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Posted: 2/3/2020 2:58:32 PM EDT
[#1]
This goes up there with Caliber debates and Tactics, LOL! I'm in the "You can never have enough" camp - give me the most Lumens and Candela you can stuff in there, favoring Candela if you have to. Go hang up a Sweatshirt and Jeans at various places around your house and test. I want the dudes face to melt off
60 Lumens is old school, incandescent, Surefire 6P stuff
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Posted: 2/3/2020 3:02:46 PM EDT
[#2]
No such thing as too much. In before "you'll blind yourself if you have white walls."
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Posted: 2/3/2020 3:14:42 PM EDT
[#3]
I would say the sun would be too much. Other than that it is ok.
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Posted: 2/3/2020 3:15:33 PM EDT
[#4]
The late, great Pat Rogers and, more recently, Aaron Cowan make very good arguments for mo' lumen/candela. I personally pitched my tent in the nuclear bright camp.
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Posted: 2/3/2020 4:32:01 PM EDT
[#5]
I am happy with 600+ but I like a tight beam. As to the "all the lumens" camp sun glasses exist for a reason.
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Posted: 2/3/2020 4:53:08 PM EDT
[#6]
If one starts with the perspective of the meat-machine being basis of any system, and all tools added being augmentation for enhancement of said meat-machine, then the answer immediately presents. There is ALWAYS a trade-off for adding anything to a system. I pose the question, “Based on the fundamental design traits and characteristics of your meat-machine, what could be the potential detrimental effects of bombarding ones self with high intensity light at 2am while under duress?”
The trend across the board has shifted from working inside-out, towards derivative logic based on an outside-in perspective. The end result being a never-ending cycle of products & associated TTP’s based around said products intended to fix problems that were self-created in the first place. In a nutshell, people have lost sight of the wisdom of fitting/designing tools/system around you, as opposed to modifying your body to fit your tools/system. Hence we end up with chest rigs, belly bands, 10lb ar’s, TOB grips, square stances, etc etc. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:10:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If one starts with the perspective of the meat-machine being basis of any system, and all tools added being augmentation for enhancement of said meat-machine, then the answer immediately presents. There is ALWAYS a trade-off for adding anything to a system. I pose the question, “Based on the fundamental design traits and characteristics of your meat-machine, what could be the potential detrimental effects of bombarding ones self with high intensity light at 2am while under duress?” The trend across the board has shifted from working inside-out, towards derivative logic based on an outside-in perspective. The end result being a never-ending cycle of products & associated TTP’s based around said products intended to fix problems that were self-created in the first place. In a nutshell, people have lost sight of the wisdom of fitting/designing tools/system around you, as opposed to modifying your body to fit your tools/system. Hence we end up with chest rigs, belly bands, 10lb ar’s, TOB grips, square stances, etc etc. I run 1000 lumen lights on my duty rifles. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:13:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Best way to answer questions like the one you posed is through experimentation and examination. By that I mean run your gear in as close to real world conditions as possible again and again. I run 1000 lumen lights on my duty rifles. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:15:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The late, great Pat Rogers and, more recently, Aaron Cowan make very good arguments for mo' lumen/candela. I personally pitched my tent in the nuclear bright camp. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:31:18 PM EDT
[#10]
All the lumens
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:41:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If one starts with the perspective of the meat-machine being basis of any system, and all tools added being augmentation for enhancement of said meat-machine, then the answer immediately presents. There is ALWAYS a trade-off for adding anything to a system. I pose the question, “Based on the fundamental design traits and characteristics of your meat-machine, what could be the potential detrimental effects of bombarding ones self with high intensity light at 2am while under duress?” The trend across the board has shifted from working inside-out, towards derivative logic based on an outside-in perspective. The end result being a never-ending cycle of products & associated TTP’s based around said products intended to fix problems that were self-created in the first place. In a nutshell, people have lost sight of the wisdom of fitting/designing tools/system around you, as opposed to modifying your body to fit your tools/system. Hence we end up with chest rigs, belly bands, 10lb ar’s, TOB grips, square stances, etc etc. OP, use what works for you. IME 1,000 lumens isn't too much provided proper technique is used. I personally like being able to see an entire room without muzzling anyone that might be in that room. Then, should a threat be identified, I can now control that person's vision. They only get to see me or anything around me if I allow it. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:43:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Setting the curtains on fire is probably overkill.
