had no issues after many dry fires. I have now tried JP yellow and standard trigger springs, and JP red and yellow, and standard hammer springs. I had the same issue as you at first. I found the issue youve been describing to be the hammer sear engagement area on the JP hammers and the Anderson hammer. I had no issues with the hammers these came with. It would only release binary if I released the trigger slowly. Try polishing the hammer sear engagement area with 1000 grit or more and then finish off with some light flitz. I had to do that and test and back and forth with install untill I found the sweet spot. I did polish the other areas necessary, but the area that made this work 100% was the sear engagement area On another note, my BAD Pro FA safety selector works. It made my triggers around .25 - .5 lbs less. Don't ask me how. I have no clue how this would effect that. |
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Posted: 10/6/2020 11:38:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you done any modifications? The thing with this system is that it does need some break in or polishing. It's running off a free floated hammer that has some "play" as a result of the FA safety and 2 disconnectors. I've now tried my Anderson hammer, 2 JP speed hammers, and the stock hammers and had no issues after many dry fires. I have now tried JP yellow and standard trigger springs, and JP red and yellow, and standard hammer springs. I had the same issue as you at first. I found the issue youve been describing to be the hammer sear engagement area on the JP hammers and the Anderson hammer. I had no issues with the hammers these came with. It would only release binary if I released the trigger slowly. Try polishing the hammer sear engagement area with 1000 grit or more and then finish off with some light flitz. I had to do that and test and back and forth with install untill I found the sweet spot. I did polish the other areas necessary, but the area that made this work 100% was the sear engagement area On another note, my BAD Pro FA safety selector works. It made my triggers around .25 - .5 lbs less. Don't ask me how. I have no clue how this would effect that. My main issue is the firing on release when changing from binary to semi to cancel the second shot. Did yours do that? I dont wanna do any work before that issue is addressed as polish may not fix that and the ability to cancel binary is necessary. |
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Posted: 10/6/2020 11:56:52 AM EDT
[#19]
The fact that this guy isn't offering factory complete and ready drop in trigger units, with a BS excuse as to why, proves that he doesn't want the liability for his half baked and legally ambiguous product.
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Posted: 10/6/2020 12:43:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No I haven't modified anything yet and got a complete kit with his hammers etc. I was awaiting reply from him before I did anything that would make it so that he may not honor return if its faulty. When its in the jig It works flawless if I push from the side to close the gap between the disconnectors so I think they are out of spec shape wise and the gap between the two is too wide. My main issue is the firing on release when changing from binary to semi to cancel the second shot. Did yours do that? I dont wanna do any work before that issue is addressed as polish may not fix that and the ability to cancel binary is necessary. Mine did not do that. |
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Posted: 10/6/2020 12:53:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mind did not do that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No I haven't modified anything yet and got a complete kit with his hammers etc. I was awaiting reply from him before I did anything that would make it so that he may not honor return if its faulty. When its in the jig It works flawless if I push from the side to close the gap between the disconnectors so I think they are out of spec shape wise and the gap between the two is too wide. My main issue is the firing on release when changing from binary to semi to cancel the second shot. Did yours do that? I dont wanna do any work before that issue is addressed as polish may not fix that and the ability to cancel binary is necessary. Mind did not do that. ahrion thanks to your post on the polishing it made me think to look closer at the hammer and decide to change it out, appreciate it. |
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Posted: 10/10/2020 1:42:21 PM EDT
[#22]
I bought 2 JSE triggers and 2 ITF binaries. I even tried a JP trigger, but I couldn't use that one after modifying it.
I just finished modifying a JSE adjustable trigger (Mega Arms) and I had to do some slight dremel work around the trigger pin area to get the two disconnectors to fit, in addition to sear engagement areas. They were having issues in binary until I polished them really really good. At first it would only fire in binary when resetting slowwwllyy. Flitz/buffing wheel fixed that and I'm not too scared of Flitz and buffing wheel when Flitz is like 3 microns. I also had to use the dremel to drill the second disconnector spring for the trigger. I also remove the "back" of the trigger to make it look less ugly. Removing the M16 engagement area for binary wasn't necessary because it was already removed. The trigger has adjustments for pre travel and overtravel. It yields 2 lbs semi & 3 lbs binary with JP yellow trigger spring and jp yellow hammer spring. It yields 2.5 lbs semi & 3.5 lbs binary with JP yellow trigger spring and jp red hammer spring. I haven't tried stock trigger springs, but I assume it will yield 0.5 lbs+ with it. The adjustment screws allows this trigger to feel like a competition trigger after you polish real good. Adjusting pre travel too much obviously causes the trigger to not reset. Adjusting the overtravel causes the binary mode to not engagement disconnector and get hammer follow which will result in a malfunction. I used a Battle Arms Development pro m16 safety assembly and I also used a JP speed hammer. I had to file the sear engagement area slightly because it was clearly rough and uneven. I then polished the areas real good, including the dissconecter hook area.     
