Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 12/31/2020 7:08:59 PM EDT
I have built 5 rifles over the last 6 months all using similar high quality parts. All 5 used Criterion Barrels. I'm in the process of breaking them in but experiencing malfunctions with 3.

Rifle 1:
BCM upper, BCM BCG, PSA lower and Parts, Geiselle SSA trigger, BCM/Vltor A5 buffer tube, buffer and spring. Criterion Barrel is 12.5" carbine gas w/ Surfire Muzzle Brake. Port is appx .064. BCM gas block and tube. Bolt was purchased from Criterion fitted. Headspace has been gauged. Brass measures near minimum headspace.  

Rifle 2 and 3 are nearly identical
PSA Upper, PSA bolt Carrier Group, PSA lower, CMMG parts kit, Geiselle SSA and Milspec PSA Triggers, Buffer Tubes from SB Tactical, BCM Springs and Buffers. Barrels are Criterion 13.9 midlength gas system w/ .073" ports. Pinned and welded Surefire 3 prong flash suppressor. Headspace has been properly gauged w/ go/no go gauges on both. Brass measures moderate on headspace.

All 3 rifles experienced failure to feed and failure to Lock back on last round. Initially ran with oil on buffer/spring and grease on BCG bearing points. Barrel break in was w/ American Eagle 55gr. Shoot 1 clean for 5 shots, Shoot 5 and clean. Up to 25 shots while zeroing. I've disassembled and verified gas port alignment with block, verified minimal interference at gas tube/key. Verified buffer tube vent was clear, experimented with known lowers, swapped Bolt Carriers etc. Magazines used were an older colt 20 round, 20 and 30 round Magpul gen 3 and a USGI green follower 30 round. I've tried VERY lightly polishing the chambers with mothers mag and aluminum polish on mop. Lightly sanding the port with 400-600 grit paper rolled up (looing for bur or obstruction, ran pipe cleaners through the gas tubes etc.

Link Posted: 12/31/2020 7:10:12 PM EDT
[#1]
I am hesitant to drill/ream the gas ports up but can... I have a mill and proper drills but would probably use a chucking reamer if increasing less than .005. Concerned about chrome lining being damaged. I suspect that parts need more time to wear together and or there are burrs at the gas port that are fouling with copper and restricting gas as round count increases. Want the rifles to be 100% reliable. Round count through each rifle is 100-150 rounds. I've tried standard weight buffer up to H2 (A5H0 to A5H2 in the case of the 12.5). I've swapped around buffer springs as well based on length to see if it had any affect. Gas rings are offset and are fitting tight in carrier. Gas key was checked with oil around the key and compressed air.

Current thoughts are to clean everything thoroughly again after last trip when I shot wet with motor oil. Clean chambers and barrels thoroughly. (I've been using hoppes, followed by sweets and a rinse of alcohol to neaturalize the sweets. I was only using patches on dewey rod/jag but have recently ran a bronze brush through with the hoppes hoping to dislodge any copper building up at port) and shoot more to see if more break in is all that is necessary to wear parts together and reduce friction or shoot burs out around the gas port. If it is just a break in issue that is still concerning... most factory rifles I've owned functioned from the start.




Link Posted: 12/31/2020 7:10:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Each trip back out yeilded minor improvements. Sometimes they would work correctly for 10-20 rounds before exhibiting problems but eventually they all started acting up and short stroking. Brass appears to be ejecting at 4 oclock on all. Non are running suppressed yet. Most recent trip I ran them VERY wet with some used motor oil (soaked the bolts with the oil I had sufficient quantities of). After 30-50 rounds through each they were firing without short stoking but were loking back on the carrier not the bolt face. Again running well until minor fouling caused what appears to be an undergassed condition.

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 12/31/2020 7:21:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Failure to lock back is insufficient recoil energy, usually.

Not enough gas, or not enough shoulder. I guess also possibly weak ammo - but you didn't specify Wolf/Tula or reloads so I didn't bring that up as a primary possibility.
Link Posted: 12/31/2020 8:27:26 PM EDT
[#4]
You indicated swapping buffer springs based on length.  Have you considered putting in a lighter spring?

RTB Reduced Power Carbine Spring

Link Posted: 12/31/2020 10:05:48 PM EDT
[#5]
I've used primarily AE223 (Federal American Eagle Bulk Box) 55gr. I did use the 12.5" doing some load development. 77gr SMKs w/ 23.5 8208 XBR... a fairly hot load. 12.5" was 2530fps.

I have looked into reduce power recoil springs. Specifically the Springco Yellow... From the MFG website  "It’s approximately 20% lighter than the White spring, and was the consensus choice out of 4 different evaluation samples provided to all parties. They all added in their final evaluations that if a particular gun needed a lighter spring, that the gas port should be enlarged for overall reliability."
Link Posted: 12/31/2020 10:52:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 12/31/2020 11:13:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 1/1/2021 4:11:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Thank you to Sully and Dano. I will follow your advice and report back ASAP.

Dan
Link Posted: 1/1/2021 4:20:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 1/1/2021 8:41:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Got the rifles thoroughly cleaned with CLP. Leaving them dry for tonight and will apply CLP on bearing points, bolt lugs and top of hammer right before firing. I checked the keys as described by Dano with 100psi holding the bolt in... all three leak to some degree. Gas blocks did not leak except at tube... very tiny bubbles but not a significant leak. The barrels are dimpled for set screws and when the blocks were previously removed the carbon ring around the ports appeared to be centered. Key to gas tube interference is minimal. One has slightly more resistance as carrier goes into battery but I have tweaked it the best I can. I have a replacement gas tube if it comes to it. The keys are staked but I can replace if that is your recommendation.  I'm going to shoot them and segregate brass tomorrow. I'll get photos of brass.

