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Posted: 3/9/2021 10:40:30 PM EDT
[#1]
It's just two pins and takes literally seconds to switch uppers.
No you cannot legally put a pistol upper on a rifle/carbine lower with a stock because that would make it an SBR. Anything under 16" of barrel cannot go onto a lower with a stock without a tax stamp. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 10:41:39 PM EDT
[#2]
It couldn't be any easier to swap out an upper, it's literally just pushing out two pins. No tools required, takes 10 seconds tops.
Switching between pistol and rifle configurations is legal if done properly |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 11:43:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It couldn't be any easier to swap out an upper, it's literally just pushing out two pins. No tools required, takes 10 seconds tops. Switching between pistol and rifle configurations is legal if done properly If you start w/ a pistol, yes. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 11:46:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you start w/ a pistol, yes. Or a stripped lower "other" that becomes a pistol first. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 12:18:05 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's just two pins and takes literally seconds to switch uppers. No you cannot legally put a pistol upper on a rifle/carbine lower with a stock because that would make it an SBR. Anything under 16" of barrel cannot go onto a lower with a stock without a tax stamp. Thanks for the info. So to be under a 16" barrel, I need the silly braced armband Shoulder stock? I have a new to me MP 15-22 and have taken it apart twice now. It seems taking apart and adding another upper should be really easy. Would it be possible to take an upper with a 20" barrel with a scope, geared towards 100-400 yard shooting, then swap out a different upper with a 10" barrel with iron sights or red dot designed for near distance shooting? Would the same completed lower work well with a well built upper for two different purposes? Could the stock also be changed out to be legal for a pistol vs rifle or do I need to buy a pistol and carry over the funky stock for the rifle use? |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 1:03:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the info. So to be under a 16" barrel, I need the silly braced armband Shoulder stock? I have a new to me MP 15-22 and have taken it apart twice now. It seems taking apart and adding another upper should be really easy. Would it be possible to take an upper with a 20" barrel with a scope, geared towards 100-400 yard shooting, then swap out a different upper with a 10" barrel with iron sights or red dot designed for near distance shooting? Would the same completed lower work well with a well built upper for two different purposes? Could the stock also be changed out to be legal for a pistol vs rifle or do I need to buy a pistol and carry over the funky stock for the rifle use? The silly armband braces are not shoulder stocks @ the moment. Unless you pay your $200 tax & get a stamp back from ATF, it is illegal to have a sub-16" bbl rifle w/ a stock. Swapping uppers w/ your MP 15-22 is not easily done, as the lower is not a standard AR lower & does not have a buffer tube, only a stock mounting tube. If you start w/ a pistol lower, w/ your 10" bbl, you can remove your 10" upper, install your 20" upper, and then add a stock to the lower. You could then remove the stock, remove the upper, and reinstall the 10" upper. The lower will work fine regardless of which upper is on it. You may have occasion to swap out buffers for different weights, or change hammer springs depending on the ammunition you're firing w/ that upper. Some of the funky arm braces are easily removed from a carbine buffer, and a carbine stock is easily installed once you have a 16"+ bbl mounted. I would caution you from referring to arm braces as stocks, as ATF can use that as evidence that you intended to build a SBR w/o paying the $200 NFA tax. It may not matter in the clown world we find ourselves in, but if you care to continue to observe the niceties... |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 2:12:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Just to be clear, your M&P 15-22 lower will not work with an AR15 upper, and vice versa.
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Posted: 3/10/2021 7:46:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to be clear, your M&P 15-22 lower will not work with an AR15 upper, and vice versa. Yep got that. Did not plan on altering my MP 15-22. Plan is to keep it for plinking and cheap ammo practice. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 8:25:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The silly armband braces are not shoulder stocks @ the moment. Unless you pay your $200 tax & get a stamp back from ATF, it is illegal to have a sub-16" bbl rifle w/ a stock. Swapping uppers w/ your MP 15-22 is not easily done, as the lower is not a standard AR lower & does not have a buffer tube, only a stock mounting tube. Thanks for all the info. I did not plan on altering my MP15-22. I realize it is just a. 22 replica of an AR. I just mention it to show i am familiar with the platform sort of. The two pin system made it seem like swapping uppers is a simple task which has been confirmed by this post. The question is of legality. With sub 16" barrel i would need to have an arm brace or fed stamp? If it turns out I really like a SBR, I will pay for the stamp. My remaining question is for now is what happens at the aft end of the lower. Unless stamped, under 16" a lower must have an arm brace? A buffer is a tube used to mount an adjustable stock. A fixed stock is also an option. Whatever stock or arm brace is used it needs to be balanced with the barrel and ammo being used. If I have said anything wrong so far let me know. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 9:17:32 AM EDT
[#10]
Oh boy.