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:46:14 PM EDT
[#13]
If the light sets shit on fire, it’s too much.
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:47:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Currently a Surefire X300u-A 1K Lumen is about right for me.
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Posted: 2/3/2020 5:52:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Can’t have enough light.
Whispers to Alexa on nightstand, “Alexa, turn on all lights” ... 
Seriously, WiFi plugs are like $10 and they’re easy to setup on the home network. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 6:01:18 PM EDT
[#16]
I think 600lm is good.
All my HD lights are 600-1000lm |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 6:02:47 PM EDT
[#17]
If you are worried about blinding yourself, you can run a Surefire XH35. The lumen output can be toggled between 300 & 1000 lumens, and it's a wide spill beam with low candela.
Personally, I'm inclined to favor a decent amount of throw and more light when possible, within reason anyway; I'd take a Modlite 5k PLH or that new Cloud Defensive REIN coming up. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 6:43:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Lol, no such thing as too much. Modlites on rifles, 1000 lumen X300U’s on handguns.
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Posted: 2/3/2020 6:47:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No such thing as too much. In before "you'll blind yourself if you have white walls." You want all the light you can get. Jay |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 7:17:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Honestly I’d say 200-500 is ideal, but in reality lux is more important than lumens on the upper end of the spectrum as that’s what your eyes register/react to. The moon is only 0.25 lux yet reflects 4.8 trillion lumens. Extreme example but you get the idea. If you see a bright hotspot your eyes will react much more dramatically than if you have a lower lux light, which usually, but not always correlated to lumens. Keep in mind bad guys come at night while you are asleep. Your pupils will be wide open when you turn that light on. There is 100% such thing as too much light.
Get a light with a wide spill and even diffusion to help maximize output while minimizing harshness that will make you just as blind as the BG. |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 7:19:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
The title essentially says it all. I have not bought weapon lights in quite some time. I seem to recall that one needs at least 60 lumens. The SureFires I have are in 60-70-lumen range, which I've found sufficient over the years. Now that I'm looking for another light after apparently living under a rock for a decade, it seems that, current options pour 10-20 times more light than I need or want. That seems absurd. How much is too much? |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 7:47:06 PM EDT
[#22]
You know there is a lot of room for discussion regarding what type of set up you are dealing with. A small apartment, or a large multi-story house.
Indoors or in and out. Multiple perps is a real concern, and you might not want the brightest light in the world if you may have to go room by room/floor. Definitely a tight bean as well especially if outdoors also. And if an incident who is not going to clear outside as well. And forget having time to grab another rifle/light combo. You know one thing someone should make (if they don't already) is a sort of 2000 lumen "flash" module you could throw into a room or area. It could be programable, even with multiple colors, or even IR. It sure would seem useful for HD. And almost as dangerous as the grands "walkers." |
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Posted: 2/3/2020 9:25:52 PM EDT
[#23]
I've pondered throwing a streamlight hl 5-x 88080 in 30mm scope rings for a home brew weapon light, (not sure if that actually works, weigh in if you try it)
By the numbers that would be about equivalent to a streamlight hellfighter |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 8:43:35 AM EDT
[#24]
Last time there was a thread on this the discussion went very in depth. Someone with an educated background on the subject also provided information on specifically on what a home defense (not a general purpose defense weapon light) might need to be. There was a lot of debate on theory and citing Cowan, but a test was suggested: Set an alarm for something like 4 AM - after you have been asleep for a few hours - wake up and try using your light. Your eyes will be overly sensitive for the first minute or so after waking up. If you find it's too bright, then you know.
