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Posted: 4/4/2020 7:48:16 PM EDT
This is a pretty noob question I guess, so bare with me. I shot these groups on Friday from 50 yards with my PSA AR with LaRue MBT trigger and Holosun HS510c red dot, using wolf gold. They seem to be pretty close to zeroed, but how close is good enough to consider it zeroed? Do I need a rest to ensure the rifle isn't moving at all in order to really zero it? This group was the best but seems to be just barely high and right of the X, but that easily could have been me.
 Here's another group that's not quite as tight, but seems to be more centered around the X  How do I know when I'm close enough? |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 7:54:14 PM EDT
[#1]
It depends. What's your 'mission'? What's it going to be used for? What targets? What distances? What situations?
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:03:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Can't see the pics
Definitely use a rest and shoot five shot groups. "Good enough" should probably not be your goal. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:12:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It depends. What's your 'mission'? What's it going to be used for? What targets? What distances? What situations? This is currently my only rifle, so it's a do-it-all for now. Most important would be HD, so I know pinpoint accuracy isn't essential for that. But I'd like to be able to shoot decent groups at the range, and have it be accurate for longer range shots in case of the big igloo. I used a piece of wood and this U-shaped leather/foam thing to rest the rifle on, so I tried to eliminate myself from the equation as much as possible. But my eyesight isn't perfect, and I'm a fairly new shooter so I'm sure my trigger control could use some improvement as well. I guess what I'm wondering, is do I need to mechanically tie the gun down to be sure it's aimed at the exact same spot every time, and then adjust the optic from there? Or is where it's currently at "good enough", considering it's a PSA nitrided barrel and wolf gold? |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:18:25 PM EDT
[#4]
If you can drill a paper plate at 100yds it’s “good enough” for HD. Good enough to drop a man size target from 0 to 100yds anyway.
...and it appears you and your rifle can do it. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:18:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't see the pics Definitely use a rest and shoot five shot groups. "Good enough" should probably not be your goal. I uploaded the pics to a different site, do they work for you now? |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:20:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Pics are good, I'd be happy with it!
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:21:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I uploaded the pics to a different site, do they work for you now? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can't see the pics Definitely use a rest and shoot five shot groups. "Good enough" should probably not be your goal. I uploaded the pics to a different site, do they work for you now? Yep, working now The first pic appears as if you needed to come down a click or two depending on your optic. The second pic looks right on the money. Two in the center and three surrounding the center two about equally. First pic looks to be about a 1" group which isn't too bad at all. Obviously, when you switch ammo types, your group sizes and point of impact can and will change depending on bullet weight and manufacturer. You've reached your zero when you're groups are all consistently as close to the center as possible. Doesn't mean "good enough" but rather you have reached your rifles full potential with given ammo and/or your abilities. "Good enough" would have been if you left your optic alone after the top target pic you posted and didn't bother to adjust your optic down a few clicks. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:24:13 PM EDT
[#8]
if just judging by the first group, i'd bring it left and down slightly. second group looks fine though
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:25:47 PM EDT
[#9]
I'd go hunting with that rifle as it is.
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:30:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Verify the rifle at longer ranges if there is a chance you need to shoot longer shots. For HD that is G2G.
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:31:17 PM EDT
[#11]
You'll always get a better zero with at least a front rest but at 50 yards that's gooder enough.
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:32:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can drill a paper plate at 100yds it’s “good enough” for HD. Good enough to drop a man size target from 0 to 100yds anyway. ...and it appears you and your rifle can do it. Those are pretty low standards, but it really depends on your purpose, yea with paper plate zero you can hunt deer, maybe Elk. But I'd never do it, depends on what your rife is rated at MOA, if you can't get at least twice the MOA it can shoot. You need to work on it. My Elk 300winmag, has a 1.5 MOA, I have my ability up to 1.75 MOA. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:36:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Depends on your personality, OP. I’m a perfectionist when it comes to zeroes... I don’t feel like it’s truly “zeroed” until I’ve punched the center X out of several targets.