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Posted: 11/8/2020 8:27:12 PM EDT
[#23]
I received an email today from ITF regarding my pending order. It ended with the following blurb concerning ITF and Franklin Armory. I don't own a Franklin BFS, just followed the prior discussions here so I can't really speak to it. I'm just throwing this up in case anybody wants to comment.
ITF Company update, Over the last year, Franklin Armory has been trying to force me or of business with threats from their lawyers and a personal threat from their CEO telling me he knows my address. An email from his lawyer last month said they will be filing a lawsuit in PA court to sue me for patent infringement if I don't stop selling my triggers. As part of the lawsuit, they are also trying to get a court order stopping me from bringing to market the MP5 and AK47 binary triggers that I am currently working on and to take my house, cars, and everything I personally own for restitution and to cover their legal fees. If you own one of my triggers you already know they are nothing like any trigger Franklin has ever made or sold. If they go through with it I don't know how well I would do against a Co. with unlimited money at their disposal. Thank you, Bob Gallagher |
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Posted: 11/9/2020 4:29:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I received an email today from ITF regarding my pending order. It ended with the following blurb concerning ITF and Franklin Armory. I don't own a Franklin BFS, just followed the prior discussions here so I can't really speak to it. I'm just throwing this up in case anybody wants to comment. Quote HistoryQuoted: I received an email today from ITF regarding my pending order. It ended with the following blurb concerning ITF and Franklin Armory. I don't own a Franklin BFS, just followed the prior discussions here so I can't really speak to it. I'm just throwing this up in case anybody wants to comment. ITF Company update, Over the last year, Franklin Armory has been trying to force me or of business with threats from their lawyers and a personal threat from their CEO telling me he knows my address. An email from his lawyer last month said they will be filing a lawsuit in PA court to sue me for patent infringement if I don't stop selling my triggers. As part of the lawsuit, they are also trying to get a court order stopping me from bringing to market the MP5 and AK47 binary triggers that I am currently working on and to take my house, cars, and everything I personally own for restitution and to cover their legal fees. If you own one of my triggers you already know they are nothing like any trigger Franklin has ever made or sold. If they go through with it I don't know how well I would do against a Co. with unlimited money at their disposal. Thank you, Bob Gallagher That's fucking horrible. The owner is a good guy, and does not deserve that crap. Not to mention that the design is completely different from anything they offer. Going after a small company because they found another way to skin the cat is pretty low in my book. The effect is the same in the end, but mechanically they have nothing to do with each other. |
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Posted: 11/9/2020 6:51:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's fucking horrible. The owner is a good guy, and does not deserve that crap. Not to mention that the design is completely different from anything they offer. Going after a small company because they found another way to skin the cat is pretty low in my book. The effect is the same in the end, but mechanically they have nothing to do with each other. I also got this email. I agree it's really fucked up. I'm not sure on patent law or if he violated their patents. However, being a good guy isn't reason enough to not be sued if so. I kind of think this is messed up for Franklin Armory to sue. It's petty, but what are they claiming he violated? |
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Posted: 11/9/2020 8:23:38 PM EDT
[#26]
The irony of Franklin threatening to sue ITF is not lost on me after some of the posts here on AR15.com a member who I believe was the the first person to develop an original AR15 binary trigger. The posts were in the Franklin Armory binary trigger thread.
Edited to clarify and update now that FranklinArmory weighed in with additional information. |
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Posted: 11/9/2020 10:23:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Got the email as well. I never knew fostech sued Franklin over patent infringement. That’s pretty damn funny. Out of the three triggers, I’d place the Franklin at the bottom. Had 2 and removed them both due to issues.
