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Posted: 12/5/2021 11:40:22 PM EDT
Over the years we've seen some intresting advancements (e.g., chome lined bore/chamber/carrier, flat top receiver, telescoping stock,  KAC's bolt, etc.). I was wondering if you think we've reached the peak at this point. I can't think of anything else in the future that could substantively improve it. I'm sure we'll see advancements with ammo (e.g., polymer cased) and optics but nothing substantial in terms of the platform itself.
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 12:05:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Most of what can be done has been done. Theres still room for improvement / a need for some aspects to become more standardized.

-A military / duty grade adjustable gas block for DI ARs

-Improved barrel steels for longer barrel life

-Further testing of recoil/vibration reducing buffers and buffer tips

-Fully ambidextrous lowers as standard

-Optimized taper profiled barrels as standard, rather then the absurd 'Gov't profile'

-Digital / Mechanical triggers that pair with computerized smart optics ala TrackingPoint / NGSW-FC.
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 12:35:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Nope...great things to come in the near future...the M4 is the rifle equivalent of the M1 battle tank chassis.
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 12:41:48 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm still waiting for the electronic shot counter HUD like in Halo.
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 1:50:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Most of what can be done has been done. Theres still room for improvement / a need for some aspects to become more standardized.

-A military / duty grade adjustable gas block for DI ARs

-Improved barrel steels for longer barrel life

-Further testing of recoil/vibration reducing buffers and buffer tips

-Fully ambidextrous lowers as standard
View Quote


100% this. So sick of 95% of manufacturers oversizing gas ports to accommodate steel cased ammo.
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 1:51:02 AM EDT
[#5]
In my opinion the biggest advancement that needs to happen is an industry standardization of large frame ARs.
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 1:59:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


100% this. So sick of 95% of manufacturers oversizing gas ports to accommodate steel cased ammo.
View Quote


Damn straight. The 10.5” Noveske barrel I have came with a .080” gas port. I ended up installing a .070” BRT insert (no longer available, can still get Ez-tune gas tubes though) to smooth it out. The best part is that when I called Noveske they refused to tell me what diameter the gas port was stating that it was “pRoPriEtArY”
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 2:19:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Hah.. I think there is more to come. Plenty of manufacturers are experimenting with new ways to make things better. All of these innovations are still relatively new: Sullivan's OBC, LMT's Enhanced Carrier, Bootleg Adj Gas BCG, other innovative adj gas block designs like RifleSpeed, LAW folder, roller & radial delayed systems, forced reset triggers.
Link Posted: 12/6/2021 3:12:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Hah.. I think there is more to come. Plenty of manufacturers are experimenting with new ways to make things better. All of these innovations are still relatively new: Sullivan's OBC, LMT's Enhanced Carrier, Bootleg Adj Gas BCG, other innovative adj gas block designs like RifleSpeed, LAW folder, roller & radial delayed systems, forced reset triggers.
View Quote


I wouldn't call all of them recent, nor would I call all them innovations, more like bandaids to fix poor prior design. For example, the LMT e-BCG has been available commercially for 8 years so it was probably first fielded by whatever unit requested close to decade ago. The Bootleg adjustable BCG is at least 5 years old. The E-bcg would be unnecessary if rifle barrels were properly gassed from the start. The Bootleg does add some value for rifles that are frequently swapped between suppressed and unsuppressed.
Link Posted: 12/7/2021 12:38:48 AM EDT
[#9]
I don’t think innovation has run its course.  First, sticking to innovation strictly on the platform itself:
Even on basically stock ARs (functionally) there have been new movements/ideas.  The WWSD concept is maybe the most obvious recent one - to make a very light AR while not sacrificing accuracy or reliability while adding ambi and addressing some the AR’s rarer potential failings. Yes, there was a lightweight movement before WWSD, but it was largely centered around gram shaving with expensive parts and the gamer scene.  Yes, the official Brownells WWSD ain't cheap, but a home-built WWSD-type rifle isn’t nearly so expensive.  A lot of the counter-arguments to WWSD devolve into “HURRRR you need to go to the gym HURRRR”, which is BS.  I’ve read enough on “the soldier’s burden” to know that extra weight and the resulting loss of mobility is critical to even young, fit men, let alone older not-so-fit men.  I think WWSD as an AR design concept is a valuable and timely innovation.