I have another post from the forums here in my notes from the forums I'll dig up later today for you guys. Someone was running a shoothouse and they tried all sorts of different lights with different people running the house. They found that the best times were around the 200 lumen area. When the lights got more and more powerful the times actually started going up. There is a lot of interesting discussion on the topic, and it appears the only wrong answer is to think that there is only one right answer. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:38:40 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Last time there was a thread on this the discussion went very in depth. Someone with an educated background on the subject also provided information on specifically on what a home defense (not a general purpose defense weapon light) might need to be. There was a lot of debate on theory and citing Cowan, but a test was suggested: Set an alarm for something like 4 AM - after you have been asleep for a few hours - wake up and try using your light. Your eyes will be overly sensitive for the first minute or so after waking up. If you find it's too bright, then you know. I have another post from the forums here in my notes from the forums I'll dig up later today for you guys. Someone was running a shoothouse and they tried all sorts of different lights with different people running the house. They found that the best times were around the 200 lumen area. When the lights got more and more powerful the times actually started going up. There is a lot of interesting discussion on the topic, and it appears the only wrong answer is to think that there is only one right answer. On the shoothouse example I could see that if you're going in at the ready and initially painting your target with the light. I wonder what the difference would be if they were going in muzzle up or down and using splash first like you would in your home? More light = more data and the initial illumination would give your eyes a transition period. Last discussion I tested it and pointing the light on white walls at chest level was very uncomfortable but I could still navigate. When I used the ceiling to splash light as I really would it was much easier to tolerate. 1,000 lumens out of an X300U was just fine. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 10:06:49 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can’t have enough light. Whispers to Alexa on nightstand, “Alexa, turn on all lights” ...
Seriously, WiFi plugs are like $10 and they’re easy to setup on the home network. Lumens is total output and limits spill brightness and bounced light ability to fill a room most of the time. I think 300-1500 lumens is about right depending on needs. Candela is your range. Get as much candela as you need to see at max distance. 5,000 minimum and 100,000 maximum. How far do you need to see? 25 feet? 200 yards? |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 10:11:12 AM EDT
[#27]
If you worry about blinding yourself, get a light with all the lumens and a flip cap frosted diffuser for up close at 3AM, then flip open when you get some pupil adjustment.
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Posted: 2/4/2020 10:13:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This eliminates your advantage. With a weaponlight YOU can see, the bad guy CAN'T.
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Posted: 2/4/2020 11:56:11 AM EDT
[#29]
I have lights between 200-1200 on my weapons.
I think around 200 would be the minimum I would want. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 2:45:47 PM EDT
[#30]
My HD AR is shorter than 16” barrel so I’ll run a Arisaka 300. I have 2 of them one with Malkoff E1 scout head (320 lumens and more spill) and the other with a E1ht head (325 lumens, 23k lux and longer throw).
If my HD was 16” barrel or longer I’ll run either a Streamlight HLX (1k lumen, 27k candela), Surefire M600df (1500 lumens) or Arisaka 600 (500 lumens and 35k candela). I don’t want too much weight up front on my HD or the possibility of blinding myself. With the M600df if you light up a white wall from close range you will blind yourself. Same thing goes for the HLX as well. It’s a lot of trial and error I guess. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 2:53:35 PM EDT
[#31]
I would think that the more light the better.
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Posted: 2/4/2020 3:00:31 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Set an alarm for something like 4 AM - after you have been asleep for a few hours - wake up and try using your light. Your eyes will be overly sensitive for the first minute or so after waking up. If you find it's too bright, then you know. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 3:11:53 PM EDT
[#33]
The purpose if a weapon light is to identify your potential target, unlike the movies where lights only illuminate a tiny area pretty much any light will light up a room enough to verify it's an intruder and not your kid, dog, wife, etc...
Using the more is always better theory, a 50 BMG should just about fit the bill for a HD rifle. 
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Posted: 2/4/2020 3:24:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The purpose if a weapon light is to identify your potential target, unlike the movies where lights only illuminate a tiny area pretty much any light will light up a room enough to verify it's an intruder and not your kid, dog, wife, etc... Using the more is always better theory, a 50 BMG should just about fit the bill for a HD rifle. Btw...you really ought to watch Aaron Cowan's video. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 4:37:19 PM EDT
[#35]
~600 lumens is as much as I want indoors, and I can easily get by with less. Outside? However many lumens you can get.
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Posted: 2/5/2020 12:04:46 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
The title essentially says it all. I have not bought weapon lights in quite some time. I seem to recall that one needs at least 60 lumens. The SureFires I have are in 60-70-lumen range, which I've found sufficient over the years. Now that I'm looking for another light after apparently living under a rock for a decade, it seems that, current options pour 10-20 times more light than I need or want. That seems absurd. How much is too much? May change in the future but I haven't seen it in training nor testing. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 8:24:11 AM EDT
[#37]
If you want to hedge your bets for indoor use, but want "all the Candela/Lumens" - get a warmer LED. I just got my Warrior-X Pro in. It's comparable to my current Acebeam L16 that has 91,000 Candela (although MadMax YouTube got 107,000 Candela with the Olight), but it's a lot "warmer" - so appears less harsh/jarring. I prefer "cooler" LEDs, but the numbers don't lie - the Olight is a beast.