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Posted: 11/9/2020 11:21:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got the email as well. I never knew fostech sued Franklin over patent infringement. That’s pretty damn funny. Out of the three triggers, I’d place the Franklin at the bottom. Had 2 and removed them both due to issues. Quote HistoryQuoted: Got the email as well. I never knew fostech sued Franklin over patent infringement. That’s pretty damn funny. Out of the three triggers, I’d place the Franklin at the bottom. Had 2 and removed them both due to issues. For clarity, there may have been a settlement/determination behind the scenes but clearly something was up. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/New-three-position-trigger-from-Franklin-Armory-Update-testing-underway/118-666636/&page=39#i7081678 Quoted: I am the inventor and patent holder of the dual mode trigger. I have been working on the concept since 2010. I patented the trigger, applied for patents in 2012, have received two patents on the trigger received in 2014. http://www.google.com/patents/US8667881 I also received BATF approval in 2014 for my trigger prototype. If you search my post history, you can see I was on here looking for manufacturers. I rather naively believed that my patents would protect me. I have since assigned my patents to Fostech, who refined the design and are introducing the trigger as the ECHO trigger. Franklin Armory has copied my concept, has infringed on my second patent, and to the best of my knowledge has not received a BATF approval letter (correct me if I am wrong). In this video of my prototype:  Prototype BATF-FTB approved patent pending AR-15 trigger group, .223 upper. If you read the comments, you can see where Franklin Armory is trying to get me to release and post my BATF approval letter (back in 2014). I am not going to tell you how to spend your money, just had to correct the erroneous assumption that Franklin Armory brought this concept to fruition and is the inventor of this trigger, and that Fostech is a copycat. It is actually the other way round. Franklin just got theirs out first. Fostech has been assigned my patents and I am working with them. I am not going to go into what I think of Franklin Armory, but I can tell you that Fostech DID NOT copy Franklins concept as many here seem to assume. There's more in the thread, including some responses from Franklin Armory. Franklin also has their own patents, and looking at them online, they do seem different from what ITF is selling so hopefully ITF can survive but I'm no patent expert. ITF's design also looks different from Fostech and Mr. Hawbaker's design but again, I'm not a patent attorney. Edited to clarify and update now that FranklinArmory weighed in with additional information. |
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Posted: 11/9/2020 11:58:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For clarity, there may have been a settlement behind the scenes but clearly something was up. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/New-three-position-trigger-from-Franklin-Armory-Update-testing-underway/118-666636/&page=39#i7081678 There's more in the thread, included some responses from Franklin Armory. Franklin also has their own patents, and looking at them online, they do seem different from what ITF is selling so hopefully ITF can survive but I'm no patent expert. ITF's design also looks different from Fostech and Mr. Hawbaker's design but again, I'm not a patent attorney. I mean of that's the case depending on Fostech or Franklin, wouldn't that be prior art? The only reason franklin would be super cucks about it is if they we're losing business to ITF imo. |
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Posted: 11/13/2020 12:01:28 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that this guy isn't offering factory complete and ready drop in trigger units, with a BS excuse as to why, proves that he doesn't want the liability for his half baked and legally ambiguous product. Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that this guy isn't offering factory complete and ready drop in trigger units, with a BS excuse as to why, proves that he doesn't want the liability for his half baked and legally ambiguous product. That's not completely correct. The 80% triggers are only shipped to states that ban binary triggers. It's stated on Bob's home page: Binary Triggers Cannot be shipped to The following states: California, Washington DC, Iowa, North Dakota, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Washington, Hawaii, Rhode Island, Florida, and Connecticut have laws banning the sale of binary triggers. If you live in one of the states listed above, you will be shipped an 80% complete trigger. He'd be foolish to ship 100% completed units into those states and risk possible legal action. He's following a prudent course of action. It's his neck on the line, not yours. So no "BS excuse" that I can see. If you're not in those listed states you get a finished drop in unit. I'm in GA and binary triggers aren't banned here. Mine came today and the trigger channel is fully open and ready to install with no further machining needed on my part. The rest of your comment is fairly subjective but that's your opinion. |
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Posted: 11/14/2020 10:32:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not completely correct. The 80% triggers are only shipped to states that ban binary triggers. It's stated on Bob's home page: He'd be foolish to ship 100% completed units into those states and risk possible legal action. He's following a prudent course of action. It's his neck on the line, not yours. So no "BS excuse" that I can see. If you're not in those listed states you get a finished drop in unit. I'm in GA and binary triggers aren't banned here. Mine came today and the trigger channel is fully open and ready to install with no further machining needed on my part. The rest of your comment is fairly subjective but that's your opinion. |
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Posted: 11/16/2020 5:03:25 PM EDT
[#32]
If you're interested in one of these triggers, you'd better hurry up and order. I just found this lawsuit filing:
https://dockets.justia.com/docket/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2020cv05681/578114 EDIT: After looking at Franklin's patent, I don't see where ITF's design is a ripoff of it. It seems to me that the binary aspect of the designs work on different principles and the rest of the design is all free-and-clear prior art. I'm no legal expert, but I know patents are supposed to be for the implementation of an idea, not the idea itself. |