Has technology caught up with the concept of a superlight composite barrel at reasonable cost?  That would be a potentially large weight savings.

Fully ambidextrous features are way overdue on all modern AR lowers.  Yes, you can find them (MARS etc) but it remains uncommon.

A monolithic polymer upper is another route of innovation for low cost and light weight..

Various solutions to allow for folding stocks exist, but all are proprietary and have limited acceptance.  I think there’s room for a universally accepted folding stock solution (which may involve a new or highly modified recoil system) that gives up nothing in reliability and little in weight.

If you follow current small arms news, the US military has become extremely concerned about AP performance on L4 armor.  They are addressing it in two ways: 1)on the 5.56 platform they are trying to upgrade optics capability so the 5.56 can shoot where the armor isn’t. And 2)Massively improved AP performance with extremely hot 6.5-7mm loads, which requires a large frame gun.  To this end, is the AR10 system capable of being adapted to fire these ultra-hot rounds?  What would that involve?

Getting into accessories:

A light and integrated bipod with the minimum necessary features (tilt).  There are of course many, many bipod choices out there, but most of them are too big and heavy

A fully integrated white light/visible laser/IR laser/IR illuminator unit that is as small and light as possible while still being fully capable and not costing $5,000.

A workable off-axis sighting system integrated with the primary sight which again is as small and light as possible and not costing $5,000.
Link Posted: 12/7/2021 9:29:38 AM EDT
[#10]
It'll be interesting to see what CZ comes up with to make Colt mfg. "their own"
Link Posted: 12/7/2021 11:00:58 AM EDT
[#11]
I’d really like to see something like what Magpul developed that ended up driving the ACR. A one piece receiver with a free floating top rail which can then attach many different hand guard options. Pretty sure LMT and Vltor’s parents are what stop that though.
Link Posted: 12/7/2021 11:32:26 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don’t think innovation has run its course.  First, sticking to innovation strictly on the platform itself:
Even on basically stock ARs (functionally) there have been new movements/ideas.  The WWSD concept is maybe the most obvious recent one - to make a very light AR while not sacrificing accuracy or reliability while adding ambi and addressing some the AR’s rarer potential failings. Yes, there was a lightweight movement before WWSD, but it was largely centered around gram shaving with expensive parts and the gamer scene.  Yes, the official Brownells WWSD ain't cheap, but a home-built WWSD-type rifle isn’t nearly so expensive.  A lot of the counter-arguments to WWSD devolve into “HURRRR you need to go to the gym HURRRR”, which is BS.  I’ve read enough on “the soldier’s burden” to know that extra weight and the resulting loss of mobility is critical to even young, fit men, let alone older not-so-fit men.  I think WWSD as an AR design concept is a valuable and timely innovation.

Has technology caught up with the concept of a superlight composite barrel at reasonable cost?  That would be a potentially large weight savings.

Fully ambidextrous features are way overdue on all modern AR lowers.  Yes, you can find them (MARS etc) but it remains uncommon.

A monolithic polymer upper is another route of innovation for low cost and light weight..

Various solutions to allow for folding stocks exist, but all are proprietary and have limited acceptance.  I think there’s room for a universally accepted folding stock solution (which may involve a new or highly modified recoil system) that gives up nothing in reliability and little in weight.

If you follow current small arms news, the US military has become extremely concerned about AP performance on L4 armor.  They are addressing it in two ways: 1)on the 5.56 platform they are trying to upgrade optics capability so the 5.56 can shoot where the armor isn’t. And 2)Massively improved AP performance with extremely hot 6.5-7mm loads, which requires a large frame gun.  To this end, is the AR10 system capable of being adapted to fire these ultra-hot rounds?  What would that involve?

Getting into accessories:

A light and integrated bipod with the minimum necessary features (tilt).  There are of course many, many bipod choices out there, but most of them are too big and heavy

A fully integrated white light/visible laser/IR laser/IR illuminator unit that is as small and light as possible while still being fully capable and not costing $5,000.

A workable off-axis sighting system integrated with the primary sight which again is as small and light as possible and not costing $5,000.
View Quote


I actually wasn’t too impressed with the WWSD build. It’s an interesting take on the platform, but I’m very skeptical of certain parts, namely the lower and rail materials. I’m no expert so take that for what it’s worth.
Link Posted: 12/7/2021 4:50:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Ammunition seems to be the place that has the most room for innovation.