I wasn't going to chime in, but... You aren't familiar (enough) with the system. Just accept it. You're still learning terminology. Which is fine, it's a learning curve. First step, just step away from the rifle, sit down, and read. Read the FAQ's on this forum, then over in the SBR (under the Armory section). Then find a manual of arms and at least learn the major components, so that what you read makes more sense. Then just shadow the forum for a week, and you'll realize 90%of all questions are just repeats. Yes, swapping uppers is stupid easy. Yes, you can have 500 uppers and one lower, and swap them out in 5 seconds. No, you can't flip flop between pistol and rifle length (legally), as a general rule. The caveats are there, but just roll with this answer for a few months. Technically you can run any length upper on a pistol lower (which, btw, has nothing to do with the brace). The same can't be said for a rifle lower. Don't add front hand grips or anything yet, as that is involved with the definition as well. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 10:21:32 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh boy. I wasn't going to chime in, but... You aren't familiar (enough) with the system. Just accept it. You're still learning terminology. Which is fine, it's a learning curve. First step, just step away from the rifle, sit down, and read. Read the FAQ's on this forum, then over in the SBR (under the Armory section). Then find a manual of arms and at least learn the major components, so that what you read makes more sense. Then just shadow the forum for a week, and you'll realize 90%of all questions are just repeats. Yes, swapping uppers is stupid easy. Yes, you can have 500 uppers and one lower, and swap them out in 5 seconds. No, you can't flip flop between pistol and rifle length (legally), as a general rule. The caveats are there, but just roll with this answer for a few months. Technically you can run any length upper on a pistol lower (which, btw, has nothing to do with the brace). The same can't be said for a rifle lower. Don't add front hand grips or anything yet, as that is involved with the definition as well. If you start w/ a pistol, you can go pistol > rifle > pistol all day long. If you start w/ a rifle, it goes rifle > pistol > prison. OP, you don't have to have an arm brace on an AR pistol - your alternative is a bare buffer tube. I ran a rifle length buffer tube on my 1st AR pistol, and just rested it over my shoulder like it was a bazooka. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 12:16:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the info. So to be under a 16" barrel, I need the silly braced armband Shoulder stock? I have a new to me MP 15-22 and have taken it apart twice now. It seems taking apart and adding another upper should be really easy. Would it be possible to take an upper with a 20" barrel with a scope, geared towards 100-400 yard shooting, then swap out a different upper with a 10" barrel with iron sights or red dot designed for near distance shooting? Would the same completed lower work well with a well built upper for two different purposes? Could the stock also be changed out to be legal for a pistol vs rifle or do I need to buy a pistol and carry over the funky stock for the rifle use? One day, I was at the range shooting a few of my SBRs another guy and his kid came in, they were shooting an SBR and while talking I asked how long it took to get his stamp? He said what stamp? I said the NFA Stamp your supped to have to have a SBR, SBS, Suppressor or Full Autos.. You didn't go though submitting a Form 1 or Form 4? He said his friend helped him build it and he told him they didn't need no license or anything for it. I said, he is partially right, you don't need a license, but unfortunately to build or buy an SBR you are by law required to fill out and get approval from Uncle Sugar before actually building or buying an NFA item... Then I quickly explained the process, Forms, prints, 200.00 check, CLEO Notify, 6+ month wait, etc.. etc.. I added that I think its 100% Stupid, but I don't make the laws. He was pissed and kinda acted like I was full of shit, so I went and got one of my range bags out of the truck that has a copy of all my NFA forms and showed him. He was like, you mean I gotta pay 2 Hunert dollars for ever one of these things I buy or build. I said, Sadly, for anything that considered NFA yes... I said, I myself do not care, but if you happen to get caught with that, it'd be a federal offense, you'd lose the gun, your 2nd amendment right and possibly do some time... Again, I don't care, just warning you as a fellow gun owner that did not know. The ATF doesn't care that you did not know... They packed up and burnt out of there.. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 1:35:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the info. So to be under a 16" barrel, I need the silly braced armband Shoulder stock? I have a new to me MP 15-22 and have taken it apart twice now. It seems taking apart and adding another upper should be really easy. Would it be possible to take an upper with a 20" barrel with a scope, geared towards 100-400 yard shooting, then swap out a different upper with a 10" barrel with iron sights or red dot designed for near distance shooting? Would the same completed lower work well with a well built upper for two different purposes? Could the stock also be changed out to be legal for a pistol vs rifle or do I need to buy a pistol and carry over the funky stock for the rifle use? You don't "need" the so-called "silly braced armband shoulder stock"...you can run just a bare buffer tube, or a pistol tube (which is basically just a bare buffer tube without the adjustment sluts). What you DO need is a lower that was never originally manufactured as a rifle, OR an SBR stamp. BTW, that "silly braced armband shoulder stock/funky stock" is not a stock. It is a brace. And it is had a MONUMENTAL impact on the firearm industry over the last few years. All rifles have stocks. (meant to be fired from the shoulder) A pistol will never have a stock (meant to be fired one handed) Not all pistols have braces (a pistol is a pistol. A brace does not make a pistol a pistol). A brace helps you hold a pistol with one hand. As other have pointed out, you can start with a pistol and turn it into a rifle, then back into a pistol all day long. If you start with a rifle and turn it into a pistol, you run the risk of being loved tenderly by the ATF. There is a crap ton of goofy laws as well as you have to keep in mind Federal/State/County/City laws depending on where you live, but a big benefit is that your AR pistol usually falls under handgun laws instead of rifle laws. If you start with an AR pistol, you can still SBR it if you so desire. The two push pins are simple. All the laws around "pistol/rifle/sbr/firearm or AOW" can get confusing. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 1:42:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've always wondered how many folks inadvertently made an SBR without knowing the legalities and ramification of it. One day, I was at the range shooting a few of my SBRs another guy and his kid came in, they were shooting an SBR and while talking I asked how long it took to get his stamp? He said what stamp? I said the NFA Stamp your supped to have to have a SBR, SBS, Suppressor or Full Autos.. You didn't go though submitting a Form 1 or Form 4? He said his friend helped him build it and he told him they didn't need no license or anything for it. I said, he is partially right, you don't need a license, but unfortunately to build or buy an SBR you are by law required to fill out and get approval from Uncle Sugar before actually building or buying an NFA item... Then I quickly explained the process, Forms, prints, 200.00 check, CLEO Notify, 6+ month wait, etc.. etc.. I added that I think its 100% Stupid, but I don't make the laws. He was pissed and kinda acted like I was full of shit, so I went and got one of my range bags out of the truck that has a copy of all my NFA forms and showed him. He was like, you mean I gotta pay 2 Hunert dollars for ever one of these things I buy or build. I said, Sadly, for anything that considered NFA yes... I said, I myself do not care, but if you happen to get caught with that, it'd be a federal offense, you'd lose the gun, your 2nd amendment right and possibly do some time... Again, I don't care, just warning you as a fellow gun owner that did not know. The ATF doesn't care that you did not know... They packed up and burnt out of there.. Wouldn't even have wasted my time. If people are not smart enough to research shit that's on them. And my standard response for the self appointed ATF range liaisons that like to police bbl lengths and such is a pretty standard "eat a dick". I could care less what the yahoo next to me at the range does so long as his muzzle is not facing my direction. (Not aimed at you smullen as you were just attempting to be friendly from the sound of things). Too many just want to poke their faces into shit that doesn't concern them these days. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 7:19:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you start w/ a pistol, you can go pistol > rifle > pistol all day long. If you start w/ a rifle, it goes rifle > pistol > prison. OP, you don't have to have an arm brace on an AR pistol - your alternative is a bare buffer tube. I ran a rifle length buffer tube on my 1st AR pistol, and just rested it over my shoulder like it was a bazooka. Agreed, but that lower better be a stripped lower or lower only when he buys it from the FFL. That part can be confusing too - can't buy a rifle, never fire it, throw on a < 16" barrel and state "It's a pistol!" Like I said, it's confusing. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 9:36:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you start w/ a pistol, you can go pistol > rifle > pistol all day long. If you start w/ a rifle, it goes rifle > pistol > prison. OP, you don't have to have an arm brace on an AR pistol - your alternative is a bare buffer tube. I ran a rifle length buffer tube on my 1st AR pistol, and just rested it over my shoulder like it was a bazooka. Thanks all. The problem with researching this is the status of all this is the rules have changed over the years. I checked out an AR15 book from the library written in 2005. It is post Assault Weapon Ban but it appears some rules changed in 2011 and in 2015 and again in 2019 these rules were interpreted differently in regards to pistol brace. I found this which helped bring my info up to speed. https://www.silencercentral.com/blog/sbr-vs-pistol/ I will be looking at a pistol for my first AR. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 10:45:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed, but that lower better be a stripped lower or lower only when he buys it from the FFL. That part can be confusing too - can't buy a rifle, never fire it, throw on a < 16" barrel and state "It's a pistol!" Like I said, it's confusing. No, you can build a pistol on an AR lower that shipped w/ the stock attached, if it has never been assembled as a rifle, and if you remember to take the stock off 1st. |
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Posted: 3/11/2021 2:36:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, you can build a pistol on an AR lower that shipped w/ the stock attached, if it has never been assembled as a rifle, and if you remember to take the stock off 1st. Is this just a matter of your word if you buy just a lower that is was built as a pistol right from the beginning? But if you buy a completed gun the serial number tells what the gun was built as? Either way I am covered. I just won a GB auction for a Saint Victor pistol. I will play around with the pistol format while contemplating/looking for the rifle length upper to purchase. |
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Posted: 3/11/2021 2:51:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this just a matter of your word if you buy just a lower that is was built as a pistol right from the beginning? But if you buy a completed gun the serial number tells what the gun was built as? Either way I am covered. I just won a GB auction for a Saint Victor pistol. I will play around with the pistol format while contemplating/looking for the rifle length upper to purchase. In a sense . If you buy a complete lower that comes with a stock, it SHOULD be marked as an "other" on your 4473. It is then "your word" that you took the 5 seconds needed to pull the stock off before you mated it with an upper. But when I think about it....the 4473 will always say "other".....regardless of you pulling the stock off or not. So it is basically a moot point. When there was a difference in waiting periods for gun purchases (rifles vs pistols), the "others" on the 4473 were treated as pistols anyway...so again...moot point. The laws are silly. The AR15 platform makes them look sillier. Congrats on the pistol. |
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Posted: 3/11/2021 9:31:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, you can build a pistol on an AR lower that shipped w/ the stock attached, if it has never been assembled as a rifle, and if you remember to take the stock off 1st. Which is what I said. The lower can NOT come with an upper. Whether it has a receiver extension and/or stock is irrelevant at the time of purchase. OP, this should help (if it's even correct):  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/11/2021 10:40:21 PM EDT
[#21]
The diagram is correct. Someday I'd love to have a picture of a layout of an AR-15 rifle, pistol, other, shotgun, & an M-16, all of which look nigh identical.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 2:44:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Is there a limit to a buffer length on a pistol? Could you put a longer buffer and end it with a pistol brace with a short barrel and still be legal as a pistol?
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Posted: 3/14/2021 6:15:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there a limit to a buffer length on a pistol? Could you put a longer buffer and end it with a pistol brace with a short barrel and still be legal as a pistol? Up to a point, yes. Then there are theoretical opinions that an arm brace can't extend more than 13.5" from the trigger. This opinion was based on the average length of a, "carbine shoulder stock". There are some issues with that. First an arm brace doesn't have a length of pull, as it isn't measured from the shoulder. The other thing is, a, "carbine" (compact rifle) has nothing to do with handguns or handgun arm braces. Now as far as commercially available buffer tubes, the longest is a fixed stock, "rifle" buffer tube, then an extended A5 carbine buffer tube, that uses a long A5 buffer, which is 3/4" to 1" longer than a standard carbine buffer tube and then there are short pistol buffer tubes that use special short buffers. Then there is the ATF opinion, unwritten, length limit for handgun braces and buffer tubes, that is theoretically 13.5" from the trigger. With a total length of buffer tube to muzzle over 26", attaching a vertical fore grip, converts a handgun to no longer being a handgun. It's tough to make over 26" with less than an 11.5" barrel, especially if limiting buffer tube length. Maybe an AR10 fixed stock buffer tube with a buffer spacer inside could end up the longest buffer tube used. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 6:35:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Long before the pistol brace days, my AR pistol had a rifle buffer tube and a 16" bbl.