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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:33:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2018 10:20:11 AM EST by Melvin_Johnson]
This morning I loaded everything up and headed for the hills to try out the new Hornady 190gr Sub-X 300BLK in organic ballistic gel. I wanted to try the new bullet through FBI spec clothing as well as through auto glass.

I used VYSE gel that was calibrated with a BB traveling 581fps. The BB penetrated right where it was supposed to so I didn't take any additional BB gun shots.



The ammo used was actually the TAP version of the new Sub-X load. But I called Hornday Customer Service and the fellow I spoke with told me the TAP load is the same as the civilian stuff.

Now before I get too far I want to warn you that my windshield test probably isn't going to be up to FBI standard. I used a windshield from the junk yard and leaned it back at a 45° angle but didn't turn it at 15° as is called for. The windshield was already curved across its face so I just shot it straight on as best as I could. Was I shooting at 15 degrees? I'm not sure.

Also, given the height of the windshield and the little table I had to set my gel on, I wasn't able to chronograph the windshield shots. I did chronograph the shots through clothing however. More on that in just a minute.

I fired two rounds through auto glass at the block that was covered with layer of cotton t-shirt as well as cotton shirt--FBI light clothing. The gel and clothing layer was set 18" back from the target area of the glass. One bullet was recovered without issue and stayed in the block. The other went low and exited out the bottom corner of the block. It was not recovered.

Here is the bullet recovered from the glass test. It mushroomed well but lost about 30 grains of weight. Penetration was 11.75 inches.







Next up were two rounds through denim covered by insulation and two layers of cotton--the FBI heavy clothing spec. I did chronograph the shots through clothing but only was able to capture velocity for one bullet. That reading was 1,096 fps.

One bullet through clothing sort of tore rather than mushroomed. It lost about 30 grains of weight and penetrated to 17.25 inches.




The other bullet through clothing shed most of its nose and lost quite a bit of weight. As a result the penetration was only 14 inches.



Here are both bullets recovered from the clothing test. The bullet that shed the most weight is on the bottom.



Misc crap from the wound tracks.



The bullet that shed its nose has a small "finger" on one side. Not counting that little wing, the bullet has a diameter of .331 inch.

The bullet that penetrated the deepest and retained more weight is .529" at its widest.



And, finally, I tried to chrono an additional four rounds to get at least some sense of the average velocities. I only caught one additional reading. That was 1,077 fps.

The rifle used was a Ruger SR556TD. 1X7 twist 16" barrel with my AAC 762-SDN-6 attached. Gel was shot at ten feet with clothing and 11ft 6inches with windshield.

Overall, a slightly frustrating experiment. I am disappointed with my lack of chronograph data. Also, I wish I'd have been able to recover that other bullet from the glass test. Maybe I'll try the test again next weeekend.
Link Posted: 2/19/2018 4:59:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2018 5:00:25 PM EST by Muricha]
Many thanks, that’s allot of effort.
My Midway back ordered hasn’t shipped yet.

Seems plenty capable of a good home self defense load for my 8.5” pistol.

What distance were your tests?
What are your thoughts on hunting within 100 yards deer size target?

I’ve yet to take a whitetail with a sub load but this may be a game changer.
Link Posted: 2/19/2018 6:29:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Muricha:
Many thanks, that’s allot of effort.
My Midway back ordered hasn’t shipped yet.

Seems plenty capable of a good home self defense load for my 8.5” pistol.

What distance were your tests?
What are your thoughts on hunting within 100 yards deer size target?

I’ve yet to take a whitetail with a sub load but this may be a game changer.
View Quote
Sorry. I edited by original post to include shooting distance.

I am not yet sure this load will be "the answer" with regard to subsonic 300BLK. Maybe there simply is no answer since we're wanting a big heavy rifle bullet that will expand like a pistol bullet. I'm just not sure it can be done with conventional cored and jacketed bullets.
Link Posted: 2/20/2018 8:56:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2018 9:13:33 AM EST by DevL]
Those are pretty respectable results. Also to be expected since Hornady prioritises penetration, even through auto glass, over expansion in recent rifle projectile designs. Anything over .355 makes it beat 147 FMJ from the MP5-SD and any minimum over .45 beats a 230 grain FMJ from a 1911. I dont think you are going to be getting consistent >.50" expanded diameter and auto glass penetration and performance at the same time. A consistent .45-.55" is about the best you can hope for if you want auto glass performance. At least with a lead core construction. Are you sure that 11.75" didnt have any bounce back in the gel? A single round .25" short of 12" is still right in the pocket. Obvious they shot for exactly 12" performance. They 14" performance is also right in the wheel house on the heavy clothing. We can only hope the single failure round will be a rarity, but the penetration and obvious yaw made the wound larger than the expanded diameter and penetration did not exceed 18" so that is also good.

If the bullets hold their claim of 1-200m performance envelope I think it is a game changer for affordable subsonic .300 bullet design.