The rifles all have the shortest/smallest wire diameter buffer springs I have on hand currently and standard weight buffers. When charging handle is drawn fully to the rear the bolt face is showing 1/8" and there is significant space between bolt face and bolt catch.

Link Posted: 1/1/2021 10:31:14 PM EDT
[#11]
I've used a light grease like Cherrybalmz or Slip EWG countless times on AR bcgs. It's fine.

I bet it's the gas block alignment.
Link Posted: 1/1/2021 10:40:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Barrel is dimpled for set screw to ensure proper gas block alignment. Screw impressions show I was in the dimple and the carbon ring around the port confirmed alignment. Gas blocks are not leaking.

Grease used initially was lubriplate. Grease has uses but I'll stick with oil on AR15 in the future.
Link Posted: 1/2/2021 1:47:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 1/2/2021 1:55:15 AM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 1/2/2021 3:28:35 PM EDT
[#15]
I would just open the gas port slightly, one size larger at a time. Reassemble and shoot. Once it locks back on an empty magazine I would stop. I use a hand drill and plenty of oil. I go slow making sure I don't angle the drill. With care and little pressure you can punch through without touching the other side of the bore.

Break-in will loosen things up from that point forward.
Link Posted: 1/2/2021 6:44:21 PM EDT
[#16]
If I understand correctly your fix would re-use the existing keys? Remove, use a counter sink to de-burr, lap and reassemble with new screws and threadlock gasket...
Where can I get just the screws?

Dan
Link Posted: 1/2/2021 8:15:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 10:58:34 PM EDT
[#18]
On one of the 13.9" rifles I removed the bolt carrier gas key, lapped, sealed and reassembled (as described above). That rifle appears to be functioning fairly well now. It can still fail to lock back if I intentionally give it less shoulder. I shot maybe 30 rounds one at a time and got lock back each time. I'm not 100% confident in it yet but will update after a few more range visits.  

I used this carrier to test the other two rifles as well. Shooting 5-10 with original carrier and then carrier from rifle above. The 12.5" started to short stroke/fail to lock back within the first five rounds with its original carrier. Swapping carriers to the repaired one seemed to fix the problem. It was pretty definitive on this rifle and I'll be lapping and sealing the gas key on this one as well.

The second 13.9 was more fickle. It seemed to work fine with its original carrier and then would short stroke (Fail to lock back) occasionally with the fixed carrier. As round count went up though I think I was getting more reliable function from the lapped and sealed one. I'll seal it and double check everything else again.

In general I observed that the 13.9" mid length rifles are very prone to short stroking (lock back) if given less shoulder and require more attention to technique than any AR I've previously owned. I was shooting clean lubed rifles, in moderate cold (upper 40s), standing, off hand. Under less than ideal conditions or shooting from compromised/non conventional  positions might be an issue. FYI for others that may be considering this barrel gas length combination and just my humble observations.
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 12:24:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 1/22/2021 2:08:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would just open the gas port slightly, one size larger at a time. Reassemble and shoot. Once it locks back on an empty magazine I would stop. I use a hand drill and plenty of oil. I go slow making sure I don't angle the drill. With care and little pressure you can punch through without touching the other side of the bore.

Break-in will loosen things up from that point forward.
View Quote


100% this!  Don't need to tear anything else apart.
Bolts are not air tight.  Ever notice how the gas tube easily fits into the gas key?  (Now if the gas key is loose, thats a different story.)  They don't need to be, there is several thousands pounds of pressure being fed thru the gas tube in a very fast pulse.  

Open the gas port.  You won't hurt the chrome lining... that is old rumer.  That is kind of like worrying about the chrome being peeled out of the barrel by shooting.  Don't drill into the far side of the barrel, it will not do you any good for accuracy!
Unfortunately this is a long trial and error process.... you will have to work for it.

Run it wet when new, oil not grease!
Link Posted: 2/1/2021 1:49:45 PM EDT
[#21]
as an addition to this thread I just finished a build with a Criterion 14.5" CORE barrel. Put it on an existing lower using a Vltor A5 RE, Sprinco green and A5H2. Wasn't picking up the next round my first range trip and I failed to bring alternative parts with me.
Went back out with a milspec RE, 2x milspec buffer springs and a sprinco white, plus H and H2 buffers. Ammo was mostly Magtech 62gr 5.56 plus some hornady .223 60gr TAP. No combination would lock the gun open. Tried the BCM headspaced bolt in a Hodge carrier and the LMT carrier I built it with. Also tried the complete Hodge bcg. Same results.
Took the upper apart over the weekend and bought some pin gauges. The .073" pin goes in but catches on something before entering the bore. The .072" pin goes all the way through and feels pretty snug all around.

I cant find any other examples with my Google fu of a 14.5" midlength + .625 gb journal with a port that sized. My Hodge 14.5 is supposedly a .075" port but that's on a .750" gb journal. The hodge 14.5 was previously running on this lower with the vltor a5 setup as a comparison.
I'm stumped.
Link Posted: 3/7/2021 2:17:17 AM EDT
[#22]
good contributions folks....
Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top