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Posted: 11/17/2020 2:01:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're interested in one of these triggers, you'd better hurry up and order. I just found this lawsuit filing: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2020cv05681/578114 EDIT: After looking at Franklin's patent, I don't see where ITF's design is a ripoff of it. It seems to me that the binary aspect of the designs work on different principles and the rest of the design is all free-and-clear prior art. I'm no legal expert, but I know patents are supposed to be for the implementation of an idea, not the idea itself. They likely just want this guy to drown in attorney fees. I feel bad for the guy. Makes me have a different outlook on Franklin. |
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Posted: 11/17/2020 2:10:30 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They likely just want this guy to drown in attorney fees. I feel bad for the guy. Makes me have a different outlook on Franklin. I’m tempted to start up a GoFundMe campaign for his legal fees. I doubt it would get many contributions though; ITF is still mostly unknown. |
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Posted: 11/18/2020 6:07:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not completely correct. The 80% triggers are only shipped to states that ban binary triggers. It's stated on Bob's home page: He'd be foolish to ship 100% completed units into those states and risk possible legal action. He's following a prudent course of action. It's his neck on the line, not yours. So no "BS excuse" that I can see. If you're not in those listed states you get a finished drop in unit. I'm in GA and binary triggers aren't banned here. Mine came today and the trigger channel is fully open and ready to install with no further machining needed on my part. The rest of your comment is fairly subjective but that's your opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The fact that this guy isn't offering factory complete and ready drop in trigger units, with a BS excuse as to why, proves that he doesn't want the liability for his half baked and legally ambiguous product. That's not completely correct. The 80% triggers are only shipped to states that ban binary triggers. It's stated on Bob's home page: Binary Triggers Cannot be shipped to The following states: California, Washington DC, Iowa, North Dakota, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Washington, Hawaii, Rhode Island, Florida, and Connecticut have laws banning the sale of binary triggers. If you live in one of the states listed above, you will be shipped an 80% complete trigger. He'd be foolish to ship 100% completed units into those states and risk possible legal action. He's following a prudent course of action. It's his neck on the line, not yours. So no "BS excuse" that I can see. If you're not in those listed states you get a finished drop in unit. I'm in GA and binary triggers aren't banned here. Mine came today and the trigger channel is fully open and ready to install with no further machining needed on my part. The rest of your comment is fairly subjective but that's your opinion. Ok, so me living in a free state, can I order and receive a fully functioning drop in binary trigger unit from him or not? Last I read, you had to supply your own full auto lower parts components, which puts you in very skeezy legal territory, IMHO. |
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Posted: 11/18/2020 7:17:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, so me living in a free state, can I order and receive a fully functioning drop in binary trigger unit from him or not? Last I read, you had to supply your own full auto lower parts components, which puts you in very skeezy legal territory, IMHO. To my understanding, all triggers sent are 80%. A lot of companies don't remove the end of the trigger for FA. This includes JP, PSA, etc. I'm assuming it has to do with not wanting to pay a specific manufacturing tax stamp or something. It's 100% fine for us to own or purchase full auto parts in most states such as a carrier, trigger, disconnectors, safeties etc. Obviously states may vary. |
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Posted: 11/19/2020 4:48:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To my understanding, all triggers sent are 80%. A lot of companies don't remove the end of the trigger for FA. This includes JP, PSA, etc. I'm assuming it has to do with not wanting to pay a specific manufacturing tax stamp or something. It's 100% fine for us to own or purchase full auto parts in most states such as a carrier, trigger, disconnectors, safeties etc. Obviously states may vary. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ok, so me living in a free state, can I order and receive a fully functioning drop in binary trigger unit from him or not? Last I read, you had to supply your own full auto lower parts components, which puts you in very skeezy legal territory, IMHO. To my understanding, all triggers sent are 80%. A lot of companies don't remove the end of the trigger for FA. This includes JP, PSA, etc. I'm assuming it has to do with not wanting to pay a specific manufacturing tax stamp or something. It's 100% fine for us to own or purchase full auto parts in most states such as a carrier, trigger, disconnectors, safeties etc. Obviously states may vary. I think the concern comes in with if you are using full a auto parts in your rifle to replicate full auto (I know it's "binary") fire. I've always read that full auto FCG parts should never be installed in your rifle, or you are just asking for legal trouble. |
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Posted: 11/19/2020 5:03:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, so me living in a free state, can I order and receive a fully functioning drop in binary trigger unit from him or not? Apparently not. I spoke erroneously. I asked Bob why I received a fully completed unit and he explained that he had been finishing and testing more units to ensure functionality from his supplier. Those completed units were then sent out randomly to customers. Apparently I was one of those customers. |
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Posted: 11/19/2020 5:11:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Franklin has filed suit against ITF as mentioned above. You can view and download the complaint on Bob's website.
