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Posted: 1/6/2019 2:31:06 PM EDT
I have a variety of 556/223 ammunition for my ARs

What is the preferred HD ammo taking a 10.5" barrel into consideration.

Your opinions please
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 2:32:48 PM EDT
[#1]
64gr Gold Dot or 62gr Fusion. Or any 75-77gr BTHP
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 2:40:56 PM EDT
[#2]
I have a bunch of 55gr Gold Dots
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 3:03:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Heavy OTM, bonded mid-weight, or monolithic copper loads will all be devastating. Consider whether barrier penetration is important to you and pick one your barrel likes. People will argue ad nauseam over the specific loading.

ETA I like IMI 77gr and TSX 62gr.
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 3:19:26 PM EDT
[#4]
62gr Fushions for me with an 11.5”, and my son uses them for hog hunting with a 10.5” too. (I use a 6.8 for hogs.)
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 5:00:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Heavy OTM, bonded mid-weight, or monolithic copper loads will all be devastating. Consider whether barrier penetration is important to you and pick one your barrel likes. People will argue ad nauseam over the specific loading.

ETA I like IMI 77gr and TSX 62gr.
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Quoted:
Heavy OTM, bonded mid-weight, or monolithic copper loads will all be devastating. Consider whether barrier penetration is important to you and pick one your barrel likes. People will argue ad nauseam over the specific loading.

ETA I like IMI 77gr and TSX 62gr.
Quoted:
64gr Gold Dot or 62gr Fusion. Or any 75-77gr BTHP
This

I prefer MK262 or it clones. At the moment I am using IMI 77gr. Mainly because the 77gr bullets are more accurate. I like to use my HD SBR in some tactical matches and using the same ammo for training and HD makes sense.

I wouldn't use any bullet less than 62 grains for HD, except for 50gr TSX. Nor would I use any FMG or TMJ for HD. Soft points or OTMs have great performance TSX any weight is a great HD bullet.
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 5:47:14 PM EDT
[#6]
IMI 77gr Razor Core mk262 clone

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pzicw0Q8HRg

I would be confident with and use 62gr Fusion as well.
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 8:28:08 PM EDT
[#7]
At short range it doesn’t really matter, and any of today’s plethora of available duty oriented rounds likely work interchangeably. I use 75gr gold dots or 77gr TMKs for hunting and bedside duty. Last time we did this thread, and we do them a lot of you’ll search the sub-forum, it was generally agreed that Gold Dots and Fusions probably are the best all around choice, and TMKs are some of the most destructive, albeit with a loss of some barrier blind abilities. Other fine answers include Barnes, PDX, and to a lesser (IMO) extent heavy OTMs like 75gr Hornady and 77gr SMK.

Again, at short range, pick a winner and call it a day. Most of the difference is academic, and won’t be noticed in actual use inside any reasonable defensive range.
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 9:38:12 PM EDT
[#8]
MK318 if you can find it.
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 9:38:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 9:54:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Within HD distance of let’s say 25 yards max then 55gr FMJ is plenty good.

If you foresee shooting further than that then 77 gr IMI razorcore is what you seek.
Link Posted: 1/6/2019 10:08:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Within HD distance of let’s say 25 yards max then 55gr FMJ is plenty good.

If you foresee shooting further than that then 77 gr IMI razorcore is what you seek.
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There are few that spout this on this site, but all of the .mil and defense scientists say otherwise. If 55gr FMJ or XM193 is so good, then why does no major military use it in deployment. Sure, the bad guys will die, but they might not die for a while and can shoot back. Real self defense ammo will do much more damage and are more likely to kill bad guys quicker. Read the ammo oracle and articles from Dr. Gary Roberts.  And don't tell me because you cant afford real SD ammo. IMI 77, CBC 77 are all 50cpr. You don't need 10,000 rounds. A few mags of the good stuff will be fine.

The 55gr bulk is fine for SHTF. I keep several thousand rounds handy, but my go to mags have a real SD cartridge loaded.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 1:01:19 AM EDT
[#12]
BH 77gr TMK
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 1:05:47 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There are few that spout this on this site, but all of the .mil and defense scientists say otherwise. If 55gr FMJ or XM193 is so good, then why does no major military use it in deployment. Sure, the bad guys will die, but they might not die for a while and can shoot back. Real self defense ammo will do much more damage and are more likely to kill bad guys quicker. Read the ammo oracle and articles from Dr. Gary Roberts.  And don't tell me because you cant afford real SD ammo. IMI 77, CBC 77 are all 50cpr. You don't need 10,000 rounds. A few mags of the good stuff will be fine.