Our duty .223 round from last year, the 64 grain power point soft point non bonded, only did 8" penetration in auto glass.
Link Posted: 2/20/2018 9:17:12 AM EST
We need a comparison between similar weight bullets from other manufacturers to see which would do better. Have only seen a few and so far, the Hornady is doing the job right. Price is good with the Hornady also. Unless someone shows me a better bullet at this weight for subs, my money is going with Hornady.
Link Posted: 2/20/2018 10:18:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2018 10:20:49 AM EST by Melvin_Johnson]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DevL:
Those are pretty respectable results. Also to be expected since Hornady prioritises penetration, even through auto glass, over expansion in recent rifle projectile designs. Anything over .355 makes it beat 147 FMJ from the MP5-SD and any minimum over .45 beats a 230 grain FMJ from a 1911. I dont think you are going to be getting consistent >.50" expanded diameter and auto glass penetration and performance at the same time. A consistent .45-.55" is about the best you can hope for if you want auto glass performance. At least with a lead core construction. Are you sure that 11.75" didnt have any bounce back in the gel? A single round .25" short of 12" is still right in the pocket. Obvious they shot for exactly 12" performance. They 14" performance is also right in the wheel house on the heavy clothing. We can only hope the single failure round will be a rarity, but the penetration and obvious yaw made the wound larger than the expanded diameter and penetration did not exceed 18" so that is also good.

Our duty .223 round from last year, the 64 grain power point soft point non bonded, only did 8" penetration in auto glass.
View Quote
I like the 300BLK but think it is at its best with ammo like the Barnes 110gr TAC-TX or Hornady 110gr GMX.

Don't get me wrong. I think the load is pretty respectable given the choice of what else is out there. We're shooting something that's got the weight and velocity of a 45 ACP but with a trajectory that should allow for threat engagement at ranges that easily exceed what's possible with a handgun.
Link Posted: 2/20/2018 10:23:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DevL:

If the bullets hold their claim of 1-200m performance envelope I think it is a game changer for affordable subsonic .300 bullet design.
View Quote
A quick test in Clear Gel. The OP pulled a Sub-X and loaded it to lower muzzle velocity
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 6:11:11 PM EST
Not bad, but I expected a little better
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 6:19:01 PM EST
Looks like it did well in a disappointing fashion.
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 6:33:55 PM EST
I think I'll stick with the Lehigh 194G ME.
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 6:37:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Minnesotadude:
Looks like it did well in a disappointing fashion.
View Quote
Yes and no. The bullets did expand just not like we have become accustomed to seeing from stuff like TBBC and Speer Gold Dot.

I'd have preferred to see the recovered bullets closer to 100% retained weight but the penetration was still within the FBI specs so we're good in that regard.
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 6:37:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By swampvol:
I think I'll stick with the Lehigh 194G ME.
View Quote
What do these do against windshields?
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 6:47:35 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:

What do these do against windshields?
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No clue, but I would guess not too good.

Doesn't matter because for what I use subs for there will never be an instance where I'd need to shoot through a windshield.
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 7:06:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By swampvol:

No clue, but I would guess not too good.

Doesn't matter because for what I use subs for there will never be an instance where I'd need to shoot through a windshield.
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Some noted ballisticians, such as Doc Roberts, equate good performance against safety glass to good performance against bone.
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 9:27:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:

Some noted ballisticians, such as Doc Roberts, equate good performance against safety glass to good performance against bone.
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I wasn't aware of that.

FF to about 15:30 in this video then.

Link Posted: 2/21/2018 10:44:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By swampvol:
I think I'll stick with the Lehigh 194G ME.
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The lehigh cost $39.80 per box of loaded ammo. the Hornady cost $22.90 per box. I'll stick with Hornady!
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 11:28:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2018 11:40:00 PM EST by swampvol]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bearcat24:

The lehigh cost $39.80 per box of loaded ammo. the Hornady cost $22.90 per box. I'll stick with Hornady!
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No doubt that it's crazy expensive, but its not like I shoot a ton of it. Hardly any, actually.

I only use it to top off my loaded mag in my bedside gun with 6 rounds followed by 24 110g supers, and 3 additional mags that are loaded with supers only. I do this for the noise reduction suppressed and a little less worry about over penetration.

I'll probably only shoot a box a year just cycling through the mags.

A lot of people think mixing ammo is stupid, and that's fine. A lot of people think using subs for SD/HD is stupid period, and that's fine as well.
Link Posted: 2/21/2018 11:39:16 PM EST
BTW, thanks for taking the time and effort to conduct the test OP.
Link Posted: 2/24/2018 7:32:56 PM EST
Okay. Two more through glass and into gel covered with light clothing. One bullet went about 9 inches and came out the side of the block. The bullet was found probably 6 inches away. That bullet now weighs 153.5 grains and mushroomed well.

The other bullet penetrated to 15 inches and weighs 167.3 grains. It doesn't look very pretty but I think it would have done the job.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
Link Posted: 2/27/2018 7:40:12 PM EST
Thanks for all the effort! Good info!
Link Posted: 2/28/2018 9:55:46 AM EST
Thank OP, love scientific testing.
Link Posted: 3/8/2018 1:44:12 PM EST
Great work. Thanks for posting.
Link Posted: 3/8/2018 1:51:08 PM EST
If we donate to you would you be able to buy a junked car door?
Link Posted: 3/8/2018 1:58:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
If we donate to you would you be able to buy a junked car door?
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I have been wondering about trying to replicate the FBI sheet metal test. I can't imagine it would be hard to make a frame to hold two sheets of thin sheet metal. And I can probably get some sheet metal scraps that are 10X12 or whatever without too much hassle.
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