POF fitting a .308/6.5 creedmore in an ar-15 size rifle with the Revolution/Rogue was pretty innovative.
Link Posted: 12/7/2021 5:05:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Most of what can be done has been done. Theres still room for improvement / a need for some aspects to become more standardized.

-A military / duty grade adjustable gas block for DI ARs

-Improved barrel steels for longer barrel life

-Further testing of recoil/vibration reducing buffers and buffer tips

-Fully ambidextrous lowers as standard

-Optimized taper profiled barrels as standard, rather then the absurd 'Gov't profile'

-Digital / Mechanical triggers that pair with computerized smart optics ala TrackingPoint / NGSW-FC.
View Quote

I'd take every single one of these features in a heartbeat.
Link Posted: 12/7/2021 5:16:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Nowadays most of the practical innovations have been discovered… qd barrels, folding stocks, ambi lowers, etc

I think the only room for improvements left is in the materials/finishes/treatments used.

Or mfg technology like 3D printing that could cut mfg costs

Link Posted: 12/8/2021 5:40:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Nope but removal of the NFA 34', GCA 68' and Hughes Amendment 86' would be great for the industry.

CD
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 5:55:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Anyone who says "definitely yes" lacks imagination.  Now, if you were to ask the next (and more important) question, which should be "is the innovation marketable/profitable" then you get a very different answer.  Also, CD is right.  Removal of .gov induced impediments changes the picture in ways we can only dream of.  Integrally suppressed short barreled ARs is one that I think would do well in the marketplace were it not for government.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 7:10:30 AM EDT
[#18]
From what I see at the range there needs to be a movement for people to optimize themselves.

The parts and configurations that make AR's work consistently with good durability have been known for decades.

Most people buying new AR's don't even bother to lube them after taking them out of the box to shoot and have no idea how to even zero a rifle. It's tragic.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 7:36:41 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
From what I see at the range there needs to be a movement for people to optimize themselves.

The parts and configurations that make AR's work consistently with good durability have been known for decades.

Most people buying new AR's don't even bother to lube them after taking them out of the box to shoot and have no idea how to even zero a rifle. It's tragic.
View Quote

Very well put.  How many of us here have spent that time assisting others that have issues?  
I am happy to help, most of the time. I want new shooters to find their groove.  

Then again...sometimes there is that TacticalMallNinja with a 7.5" pistol and a roaring tank brake that is raging about "bad" ammo he just bought at the range.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 9:05:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 9:16:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I actually wasn’t too impressed with the WWSD build. It’s an interesting take on the platform, but I’m very skeptical of certain parts, namely the lower and rail materials. I’m no expert so take that for what it’s worth.
View Quote



9Hole reviews addressed that and concluded it was a non issue.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 8:23:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Over the last 10 years I have came out with several different designs. Upper receivers where the carrier rides on rails like an FAL or AK. Great for pistons guns. I have a 3 lug bolt that is unbreakable. I tried to get bolt manufacturer's to make them for me but No body wants to make them. Fact is that the basic AR works very well for the majority who want one, you can buy them for $550-$700, manufacturers are selling everything they can make already, the cost of re-tooling is not worth it. Even just switching to a different alloy for the bolt to last longer, or maybe just change a radius to make the bolt stronger, it is not going to happen. Believe me I have tried. In my local market where I can explain the improvements, or at least what I consider improvements, buyers like it. Across the nation, good luck. Mil spec is in everyone's head and it is hard to change that.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 10:15:16 PM EDT
[#23]
IMO, pretty much.

Sure, some tweaks are still possible, but for the most part it’s not-so-new ideas getting recycled. BCG mods, ambi lowers, piston systems - none of ‘em are revolutionary at this point. Oh look, longer barrels are in again.

Accessories are the same way. If you’d have put a carry handle-height optic mount on a flattop receiver once flattops became common, people would’ve given you the RCA Dog look.