The 55gr bulk is fine for SHTF. I keep several thousand rounds handy, but my go to mags have a real SD cartridge loaded.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Within HD distance of let’s say 25 yards max then 55gr FMJ is plenty good.

If you foresee shooting further than that then 77 gr IMI razorcore is what you seek.
There are few that spout this on this site, but all of the .mil and defense scientists say otherwise. If 55gr FMJ or XM193 is so good, then why does no major military use it in deployment. Sure, the bad guys will die, but they might not die for a while and can shoot back. Real self defense ammo will do much more damage and are more likely to kill bad guys quicker. Read the ammo oracle and articles from Dr. Gary Roberts.  And don't tell me because you cant afford real SD ammo. IMI 77, CBC 77 are all 50cpr. You don't need 10,000 rounds. A few mags of the good stuff will be fine.

The 55gr bulk is fine for SHTF. I keep several thousand rounds handy, but my go to mags have a real SD cartridge loaded.
I’m not saying any of this is right or wrong, but it seems like a big logical leap that major militaries pick the rounds with lethality at the top of their criteria, and that we should mirror our ammunition with what major militaries select. Usually the argument is that 855 is picked over 193 for barrier performance, not terminal performance (both of which should matter for a military round). I know 193 can be an absolutely brutal round when it works right, I think the issue is that it is often inconsistent in whether it works right in the first place. I’d rather be looking at what LEOs use than .mil’s.

Heavy OTMs are also somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes they’re awesome, sometimes they’re not. It depends on when they begin to yaw, and if that’s not within the depth of a wound track they’ll ice pick just like 193. I’ve had it happen on game. I’ve never had a Fusion, Gold Dot, or TMK fail to quickly and consistently perform as advertised. I think a heavy OTM is a good choice, but I think it is a less consistent choice than others mentioned in this and other threads.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 1:08:59 AM EDT
[#14]
64 GD are gtg as are Hornady GMX if you can find them I prefer the 55 keep in mind it’s a barrier penetrating round so you have more penetration. MK262 isn’t bad but we have better options in the non .mil world.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 2:46:40 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
BH 77gr TMK
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This is the round I definitely trust the most for damage, and the one I’ve used the most on whitetail. Absolutely brutal round.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 3:38:52 AM EDT
[#16]
Has anyone tried the 64 grain .223 Winchester Power-Core?
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 8:38:43 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I’m not saying any of this is right or wrong, but it seems like a big logical leap that major militaries pick the rounds with lethality at the top of their criteria, and that we should mirror our ammunition with what major militaries select. Usually the argument is that 855 is picked over 193 for barrier performance, not terminal performance (both of which should matter for a military round). I know 193 can be an absolutely brutal round when it works right, I think the issue is that it is often inconsistent in whether it works right in the first place. I’d rather be looking at what LEOs use than .mil’s.

Heavy OTMs are also somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes they’re awesome, sometimes they’re not. It depends on when they begin to yaw, and if that’s not within the depth of a wound track they’ll ice pick just like 193. I’ve had it happen on game. I’ve never had a Fusion, Gold Dot, or TMK fail to quickly and consistently perform as advertised. I think a heavy OTM is a good choice, but I think it is a less consistent choice than others mentioned in this and other threads.
View Quote
I disagree that OTM's are yaw dependent. From the gel tests I've seen, they may fragment somewhat, but they mostly expand like a hollow point, as in this video.

https://youtu.be/pzicw0Q8HRg
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:00:46 AM EDT
[#18]
I thought the Gold dot 64gr werent good is a 10.5 from a ballistics standpoint.
I belive I read that on here somewhere so take that with a grain of salt.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:09:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I’m not saying any of this is right or wrong, but it seems like a big logical leap that major militaries pick the rounds with lethality at the top of their criteria, and that we should mirror our ammunition with what major militaries select. Usually the argument is that 855 is picked over 193 for barrier performance, not terminal performance (both of which should matter for a military round). I know 193 can be an absolutely brutal round when it works right, I think the issue is that it is often inconsistent in whether it works right in the first place. I’d rather be looking at what LEOs use than .mil’s.

Heavy OTMs are also somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes they’re awesome, sometimes they’re not. It depends on when they begin to yaw, and if that’s not within the depth of a wound track they’ll ice pick just like 193. I’ve had it happen on game. I’ve never had a Fusion, Gold Dot, or TMK fail to quickly and consistently perform as advertised. I think a heavy OTM is a good choice, but I think it is a less consistent choice than others mentioned in this and other threads.
View Quote
That is not what I said in any way. I was suggesting to use ammo that was scientifically engineered (real SD ammo) to be more lethal.