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:03:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Up to a point, yes. Now as far as commercially available buffer tubes, the longest is a fixed stock, "rifle" buffer tube, then an extended A5 carbine buffer tube, that uses a long A5 buffer, which is 3/4" to 1" longer than a standard carbine buffer tube and then there are short pistol buffer tubes that use special short buffers. Then there is the ATF opinion, unwritten, length limit for handgun braces and buffer tubes, that is theoretically 13.5" from the trigger. Well that is clear as mud. Not blaming you but I actually learned quite a bit from your post. I looked up 'A5 buffers' and saw a demo of what is happening in the buffer tube, I knew there were springs and weights and things but until now I did not really know what they all were doing in there. I kind of understand the other rules kind of but the 'unwritten opinion' of 13.5 inches kind of sucks. My coming pistol will have a 7.5" barrel. I feel kind of out of place with it, like I have no place to shoot it properly. Except for an occasional visit to the rifle bay to shoot my .22 rifle, all my time is spent at the rifle bay. 3 out of 4 of my current guns are .22 and the other is a 9mm pistol. Both my wife and i love shooting the 15-22 at the falling plates and it is almost too easy. But can't shoot the AR at the pistol bay and feel like it will look silly shooting the 7.5" barrel at the rifle bay. I need to get a rifle length upper soon until I can figure out where I can have fun with a rifle ammoed pistol. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:48:32 PM EDT
[#26]
7.5" .223 is LOUD.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 9:14:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 7.5" .223 is LOUD. And fireball is amazing. 
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Posted: 3/14/2021 10:26:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 7.5" .223 is LOUD. I went to the range yesterday to watch the falling plate competition. I was tempted to participate but at my current skills it would have been a waste of expensive ammo. I took a break to go to my car and ran into the range master and talked to him for a bit and told him of my new AR coming. He said the same thing. I have only been back to shooting about two months and initially was affected by the others shooting big rifles down the line from us. THe first time my wife and I were at the range she was enjoying shooting a gun for the very first time, a .22 rifle. The moment I started shooting my 9mm next to her she became uncomfortable. When the guy started shooting a big rifle down the line, she got up and went to the car. It will be interesting to see what shooting my 7.5" barrel AR is like for me. I shot a ton as a kid likely many thousand rounds of ammo, but have never shot a centerfire rifle of any kind unless you count a shotgun. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 11:23:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Get you the biggest flash can KAK makes. Your audiologist will thank me.
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Posted: 3/15/2021 1:46:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get you the biggest flash can KAK makes. Your audiologist will thank me. Would a suppressor be a better investment (I know I would need a stamp) than a flash can? The AR seems to come with an impressive blast diverter. Would I be bettered by buying something from KAK? https://store.springfield-armory.com/Shop/pc/SAINT-Victor-Pistol-Blast-Diverter-p1928.htm |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 6:58:24 AM EDT
[#31]
That would work. A suppressor will do a better job, but a flash can or a linear compensator like you linked to will help.
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Posted: 3/15/2021 11:40:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The diagram is correct. Someday I'd love to have a picture of a layout of an AR-15 rifle, pistol, other, shotgun, & an M-16, all of which look nigh identical.  |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 12:40:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would work. A suppressor will do a better job, but a flash can or a linear compensator like you linked to will help. From the photos the one I ordered should have this linear compensator already. https://www.springfield-armory.com/saint-series/saint-victor-ar-15-pistols/saint-victor-556-ar-15-pistol-b5/ I plan to add an 18" barrel upper on it to try my hand at distance shooting. But if I chose to do so, how would putting a 13.5 or 11" barrel on it as a pistol make it better for shooting as far as accuracy or noise? |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 12:44:09 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the photos the one I ordered should have this linear compensator already. https://www.springfield-armory.com/saint-series/saint-victor-ar-15-pistols/saint-victor-556-ar-15-pistol-b5/ I plan to add an 18" barrel upper on it to try my hand at distance shooting. But if I chose to do so, how would putting a 13.5 or 11" barrel on it as a pistol make it better for shooting as far as accuracy or noise? Also don't know how much this matters but I have 500 rounds of 5.56 and only 40 .223. I imagine the 5.56 will be even louder out of a 7.5" barrel and also a better fireball. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 1:07:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the photos the one I ordered should have this linear compensator already. https://www.springfield-armory.com/saint-series/saint-victor-ar-15-pistols/saint-victor-556-ar-15-pistol-b5/ I plan to add an 18" barrel upper on it to try my hand at distance shooting. But if I chose to do so, how would putting a 13.5 or 11" barrel on it as a pistol make it better for shooting as far as accuracy or noise? 13.5" would improve the ballistics considerably. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 1:40:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Something like this... Grabbed it off the interwebs somewhere. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/335803/Pistol-AOW-SBR_Comparison_1-1866497.jpg That is a better one, mostly because the Firearm vs AOW often gets missed, or mixed up with some state laws. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 1:46:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a better one, mostly because the Firearm vs AOW often gets missed, or mixed up with some state laws. I can't tell but how is the Firearm legal? The "Firearm" appears to be a pistol with a VFG and the AOW appears to be the same thing only 2" shorter. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 2:10:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't tell but how is the Firearm legal? The "Firearm" appears to be a pistol with a VFG and the AOW appears to be the same thing only 2" shorter. Because stupid laws are stupid. A Pistol can NEVER have a 90 degree vertical foregip. However, a Firearm can have one as long as the Overall Length is 26 inches or longer and it does not have a stock. For AR's with mil-spec buffer tubes, the 26" mark is often right at the 11.5" vs 12.5" barrel length (not always, but often...always measure to be sure). So if you slap a VFG on your 11.5" Pistol, you are going to jail because you made an Any Other Weapon. If you slap a VFG on your 12.5" pistol, it becomes a Firearm and you are good to go. But if you then swap your brace for a stock on that 12.5" upper (or 11.5), you are going to jail again....regardless of the VFG because you have made an SBR.......with one caveat. You slap a 16" upper on it. Then you've made a Rifle and you are good to go. Clear as mud? Thanks ATF  To make it even muddier, the only ATF opinion letter on VFG's said that it is 90 degrees from the bore. So is 89 degrees OK? Who knows? I have BCM's on my pistol I think they are 86 degrees or something like that...and they pretty stubby. I use them like hand stops. Some people go this route, some people stick to finger stops or the angled type grips. Too many hoops to jump through. ETA: One more thing. All of that only works if you start with a Pistol/Other. If you start with a Rifle (from the manufacture), you are going to jail if you change it up (or pay for stamps). Another Edit: Folding stocks (or braces) factor in as well...but I can't remember what is what anymore because the ATF recently changed their opinion on something. All I know is that you are not supposed to have an LOP (length of pull) greater than 13.5" inches on a braced pistol...which makes no sense because technically a pistol does not have a stock, does it would not have a length of pull (distance from end of stock to center of trigger). |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:02:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would a suppressor be a better investment (I know I would need a stamp) than a flash can? The AR seems to come with an impressive blast diverter. Would I be bettered by buying something from KAK? https://store.springfield-armory.com/Shop/pc/SAINT-Victor-Pistol-Blast-Diverter-p1928.htm Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Get you the biggest flash can KAK makes. Your audiologist will thank me. Would a suppressor be a better investment (I know I would need a stamp) than a flash can? The AR seems to come with an impressive blast diverter. Would I be bettered by buying something from KAK? https://store.springfield-armory.com/Shop/pc/SAINT-Victor-Pistol-Blast-Diverter-p1928.htm Yes but a 7.5" barrel is going to be very hard on a suppressor. Many aren't even rated for that and it will void the warranty. It's still going to be loud too, just less so. If you want a super short upper under 10" consider .300 blackout instead, it is a much better cartridge for that than 5.56 |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:39:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes but a 7.5" barrel is going to be very hard on a suppressor. Many aren't even rated for that and it will void the warranty. It's still going to be loud too, just less so. If you want a super short upper under 10" consider .300 blackout instead, it is a much better cartridge for that than 5.56 Or 7.62x39mm. 
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:56:55 PM EDT
[#41]
I'm gonna offer you a bit of advice that will take care of all this.