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Posted: 2/5/2020 8:06:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want to hedge your bets for indoor use, but want "all the Candela/Lumens" - get a warmer LED. I just got my Warrior-X Pro in. It's comparable to my current Acebeam L16 that has 91,000 Candela (although MadMax YouTube got 107,000 Candela with the Olight), but it's a lot "warmer" - so appears less harsh/jarring. I prefer "cooler" LEDs, but the numbers don't lie - the Olight is a beast.  Olight Warrior Pro X & i5T EDC Flashlight Sale ?? |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 8:16:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For folks trying to get an idea of what that looks like the beam pattern is shown in my quick video below.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjne2UOCX3A |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 8:16:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Very pleased with my 600 lumen Surefire.
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Posted: 2/5/2020 9:16:21 PM EDT
[#41]
I had a 300 (handheld) lumen light that I used at work. It was fine for clearing buildings, close spaces, etc.
But then I got into a gunfight outside in mixed lighting at night where it did nothing but occupy a hand. 1000 ish lumens is my standard now for weapon/handheld lights. I’ll take a little bright off a white wall vs not useful outside if abporch light is on. I think Photon barrier is the technical term for what I’m describing. In my experience more is always better. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 9:28:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a 300 (handheld) lumen light that I used at work. It was fine for clearing buildings, close spaces, etc. But then I got into a gunfight outside in mixed lighting at night where it did nothing but occupy a hand. 1000 ish lumens is my standard now for weapon/handheld lights. I’ll take a little bright off a white wall vs not useful outside if abporch light is on. I think Photon barrier is the technical term for what I’m describing. In my experience more is always better. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 10:03:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Willing to expound a bit? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had a 300 (handheld) lumen light that I used at work. It was fine for clearing buildings, close spaces, etc. But then I got into a gunfight outside in mixed lighting at night where it did nothing but occupy a hand. 1000 ish lumens is my standard now for weapon/handheld lights. I’ll take a little bright off a white wall vs not useful outside if abporch light is on. I think Photon barrier is the technical term for what I’m describing. In my experience more is always better. The scene was a parking lot of a diner. So there were lights coming from the restaurant behind /next to me and between me and bad guy was a lit street light in the parking lot. Behind that was a swampy ravine. My light could not illuminate past the lamp post. Not enough juice to penetrate the shadows and mixed light. My threat ID was the dude’s muzzle flashes. I also had to drop the light to reload. Some lessons from that... Carry guns have gun lights. Dropping the light to reload, use radio/phone, and no longer illuminate threat is a shitty dance I would rather not play again. Lights should be bright as possible. That perfect light for indoors may suck balls in the yard. But 1000 lumens is perfectly fine for inside. Night sights (red dots for rifles) are also on all carry guns. They were useful here. I hope that makes sense. This is my reasoning from my experience, so your situation my warrant different. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 11:51:38 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bad guy was robbery suspect I located and pursued. He shot at me after I cleared the corner he ran past. The scene was a parking lot of a diner. So there were lights coming from the restaurant behind /next to me and between me and bad guy was a lit street light in the parking lot. Behind that was a swampy ravine. My light could not illuminate past the lamp post. Not enough juice to penetrate the shadows and mixed light. My threat ID was the dude’s muzzle flashes. I also had to drop the light to reload. Some lessons from that... Carry guns have gun lights. Dropping the light to reload, use radio/phone, and no longer illuminate threat is a shitty dance I would rather not play again. Lights should be bright as possible. That perfect light for indoors may suck balls in the yard. But 1000 lumens is perfectly fine for inside. Night sights (red dots for rifles) are also on all carry guns. They were useful here. I hope that makes sense. This is my reasoning from my experience, so your situation my warrant different. Based on earlier comments, I did the light test this AM. I woke up, and, in my bedroom, turned on my ThruNite TN12 (my bedside light). I keep it on 200 Lumens normally, but cranked it up to Max (1100 lumens) and counted. It took 32 seconds for me to stop squinting, and for the first 7 seconds there is no way in hell I could properly engage a BG. YMMV but that's a hard no from me. My Surefire X300 is 500 Lumens (I think they are brighter now, mine is a few years old) and I don't think I'd want any brighter in the house. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. |
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Posted: 2/6/2020 12:00:40 AM EDT
[#45]
gets dark here, I have 1000 lumen Fenix on my "beater, around town AK"
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Posted: 2/6/2020 12:33:24 AM EDT
[#46]
70,000 lumens might be a bit much.