https://inthefielddefenses.com/franklin-lawsuit From a quick reading it looks like Franklin is claiming ITF is violating one of Franklin's binary trigger patents (apparently they have 4?) and also claiming that ITF is selling an "illegal machine gun." This was in an email from ITF today: Franklin submitted their lawsuit on the 14th. Looks like I am going to court. They have 4 trigger patents and it looks like they are doing to sue me individually for each one until they win or I run out of money. I am putting the lawsuit info. on my web site. As of right now all the lawyers I spoke to want to take what money I have and settle out of court with an agreement of me doing out of business, so it looks like it will be me representing myself. If anyone has some good legal advice, I would be happy to hear it. |
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Posted: 11/19/2020 7:18:24 PM EDT
[#40]
In other words, Franklin wants a reasonably priced binary trigger out of the way so they can continue gouging people for their own trigger.
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Posted: 11/19/2020 8:14:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In other words, Franklin wants a reasonably priced binary trigger out of the way so they can continue gouging people for their own trigger. Yes. Killing the competition. |
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Posted: 11/19/2020 8:15:53 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Franklin has filed suit against ITF as mentioned above. You can view and download the complaint on Bob's website. https://inthefielddefenses.com/franklin-lawsuit From a quick reading it looks like Franklin is claiming ITF is violating one of Franklin's binary trigger patents (apparently they have 4?) and also claiming that ITF is selling an "illegal machine gun." This was in an email from ITF today: Quote HistoryQuoted: Franklin has filed suit against ITF as mentioned above. You can view and download the complaint on Bob's website. https://inthefielddefenses.com/franklin-lawsuit From a quick reading it looks like Franklin is claiming ITF is violating one of Franklin's binary trigger patents (apparently they have 4?) and also claiming that ITF is selling an "illegal machine gun." This was in an email from ITF today: Franklin submitted their lawsuit on the 14th. Looks like I am going to court. They have 4 trigger patents and it looks like they are doing to sue me individually for each one until they win or I run out of money. I am putting the lawsuit info. on my web site. As of right now all the lawyers I spoke to want to take what money I have and settle out of court with an agreement of me doing out of business, so it looks like it will be me representing myself. If anyone has some good legal advice, I would be happy to hear it. How the heck is Franklin armory claiming that ITF defense is making illegal machine guns? It’s a binary trigger, it’s not full auto. |
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Posted: 11/20/2020 7:48:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How the heck is Franklin armory claiming that ITF defense is making illegal machine guns? It’s a binary trigger, it’s not full auto. Good question. I've read the complaint and they just jump to that conclusion without explaining it, after they explain why a binary trigger falls outside the definition of a machine gun. Also, it seems to me that the claims in the patent they're citing are conceptual and independent of the actual implementation. Here's are links to the complaint and the patent: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/0337d1dc-9a39-49ed-84d8-9715c0073917/paedce-578114.pdf http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=10,393,461.PN.&OS=PN/10,393,461&RS=PN/10,393,461 |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 1:45:31 PM EDT
[#44]
I think the full auto claims are just slander to get a sympathetic jury who doesn’t know a thing about firearms to get him to stop.