As they say on the AK boards, rifle is fine.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 10:53:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Some sort of "on board" power standard where 4-6 CR-123 batteries in your pistol grip can power anything attached to your upper rail and/handguard rail if the batteries in the optic/light/laser/whatever go down.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 11:02:57 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
In my opinion the biggest advancement that needs to happen is an industry standardization of large frame ARs.
View Quote

I used to think that but I am not sure I do anymore. Barrel/BCG and magazine compatibility are the really big ones and they are mostly together at this point. If it didn't happen at the beginning it probably never will and if it had we might not have gotten the small frame guns. If they standardized on a new small frame that could be cool but seeing the innovation from all the different companies is cool too.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 11:18:56 PM EDT
[#26]
SIG's MCX Spear, or at least the hybrid ammo they developed for the NGS submission, is one innovation.  Much more pressure than regular brass opens up a lot of interesting possibilities, no matter what the caliber.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 11:30:12 PM EDT
[#27]
I’d like an AR9 pistol that does not need a receiver extension.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 11:37:05 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


100% this. So sick of 95% of manufacturers oversizing gas ports to accommodate steel cased ammo.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Most of what can be done has been done. Theres still room for improvement / a need for some aspects to become more standardized.

-A military / duty grade adjustable gas block for DI ARs

-Improved barrel steels for longer barrel life

-Further testing of recoil/vibration reducing buffers and buffer tips

-Fully ambidextrous lowers as standard


100% this. So sick of 95% of manufacturers oversizing gas ports to accommodate steel cased ammo.


How about a pressure-regulating gas block that can deal with overgassing and suppressor back pressure...
Link Posted: 12/9/2021 8:02:07 AM EDT
[#29]
Speaking of innovation, this DMR/Sniper/Precision AR Chassis is new and different. Design is basically to completely and utterly free float the barrel when firing from the bipod.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/12/08/springfield-armory-saint-edge-atc/



Link Posted: 12/9/2021 9:44:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Probably
Link Posted: 12/9/2021 10:56:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Like internal combustion engine.  It’s great but massive advancement will probably require material science / chemistry leaps.
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 1:32:22 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Speaking of innovation, this DMR/Sniper/Precision AR Chassis is new and different. Design is basically to completely and utterly free float the barrel when firing from the bipod.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/12/08/springfield-armory-saint-edge-atc/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/0Q8A0232.jpg

View Quote
All that innovation for enhanced precision and they use a BA barrel...
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 2:02:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Hah.. I think there is more to come. Plenty of manufacturers are experimenting with new ways to make things better. All of these innovations are still relatively new: Sullivan's OBC, LMT's Enhanced Carrier, Bootleg Adj Gas BCG, other innovative adj gas block designs like RifleSpeed, LAW folder, roller & radial delayed systems, forced reset triggers.
View Quote

The lmt enhanced carrier has been around for a long time.
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 4:08:19 AM EDT
[#34]
Materials can always be improved (LMT using Aermet, etc.)

Aside from caliber/cartridge variants, electronics being integrated into the gun itself is what the next huge innovation is going to be centered around.
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 5:23:48 PM EDT
[#35]
So many AR-15's have been sold that they have been moving in numbers equal to the most popular years of Remington 870 sales.

Market experts consider the AR-15 market as saturated with little room for growth. Yet they continue to sell.

IMO the Democratic party platform has created exactly the opposite result of their stated goals. People buy more because they don't know how long they will be able to. They buy more out of a sense of defiance.

I think everyone who wants an AR already has one. Innovation is driven by market demands. A better mousetrap is hard to manufacture as far as AR's are concerned.
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 6:56:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Whenever I see a way to reset hammer without charging a new round is when I think we have reached peak.
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 11:13:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Wait for a true carbon fiber gun with side folder. When I say carbon fiber I don’t mean the cheap blended crap.
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 11:33:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Whenever I see a way to reset hammer without charging a new round is when I think we have reached peak.
View Quote

Well, I guess we are there, that is possible with every AR, has been since day 1.
Link Posted: 12/11/2021 12:15:32 AM EDT
[#39]
i think it's going to be more-so the manufacture processes that upgrade the AR platform. kinda how suppressors are. using different materials to achieve the same goal but maintain durability and lower weight etc.

there's so much out there for the AR you can do quite a bit with it.

But, I like my SCAR and pic rails. My MK18 doesn't go out much anymore.

After 6k through the SCAR i find it to be a better platform.... for ME. Still enjoy my AR's though.
Link Posted: 12/11/2021 11:59:56 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Whenever I see a way to reset hammer without charging a new round is when I think we have reached peak.
View Quote


What purpose would this serve?