SD ammo, including heavy OTMs, is designed to have more consistent wound cavities than that of bulk plinking xm193 or 55gr FMJs.

a few links for Dr. Gary Roberts info.

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4343-5-56-mm-55-gr-M193-Terminal-Performance-Thoughts

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 11:39:20 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That is not what I said in any way. I was suggesting to use ammo that was scientifically engineered (real SD ammo) to be more lethal.

SD ammo, including heavy OTMs, is designed to have more consistent wound cavities than that of bulk plinking xm193 or 55gr FMJs.

a few links for Dr. Gary Roberts info.

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4343-5-56-mm-55-gr-M193-Terminal-Performance-Thoughts

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads
View Quote
Definitely some good reads you posted, thank you!

Here is some of my evidence that shows standard 55 gr XM193 or anything similar is NOT bad for home defense

How Good Can a Plain 55gr FMJ Bullet Be?




I understand that these guys are NOT doctors and only backyard scientists, but they have some valid testing. Of course 77 gr OTM rounds are great for defense no doubt about it.

My argument is that at close range 25 yards and in, there is little to no measurable difference in lethality.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 2:10:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I disagree that OTM's are yaw dependent. From the gel tests I've seen, they may fragment somewhat, but they mostly expand like a hollow point, as in this video.

https://youtu.be/pzicw0Q8HRg
View Quote
A lot of times they work great, sometimes they don’t, and ice pick. I do not have data to support this, but anecdotally, I have had this happen. I have not had it happen with rounds that promote a rapid expansion or fragmentation such as the TMK or Gold Dot/Fusion.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:06:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Definitely some good reads you posted, thank you!

Here is some of my evidence that shows standard 55 gr XM193 or anything similar is NOT bad for home defense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DamerZHdoY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggq1WnS3Kq8

I understand that these guys are NOT doctors and only backyard scientists, but they have some valid testing. Of course 77 gr OTM rounds are great for defense no doubt about it.

My argument is that at close range 25 yards and in, there is little to no measurable difference in lethality.
View Quote
Good info. I would have no problem using XM193 or a good 55gr FMJ in a pinch. I have been hard on the 55gr crowd. I really should temper my opinion on this forum. I just prefer an engineered cartridge. Thanks for the mature discussion.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:08:08 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:

A lot of times they work great, sometimes they don’t, and ice pick. I do not have data to support this, but anecdotally, I have had this happen. I have not had it happen with rounds that promote a rapid expansion or fragmentation such as the TMK or Gold Dot/Fusion.
View Quote
TMK is just a heavy OTM (77gr SMK) with a tip.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:23:11 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:

Good info. I would have no problem using XM193 or a good 55gr FMJ in a pinch. I have been hard on the 55gr crowd. I really should temper my opinion on this forum. I just prefer an engineered cartridge. Thanks for the mature discussion.
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Thanks for the mature discussion also! I’m happy that we could exchange information!

To OP, pick what ever round you think suits you best if you want a heavy OTM bullet no one here will disagree with that and yes you can get by and be effective with XM193, as I and others have suggested. Obviously this is all PERSONAL preference.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:27:00 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
TMK is just a heavy OTM (77gr SMK) with a tip.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

A lot of times they work great, sometimes they don’t, and ice pick. I do not have data to support this, but anecdotally, I have had this happen. I have not had it happen with rounds that promote a rapid expansion or fragmentation such as the TMK or Gold Dot/Fusion.
TMK is just a heavy OTM (77gr SMK) with a tip.
Absolutely, but that tip promotes a quick and consistent frag. TMKs have a very short necked wound cavity, whereas SMKs take a good bit further assuming they don’t ice pick altogether.