Buy a 16" rifle, put an red dot or prism on it and call it, get a sling and a good light. That is the most versatile set up and can be used in CQB or reach out to 400 yards. If that bores you after a thousand or so rounds of shooting, come back to us. |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 11:15:01 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm gonna offer you a bit of advice that will take care of all this. Buy a 16" rifle, put an red dot or prism on it and call it, get a sling and a good light. That is the most versatile set up and can be used in CQB or reach out to 400 yards. If that bores you after a thousand or so rounds of shooting, come back to us. This! |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 11:59:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm gonna offer you a bit of advice that will take care of all this. Buy a 16" rifle, put an red dot or prism on it and call it, get a sling and a good light. That is the most versatile set up and can be used in CQB or reach out to 400 yards. If that bores you after a thousand or so rounds of shooting, come back to us. This is solid advice....and that was basically my first AR. The only difference is that I purchased a complete upper, and a complete lower separately to get that sweet, sweet, sweet, "Other" designation on my 4473 (instead of "Rifle") even though the lower came with a stock. Takes 5 seconds to remove stock. Take 5 seconds to mate upper and lower. Takes 5 seconds to put stock back on. From "Other", to "Pistol", to "Rifle" in seconds. I branched out from there, but my 16" middy is still one of my favorites. I will add that salad days at PSA made it fairly easy to try different stuff for cheap....can't really do that now. |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 3:16:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm gonna offer you a bit of advice that will take care of all this. Buy a 16" rifle, put an red dot or prism on it and call it, get a sling and a good light. That is the most versatile set up and can be used in CQB or reach out to 400 yards. If that bores you after a thousand or so rounds of shooting, come back to us. My concern was any upcoming legislation might make pistols harder or impossible to get and I wanted to get one under the wire. My plan is to put a 16 or longer inch barrel on it as soon as possible. I may have a chance to rethink my purchase because I have not heard from the guy I won the auction from in a few days and no sign of a tracking number. |
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Posted: 3/17/2021 6:16:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My concern was any upcoming legislation might make pistols harder or impossible to get and I wanted to get one under the wire. My plan is to put a 16 or longer inch barrel on it as soon as possible. I may have a chance to rethink my purchase because I have not heard from the guy I won the auction from in a few days and no sign of a tracking number. If that is your concern, just buy a stripped lower or two. You can always build them up later when you are more comfortable with the platform. I miss the salad days when you could get a stripped lower for $40.00.  Those low prices, and the rules around "other/pistol", coupled with the rise in braces (and IMO, .300blk) is a big part of why we see so many AR pistols today. I've never purchased an AR rifle, even if several of my weapons turned into to rifles basically right away. |
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Posted: 3/18/2021 8:10:45 AM EDT
[#46]
I would buy a few lowers and keep them for later. Most everyone who has been in this hobby for 3 years plus has several lowers and uppers in the safe that have been there for years. And all that switching back and forth sounds good at first, and it looks cool and nifty in your mind and on tv, but the the reality is once you get into this you probably want the complete guns.
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Posted: 3/19/2021 11:46:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If that is your concern, just buy a stripped lower or two. You can always build them up later when you are more comfortable with the platform. I miss the salad days when you could get a stripped lower for $40.00. That is kind of my plan but I am absolutely struggling to understand and even put together a single upper and a back upper and all the parts. After I have that going I would try to make sense of a lower and add a second or more lower. It is hard to keep up, 4 months ago I owned one firearm, next week when my AR arrives I will be up to 5. |
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Posted: 3/20/2021 12:35:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Bravo. It's a pain in the rear to put together an upper if you don't have a vice, and do so by the book requires a calibrated torque wrench. Much easier to buy an upper already assembled. Lowers take 20 minutes or less w/ a few simple & inexpensive tools.
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Posted: 3/21/2021 12:29:23 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bravo. It's a pain in the rear to put together an upper if you don't have a vice, and do so by the book requires a calibrated torque wrench. Much easier to buy an upper already assembled. Lowers take 20 minutes or less w/ a few simple & inexpensive tools. I have a heavy vice and 3 torque wrenches from inch lbs to 100+ ft/lbs. I have the vice to hold an upper but have not bought a receiver rod yet. I have a drill press and all sorts of drills. If the upper was made of wood this would be easy work for me but if and when the parts are in hand, I don't feel comfortable, I have found an armory 2 hours away I can get to build the new upper for me. |
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Posted: 3/21/2021 10:14:02 AM EDT
[#50]
If you're putting together an upper w/o a receiver rod, I believe the technique is to clamp the bbl and go slow. The problem is you're loading the aluminum notch in the upper w/ the steel indexing pin on the bbl.
An ideal setup would have 3 vices inline - a vice holding the reaction rod, one holding an upper shell clamp, and a third clamped on the bbl. |
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