Then I’ll go home. Then I’ll start thinking about the fliers. Then I’ll feel like it’s not quite perfect. Realistically, if your gun can keep it on a torso at XYZ yards, you’re G2G. But that doesn’t mean your personality will be satisfied with that. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:42:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on your personality, OP. I’m a perfectionist when it comes to zeroes... I don’t feel like it’s truly “zeroed” until I’ve punched the center X out of several targets. Then I’ll go home. Then I’ll start thinking about the fliers. Then I’ll feel like it’s not quite perfect. Realistically, if your gun can keep it on a torso at XYZ yards, you’re G2G. But that doesn’t mean your personality will be satisfied with that. Should I be expecting to be able to punch out the X with a PSA nitride barrel and wolf gold? Obviously I'm not perfect, but idk how much of the spread was due to me vs the gun/ammo I'd like to get some kind of way to strap the gun down to be sure it's physically aimed at the same spot every time in order to take me out of the equation |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:50:10 PM EDT
[#15]
With groups like those shown I'd say it is zeroed. If they are all like the first group, then you need to go another click or two left.
Now you need to double check it at max range to be sure it isn't veering off to the side due to a mis-aligned mount, etc. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:55:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should I be expecting to be able to punch out the X with a PSA nitride barrel and wolf gold? Obviously I'm not perfect, but idk how much of the spread was due to me vs the gun/ammo n Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Depends on your personality, OP. I’m a perfectionist when it comes to zeroes... I don’t feel like it’s truly “zeroed” until I’ve punched the center X out of several targets. Then I’ll go home. Then I’ll start thinking about the fliers. Then I’ll feel like it’s not quite perfect. Realistically, if your gun can keep it on a torso at XYZ yards, you’re G2G. But that doesn’t mean your personality will be satisfied with that. Should I be expecting to be able to punch out the X with a PSA nitride barrel and wolf gold? Obviously I'm not perfect, but idk how much of the spread was due to me vs the gun/ammo n Your not going to be able to do that regardless. That gun and that ammo are not capable of consistently going through the same hole. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 8:59:28 PM EDT
[#17]
You're probably good. I like to shoot from a rest with rear bag while zeroing. Makes it easier to keep everything steady. Red dots are harder to shoot accurately than magnified scopes. Personally with my 1-6x pn my SBR, I'm only good for about 2MOA.
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Posted: 4/4/2020 9:04:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Shooting groups with a bench rest where you are taking yourself out of the equation, is a good thing to do to test the rifle, barrel, and ammo combination. However, the point of impact from the bench may not (and usually isn't) the same as when you hold the rifle in normal shooting positions. The reason is that the rifle actually moves somewhat before the bullet leaves the barrel. Different holds can change how the rifle moves during this time. The difference is normally small, but often significant enough. For instance, I know that my prone point of impact is quite different than my standing with just about every rifle I have.
Once you know what the rifle and ammo can do, then you do work to get your real world holds to come close to that standard. When you have been shooting long enough, you can call your shots. That is, you know that when the trigger broke your point of aim was not on center, but you have a good feel for which direction and how much off it was. When you check your target, you find your bullet hole pretty much where you thought it went. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 9:13:15 PM EDT
[#19]
I just measured the groups and it looks like they're about 1" and 1.5"
  So I think they're decently spaced, I guess I just don't know where the exact center is. I guess the only way I can determine this is to find a way to strap the gun down so that it doesn't move at all from shot to shot? |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 9:13:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should I be expecting to be able to punch out the X with a PSA nitride barrel and wolf gold? Obviously I'm not perfect, but idk how much of the spread was due to me vs the gun/ammo I'd like to get some kind of way to strap the gun down to be sure it's physically aimed at the same spot every time in order to take me out of the equation |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 9:52:43 PM EDT
[#21]
OP ,,You're good IMHO. Man sized target is going down. That doesn't mean you can't get a LOT better. Here's my minimum required per my son to go shoot my first PRS match. This is at 500. I worked hard to get this and my equipment is top notch and expensive.