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Posted: 2/6/2020 10:45:31 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While I appreciate this perspective, a duty weapon and a HD weapon are very different things. I don't think any of us plan on getting into a firefight outside in mixed lighting where BG is essentially getting further away (read: running away). I understand that you were in pursuit, but if Mr John Q Public needed to "pursue" a BG outside, I think Mr. Public would find himself behind bars in short order. Based on earlier comments, I did the light test this AM. I woke up, and, in my bedroom, turned on my ThruNite TN12 (my bedside light). I keep it on 200 Lumens normally, but cranked it up to Max (1100 lumens) and counted. It took 32 seconds for me to stop squinting, and for the first 7 seconds there is no way in hell I could properly engage a BG. YMMV but that's a hard no from me. My Surefire X300 is 500 Lumens (I think they are brighter now, mine is a few years old) and I don't think I'd want any brighter in the house. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Bad guy was robbery suspect I located and pursued. He shot at me after I cleared the corner he ran past. The scene was a parking lot of a diner. So there were lights coming from the restaurant behind /next to me and between me and bad guy was a lit street light in the parking lot. Behind that was a swampy ravine. My light could not illuminate past the lamp post. Not enough juice to penetrate the shadows and mixed light. My threat ID was the dude’s muzzle flashes. I also had to drop the light to reload. Some lessons from that... Carry guns have gun lights. Dropping the light to reload, use radio/phone, and no longer illuminate threat is a shitty dance I would rather not play again. Lights should be bright as possible. That perfect light for indoors may suck balls in the yard. But 1000 lumens is perfectly fine for inside. Night sights (red dots for rifles) are also on all carry guns. They were useful here. I hope that makes sense. This is my reasoning from my experience, so your situation my warrant different. Based on earlier comments, I did the light test this AM. I woke up, and, in my bedroom, turned on my ThruNite TN12 (my bedside light). I keep it on 200 Lumens normally, but cranked it up to Max (1100 lumens) and counted. It took 32 seconds for me to stop squinting, and for the first 7 seconds there is no way in hell I could properly engage a BG. YMMV but that's a hard no from me. My Surefire X300 is 500 Lumens (I think they are brighter now, mine is a few years old) and I don't think I'd want any brighter in the house. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Options are great these days. |
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Posted: 2/6/2020 3:50:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While I appreciate this perspective, a duty weapon and a HD weapon are very different things. I don't think any of us plan on getting into a firefight outside in mixed lighting where BG is essentially getting further away (read: running away). I understand that you were in pursuit, but if Mr John Q Public needed to "pursue" a BG outside, I think Mr. Public would find himself behind bars in short order. Based on earlier comments, I did the light test this AM. I woke up, and, in my bedroom, turned on my ThruNite TN12 (my bedside light). I keep it on 200 Lumens normally, but cranked it up to Max (1100 lumens) and counted. It took 32 seconds for me to stop squinting, and for the first 7 seconds there is no way in hell I could properly engage a BG. YMMV but that's a hard no from me. My Surefire X300 is 500 Lumens (I think they are brighter now, mine is a few years old) and I don't think I'd want any brighter in the house. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. |
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Posted: 2/6/2020 10:25:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Mine are 200-300. Only cause I haven't needed to buy a light in years.
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Posted: 2/6/2020 10:59:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While I appreciate this perspective, a duty weapon and a HD weapon are very different things. I don't think any of us plan on getting into a firefight outside in mixed lighting where BG is essentially getting further away (read: running away). I understand that you were in pursuit, but if Mr John Q Public needed to "pursue" a BG outside, I think Mr. Public would find himself behind bars in short order. Based on earlier comments, I did the light test this AM. I woke up, and, in my bedroom, turned on my ThruNite TN12 (my bedside light). I keep it on 200 Lumens normally, but cranked it up to Max (1100 lumens) and counted. It took 32 seconds for me to stop squinting, and for the first 7 seconds there is no way in hell I could properly engage a BG. YMMV but that's a hard no from me. My Surefire X300 is 500 Lumens (I think they are brighter now, mine is a few years old) and I don't think I'd want any brighter in the house. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. |
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