Currently you can pull the charging handle back with no magazine in place to accomplish this. You can pull it back far enough to reset the trigger but not far enough to strip a new round from the mag. With a loaded magazine I can't see any reason to do so.

If you have around that failed to fire, you should strip it from the chamber and replace it with a fresh one.
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 6:54:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 7:46:42 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Speaking of innovation, this DMR/Sniper/Precision AR Chassis is new and different. Design is basically to completely and utterly free float the barrel when firing from the bipod.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/12/08/springfield-armory-saint-edge-atc/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/0Q8A0232.jpg

View Quote

I think that brings zero to the table.  The AR as it sits is already an accurate rifle all that does is add more complexity and difficulty with probably zero actual gains.  SA really made a dud on that one and the best thing we can do is point and laugh that all that did was make an AR that is hard to field strip.
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 8:18:32 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm amazed at the longevity of the platform. Bodes well for the future.
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 8:20:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Military/Duty grade.
Tool-free.
Completely modular (as much or as little restriction as you want).
100% user serviceable.
Rebuild it when your barrel is worn out and go again.  

https://www.riflespeed.com/RIFLESPEED-Gas-Controls_p_12.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR7Mr8MB9Tc

https://www.riflespeed.com/assets/images/gas%20control%20product%20shots/img_2205_lrexp-2_1200px.jpg
View Quote

Yeeeaaah bruddder
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 8:27:26 PM EDT
[#45]
I think the most drastic changes in store are probably ammo related.  We are reaching a lot further and with quite a bit more on target with the higher BC options in these made for AR calibers like 6.5G and 6mm ARC.  There seems to be a lot more interest in developing cartridges that fit into current platforms than evolving the platform itself.

-Mike
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 8:36:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Who remembers their first time with a M16?  Summer of '73, junior in high school.
For me it was on this dude's property after dark with a M16 with StarLight scope.
Holy Effing $h!t.

You've come a long way, baby!
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 8:38:46 PM EDT
[#47]
Geissele is innovating with their forged bolt special Carpenter steel alloy, rail anti-rotation/indexing tab, and most recently their steel insert in the upper for the cam pin bearing surface shown at SHOT.

Surefire is innovating with the AROC.

I think we will still see incremental evolutionary changes.

Link Posted: 1/26/2022 8:40:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Speaking of innovation, this DMR/Sniper/Precision AR Chassis is new and different. Design is basically to completely and utterly free float the barrel when firing from the bipod.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/12/08/springfield-armory-saint-edge-atc/



View Quote

All that work and they use a complete dogshit Ballistic Advantage barrel.
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 8:48:45 PM EDT
[#49]
I think there is potential for a bufferless carrier design, like the EWS, to become a new standard, which would make the standard AR platform lighter, more compact, more easily transportable, and work with true fully collapsible stocks, while retaining the benefits of a DI system over the piston based designs like MCX etc.

We could see an alternative aluminum alloy, for example see V7 enlightened experiments, resulting in overall weight reduction for the same strength.

I think there is potential for some improvements in optics, IMO a dedicated lightweight 7x+ prism would be a huge innovation, would make a mean pairing with a 45 offset MRDS.

I think there is tons of room for improvement when it comes to thermal optics - smaller form, lighter weight, better nucing, faster boot up, longer battery life, etc.

More standardized usage of carbon fiber for handguards and stocks.

There is huge room for improvement when it comes to
suppressor QD mounts in rifle calibers. Yhm kurz seems to be the best right now, but it could be lighter, more standardized, and more compatible with a wider range of muzzle devices.

I think there is potential to develop a new alloy of aluminum or titanium that actually works for barrels and muzzle devices better than steel. If so, major weight reduction and increased corrosion resistance.

There is room for improvement when it comes to mechanical delayed bolt systems, to improve suppressor performance



Link Posted: 1/26/2022 9:48:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Who remembers their first time with a M16?  Summer of '73, junior in high school.
For me it was on this dude's property after dark with a M16 with StarLight scope.
Holy Effing $h!t.

You've come a long way, baby!
View Quote

My first exposure was also the summer of 1973.  Only it was at Ft. Leonard Wood and no Starlight scope was involved.

kwg
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