 With my iron sight ARs I can't remotely do this at 100 much less 500. |
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Posted: 4/4/2020 10:05:59 PM EDT
[#22]
I did some handguard swaping on my "go to" gun before all this panic business started. I hadn't really gotten around to verifying and re-zeroing it till a few days ago. We had some pretty weather and the yard was dry. From the well house to my pistol target just happens to be 100 yards dead on per my range finder. I put up an IDPA target for each rifle I was checking and stapled a 25 yards calibrated for 100 yards target on each. Put the shooting mat and sandbags in the back of the truck and Dad drove forward till I hollered for 25 yards. Got everything tuned in easily sense they weren't off by much, those return to zero scope mounts are worth every dime. Then we drove down to the well house and I aimed at the white paster in the middle of the head of the IDPA target for each rifle. Drove back up and all the rounds were in or very close to the paster.
So big fan of the truck bed shooting platform 
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Posted: 4/5/2020 1:33:54 AM EDT
[#23]
With ball ammo, I'd adjust after 10 shot groups until the group center is consistently within a 0.5 MOA radius of target center.
If groups are 3 MOA spread or larger, I'd accept the group center within 1 MOA radius of target center. +1 on averaging zero from different positions. |
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Posted: 4/5/2020 2:07:22 AM EDT
[#24]
So I feel like I should be pretty happy with a <1" group at 50 yards with a red dot, right? I mean that's less than 2 MOA (I think?), how much better can my rifle with a red dot and wolf gold do? I guess the next step is to find a way to secure the gun so I can get my POI centered exactly at the X? Would something like this help?
https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Adjustable-Ambidextrous-Shotgun-Shooting/dp/B000VZ1IJG/ref=lp_5744201011_1_8?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1586066681&sr=1-8 Or should I just be happy with where I'm at? This is actually the first rifle I've tried to zero so I just want to make sure I'm doing it right |
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Posted: 4/5/2020 2:41:41 AM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 4/5/2020 11:46:12 AM EDT
[#26]
This is like a 1-inch group at 500 yards? So you're getting roughly 0.20 MOA. That's impressive! That's also more than 2x better than the M91A2.
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Posted: 4/5/2020 12:21:37 PM EDT
[#27]
I'd say it's good
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Posted: 4/5/2020 3:32:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Looks good to me.
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Posted: 4/5/2020 3:45:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Zeroing for accuracy with one type of ammunition may not zero with another.
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Posted: 4/5/2020 4:06:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP ,,You're good IMHO. Man sized target is going down. That doesn't mean you can't get a LOT better. Here's my minimum required per my son to go shoot my first PRS match. This is at 500. I worked hard to get this and my equipment is top notch and expensive. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/192769/300_yards-1242290.jpg With my iron sight ARs I can't remotely do this at 100 much less 500. I didn't think such a group was possible at 500 yards, even if the rifle was bolted down, no wind and all equipment dialed in. They are literally touching. More details? |
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Posted: 4/5/2020 4:15:40 PM EDT
[#31]
You have great targets for zeroing the rifle at 25 metres along with instructions here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Improved-25M-AR15A2-A3-A4-and-AR15-Carbine-Zero-Targets-Calibrated-for-50-200M-100M-300M/18-556355/
You can't go wrong with these. |
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Posted: 4/5/2020 11:04:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP ,,You're good IMHO. Man sized target is going down. That doesn't mean you can't get a LOT better. Here's my minimum required per my son to go shoot my first PRS match. This is at 500. I worked hard to get this and my equipment is top notch and expensive. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/192769/300_yards-1242290.jpg With my iron sight ARs I can't remotely do this at 100 much less 500. Amazing |
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Posted: 4/6/2020 3:45:49 PM EDT
[#33]
OP - Are you trying to achieve a 100-yard zero? I am pretty new to this myself and I believe that if you want a 100-yard zero, you will want to adjust so that your POI is a little low at 50. With this, you have to hold under between 0-100 yards, and then hold over from 100 yards on out....