If bob is using someone’s patent then he is going to have to deal with those repercussions. The only thing that Franklin armory wants is for him to go out of business. Reading the complaint shows that. They know he cannot afford to fight it, they know he can’t afford to pay royalties on the patents so his only option is to close up shop. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 10:13:32 AM EDT
[#45]
Perhaps due to the below definition of "machine gun" by BATF? The reason why companies refused to sell full auto bolt carriers in their commercial sale AR15s before they became the industry standard. Aside from the BCG, you don't see companies sell their commercial AR15 rifles with full auto hammers and triggers, etc (even though they are more technically accurate). So it seems when it comes to fire control parts, no commercial company wants to dabble with selling those style parts.
ITF trigger requires full auto fire control parts for it to function as intended. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-0 Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 12:11:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Owner posted a GoFundMe for legals fees.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/franklin-armory-lawsuit Seems like a genuinely good guy getting screwed by the man. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 1:38:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like a genuinely good guy getting screwed by the man. Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like a genuinely good guy getting screwed by the man. Agreed. Here's a snippet from his email to customers: I would like to thank all of you that call and emailed me to make sure I was OK and give me your support. Many of you asked me to start a Gofundme page to help out with the legal fees to fight this case. I did start a fundraiser and the link is https://www.gofundme.com/f/franklin-armory-lawsuit?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1 There is also a link on my website. Can you please share this with as many people as you possibly can and with our friends on AR15.com? Every little bit helps. I have to tell you my eyes started to tear up when I was telling my wife about all your emails and phone calls and she said, you care about your customers and they know that and that's why they care about you. I have never, in my life taught that I would start a business that would lead to so many friendships with so many people from all over the country. My family and I all thank you for everything you do for us. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 7:55:39 PM EDT
[#48]
If you haven't received a cease and desist,
produce a metric sh*t ton of these and rebrand it as the FFT ( f*#k franklin trigger) ! |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:30:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The irony of Franklin threatening to sue ITF is not lost on me after they were sued by Fostech and the original AR15 binary trigger patent holder for violating the patent that was already in place on the design they were using without a license agreement. Quote HistoryQuoted: The irony of Franklin threatening to sue ITF is not lost on me after they were sued by Fostech and the original AR15 binary trigger patent holder for violating the patent that was already in place on the design they were using without a license agreement. Quoted: Got the email as well. I never knew fostech sued Franklin over patent infringement. That’s pretty damn funny. Out of the three triggers, I’d place the Franklin at the bottom. Had 2 and removed them both due to issues. I believe you both are mistaken. Franklin Armory was never sued by Fostech. In fact, the Fostech Echo has used our technology. For this reason, Fostech has agreed to post our patent numbers on their packaging. I will point out that the Fostech Sport does not use our technology and uses the original Hawbaker design instead. Fostech did a great job in implementing the Sport design. For those of you that have the ITFD product in hand, perform the following test with an unloaded firearm: 1. Select pull release mode. 2. Pull the trigger and hold it back. 3. Recock the hammer by charging the carrier. 4. Release the trigger but keep your finger at the breaking point. 5. Recock the hammer with the finger kept at the release point. *** If the hammer is uncontrolled and is allowed to travel back and forth without getting cocked on a sear, ATF has declared that such a device is a machine gun because the loose hammer can create an automatic function.*** We reviewed the ITFD product and did not find a method to capture the hammer on release. Mr. Gallagher was made aware of the opinion, so he chose to induce his customers to infringe and manufacture the devices. |
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Posted: 11/25/2020 12:10:42 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe you both are mistaken. Franklin Armory was never sued by Fostech. In fact, the Fostech Echo has used our technology. For this reason, Fostech has agreed to post our patent numbers on their packaging. I will point out that the Fostech Sport does not use our technology and uses the original Hawbaker design instead. Fostech did a great job in implementing the Sport design. @franklinarmory I've updated my posts. If you believe they still don't reflect your above comment a bit better when combined with the historical posts/threads here at AR15.com [edit: let me know.] I knew that Fostech had licensed a patent from another manufacture before going to market, specifically I thought it was Hyperfire. I do hope that ITF/Franklin/Fostech can all come to an agreement that keeps all three product lines on the market. I've got a Fostech setup and I'd like to see more binary triggers in the field as the more common place they become, the more support they'll all have and it encourages innovation/improvement for all companies in the market. |
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