ETA: I’m not saying OTMs are a bad choice. I think one could do much worse, and that they usually do pretty catastrophic damage. I just think that newer designs work more consistently and at lower velocity thresholds.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:35:05 PM EDT
[#26]
I like 77gr TMK, 75gr TAP, M855A1 and most the TSX options.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 9:40:34 PM EDT
[#27]
62/64 grain Gold Dot.
Link Posted: 1/7/2019 10:13:30 PM EDT
[#28]
At HD ranges I'd think you'd be ok with pretty much anything.
Link Posted: 1/9/2019 8:46:47 AM EDT
[#29]
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Check this also- https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/What-ammo-in-your-defensive-carbine-/16-733406/

62gr XM556SBCT3 in our 10.5  
Best .223 Defense Ammo Ever? Federal 5.56mm 62gr FBIT3 Gel Test


75gr GD in our 14.5  
Speer 75gr Gold Dot Ammunition
Link Posted: 1/9/2019 8:49:14 AM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:

This is the round I definitely trust the most for damage, and the one I’ve used the most on whitetail. Absolutely brutal round.
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Pictures?
Link Posted: 1/9/2019 9:07:11 AM EDT
[#31]
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Those are two great loads. Wow.

At a $1.20 a shot, that is going to limit many in buying this. As I said early a few mags of these for the acute scenario and with 1K of bulk 55gr for SHTF would work. However, the $0.50 a shot with IMI 77 or CBC 77 gel tests were very similar or just as good.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the modern specifically engineered SD cartridges.
Link Posted: 1/9/2019 7:57:27 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
Pictures?
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Quoted:
Quoted:

This is the round I definitely trust the most for damage, and the one I’ve used the most on whitetail. Absolutely brutal round.
Pictures?
I’ll have to take some just for the sake of it next season, I usually just take a classy and non-graphic pic of me with the deer for social media. The only pic I have taken of damage for AAR purposes was this last month when I took a doe with a 50BMG, for...obvious reasons. The TMK is a very accurate little round, and I usually shoot at close range. Ranges I’d say aren’t far past defensive ranges, average shot of maybe 40m. I usually do neck shots. It blows out the neck pretty good, as in the neck is bulged in all directions and looks like a basketball got stuck in its throat. Freaked me out the first time I saw it. Oddly neck shots don’t always pass through, but chest shots have with the round. Dunno if it’s just denser meat and neck vertebrae vs a relatively ‘hollow’ lung/chest cavity or what.

I have taken a couple with chest shots though. Once to see what it would do (maybe 25m away) before I loaded it into my bedside rifle, and once again when the deer was at range. Both broadside. On both the round exited, the deer ran maybe 30m, piled up, and was dead before I could walk over. On examination it punctured clean through the rib cage, and turned the entire chest cavity into soup. I’m talking filled with blood, heart completely detached or blown up, and lungs shredded to little slivers of lung tissue. The round then exited out the side, not huge, but I could probably get a couple fingers through it.

I’ve always used defensive ammo whenever I could for hunting. Whether it’s handgun gold dots or HST, or rifle Gold Dots, Fusion, SMK, TMK, etc. They all kill things pretty dead, but I’ve been the most impressed with the wounding of TMKs. Add in their great precision, high velocity (from BH ammo), and high BC, and at least for me they’re about the round to beat.

I’ll be sure to start taking pictures of wounds and internals though, it is pretty gnarly. I do recall a member here posting similar TMK wound pics though on deer and pigs. I don’t remember his name though.....L-IED, or something? Maybe someone can dig them up. I recall he had about the same impression with the round.
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 5:39:35 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
At HD ranges I'd think you'd be ok with pretty much anything.
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This!!!!  I sleep just fine with my suppressed MK18 loaded with 20rds of M193 under my bed.
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 6:43:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Perfectly happy with Federal 5.56 TBBC, XM556SBCT3
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 9:23:25 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:

I'll be sure to start taking pictures of wounds and internals though, it is pretty gnarly. I do recall a member here posting similar TMK wound pics though on deer and pigs. I don't remember his name though.....L-IED, or something? Maybe someone can dig them up. I recall he had about the same impression with the round.
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in this thread

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-655722/?
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 1:13:38 AM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:

I'll be sure to start taking pictures of wounds and internals though, it is pretty gnarly. I do recall a member here posting similar TMK wound pics though on deer and pigs. I don't remember his name though.....L-IED, or something? Maybe someone can dig them up. I recall he had about the same impression with the round.
in this thread

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-655722/?
That’s the one! He has some great pics of what it did on his whitetail kills around pg3-4. I use shorter barrels at shorter ranges, but it’s close enough. His results mirror mine. They’re some pretty brutal little bullets.
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 9:17:47 AM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
MK318 if you can find it.
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Just scored 300 rounds for .58c a round on the EE.
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 10:06:21 AM EDT
[#38]
Hornady TAP T2

.
Link Posted: 1/19/2019 10:48:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Please read the post "Best choices for defensive ammunition" tacked under "Resources" at the top of the page.
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