There's a lot of personal preference and debate as to what is the best "zero" distance. There used to be a guy on here called Molon who did a very good job of describing all this stuff. Here are a couple links I bookmarked: HeathenSystems link ammoland link Best Regards. |
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Posted: 4/6/2020 3:58:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't think such a group was possible at 500 yards, even if the rifle was bolted down, no wind and all equipment dialed in. They are literally touching. More details? Many of the TOP shooters in the PRS can do this and better on demand. I admittedly am NOT one of the top shooters lol. This was done from a bench with a rear bag and bipod in zero wind conditions. Trigger is Diamond set at 2 lbs. .308 turtle round but the action /barrel is built by the THE .308 guy in the country IMHO. |
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Posted: 4/6/2020 5:19:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Groups are good besides, I wouldn't chase groups with Wolf. If you can be 2-3" at a hundy, you are good to go.
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Posted: 4/6/2020 9:51:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP ,,You're good IMHO. Man sized target is going down. That doesn't mean you can't get a LOT better. Here's my minimum required per my son to go shoot my first PRS match. This is at 500. I worked hard to get this and my equipment is top notch and expensive. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/192769/300_yards-1242290.jpg With my iron sight ARs I can't remotely do this at 100 much less 500. Please elaborate on your rig...…………...this is FIVE HUNDRED yards?? gotdam son |
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Posted: 4/6/2020 11:20:10 PM EDT
[#37]
That is a thoroughly acceptable group with that ammo and weapon setup. I'd be willing to bet money that 95% of AR owners couldn't do any better.
You have a battle rifle meant to shoot people in a gun fight, not a range toy or paper puncher that you can (or would) spend five minutes + to take a shot with. This forum has some truly gifted shooters who have nice gear, EXPERIENCE, and are shooting under circumstances you or I would never want to duplicate, much less would be able to duplicate in a SHTF scenario. So, it's important to keep a sense of perspective and to not let the Michael Jordans of the shooting sports (especially the fake ones) be your point of reference when deciding if your gun is setup properly for the role you designated for it. In short, that is acceptable for your purposes. Now, whether you should be zeroing at 50 yards (read: whether you have a true zero) is a different can of worms. :-) |
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Posted: 4/7/2020 7:12:10 AM EDT
[#38]
Looks good enough to me. I like a 50/200 zero, but I zero at 200 and it is “on” at 50. Not the other way around. This is not based in any kind of actual applicable experience, and is just an opinion based on my warm and fuzzy feeling about rifle zero.
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Posted: 4/7/2020 7:38:37 AM EDT
[#39]
Shooting tiny little groups is an art unto itself.If shooters were 1/2 as honest as fishermen most would admit they can't CONSISTENTLY shoot less than moa.
What you have done,OP,is perfectly adequate for it's intended purpose. |
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Posted: 4/7/2020 8:53:31 AM EDT
[#40]
To me that's a good zero. Remember your using a 2moa red dot so at 50 yards your going to be off a inch or so. Just my 2 cents
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Posted: 4/7/2020 2:42:14 PM EDT
[#41]
That looks just fine. If future groups seem to bias one direction you can do a one click change, but at that point, with that setup and ammo... You already saw that between two groups the results will vary more than the adjustment you'd make. Even with higher end stuff and better ammo that's getting into the "was it the lighting and breeze right then or should I change it?" My 223 Remington 700 is pretty accurate, and right now at 200 yards the zero is between clicks. I'm just a hair low with my preferred load in normal weather conditions, but if I do one click UP I'm actually just as far if not farther above the point of aim. It's not an AR with a high sight over bore but it's high enough that I'm as high at 100 as I want to be, don't wanna bias high at 200 and be even higher. If I was anal enough I'd fine tune things in the setup to get right on, but honestly why bother?
When zeroing with a red dot I tend to fire multiple groups and larger round counts once I think I'm dialed in. You are really just trying to find the average impact point more than some mythical exact spot you're zeroed for. |
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Posted: 4/7/2020 8:05:13 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP - Are you trying to achieve a 100-yard zero? I am pretty new to this myself and I believe that if you want a 100-yard zero, you will want to adjust so that your POI is a little low at 50. With this, you have to hold under between 0-100 yards, and then hold over from 100 yards on out.... There's a lot of personal preference and debate as to what is the best "zero" distance. There used to be a guy on here called Molon who did a very good job of describing all this stuff. Here are a couple links I bookmarked: HeathenSystems link ammoland link Best Regards. Nope, I'm going for a 50 yard zero. Seems to be the best option for me anyway I think I'm pretty happy where I'm at for now, maybe I'll buy a bipod or some kind of rest in the future, but this should be fine for the time being |
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Posted: 4/8/2020 11:40:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Zeroing for accuracy with one type of ammunition may not zero with another. This, and even between various lots of the same ammo... a good "extreme" example is the "Newer" LC loaded Norma 55gr FMJ v. the Older RUAG loaded Norma 55gr FMJ. Thats why we have adjustable sights on our rifles... Lol |
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Posted: 4/8/2020 1:24:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please elaborate on your rig...…………...this is FIVE HUNDRED yards?? gotdam son 
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Posted: 4/8/2020 11:43:15 PM EDT
[#45]
looks good
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Posted: 4/13/2020 3:15:13 AM EDT
[#46]
When the center of your group is closer to the center of the target than the click adjustment on your sights or optic, you're done.
Judging by your pics, you're there. |
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Posted: 4/13/2020 3:32:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on your personality, OP. I’m a perfectionist when it comes to zeroes... I don’t feel like it’s truly “zeroed” until I’ve punched the center X out of several targets. Then I’ll go home. Then I’ll start thinking about the fliers. Then I’ll feel like it’s not quite perfect. Realistically, if your gun can keep it on a torso at XYZ yards, you’re G2G. But that doesn’t mean your personality will be satisfied with that. This is me (benched). Never perfect but close more times than not. I can mostly walk away without it ripping my guts later. Just one of those deals. All but one are zeroed at 50m. The "one" is at 100m. |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 3:57:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Looks good OP. Turn down your red dot to the lowest you can see so you’re blooming less on the lens. It’ll help tighten your groups up. Bagging the rifle on a table or a Lead Sled will reduce your bias and let you find the mechanical accuracy of the rifle.
Realize different ammo will pattern different and different ranges will raise or lower your groups POI. Weather conditions will add variables. Getting to know that rifle with specific loads will give you more trust in your capabilities. |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 10:34:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: This is a pretty noob question I guess, so bare with me. I shot these groups on Friday from 50 yards with my PSA AR with LaRue MBT trigger and Holosun HS510c red dot, using wolf gold. They seem to be pretty close to zeroed, but how close is good enough to consider it zeroed? Do I need a rest to ensure the rifle isn't moving at all in order to really zero it? This group was the best but seems to be just barely high and right of the X, but that easily could have been me. https://i.imgur.com/OehBX0p.jpg Here's another group that's not quite as tight, but seems to be more centered around the X https://i.imgur.com/kgxPCRq.jpg How do I know when I'm close enough? Very good shooting at 50. |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 10:35:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP ,,You're good IMHO. Man sized target is going down. That doesn't mean you can't get a LOT better. Here's my minimum required per my son to go shoot my first PRS match. This is at 500. I worked hard to get this and my equipment is top notch and expensive. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/192769/300_yards-1242290.jpg With my iron sight ARs I can't remotely do this at 100 much less 500. Amazing at 500. |
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