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Page AR-15 » AR Piston Systems
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 9/30/2020 12:27:50 PM EDT
Haenel CR223 (.223 Rem.) // Vorstellung
Link Posted: 10/3/2020 4:58:58 AM EDT
[#1]
I don't speak German, but that was still an interesting video.  Have never seen a front handguard come off like that one does.  Very convenient, IF that locking mechanism is not just a gimmick and in fact proves itself to be sturdy, durable and reliable.  Not so sure I don't prefer the MCX method of front handguard removal, which accomplishes the same thing and is far simpler.  All in all, appears to be a nice piston alternative to the 416.
Link Posted: 10/4/2020 2:46:40 AM EDT
[#2]
Well, I dont think the Rail locking system is a gimick.
We have 2 State-Police agencies how adoped it, as well as some HRT´s
But you get the german quality for a painfull price... $2900...
If you are interetsed in some spesific translation, I could help you out.
Cheers
Link Posted: 10/4/2020 10:42:54 PM EDT
[#3]
So Haenel copied a hk 416. Am I missing something? Why on earth would any designer purposely require the removal of the handguard to access the piston?

Link Posted: 10/5/2020 4:17:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So Haenel copied a hk 416. Am I missing something? Why on earth would any designer purposely require the removal of the handguard to access the piston?

View Quote

Doesn't LWRCI do something similar, only using two thumb screws at the end of the rail, to expose the piston system?
Link Posted: 10/5/2020 6:30:31 AM EDT
[#5]
I don't know how it compares to other brands, but the biggest difference I saw (aside from being a piston), was the additional safety lever to prevent a free-floating firing pin.

Unless you have exceptionally soft primers, I really question how serious a problem slam-fires have ever been for ARs, so it seems like a very typical "belt and suspenders" German solution in search of a problem. But perhaps it was a requirement that they were obligated to include.

He also wasn't very impressed with the release latch on the butt stock, and he said there was something funny going on with the buffer spring detent pin (then he didn't show us what he meant by that).

Perhaps they were trying to go for a simple, inexpensive (for Germany) system, and this was the budget option. I don't see much to criticize. ¯\_(?)_/¯
Link Posted: 10/5/2020 10:25:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Doesn't LWRCI do something similar, only using two thumb screws at the end of the rail, to expose the piston system?
View Quote


Yes. And their design is silly too imo. I think the LMT piston design is the best. Not to mention available and reasonably priced.
Link Posted: 10/5/2020 10:27:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't know how it compares to other brands, but the biggest difference I saw (aside from being a piston), was the additional safety lever to prevent a free-floating firing pin.
View Quote


You mean the firing pin safety? The 416 has this too. The Haenel looks like a direct copy of that design feature, among others.
Link Posted: 10/9/2020 9:15:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So Haenel copied a hk 416. Am I missing something? Why on earth would any designer purposely require the removal of the handguard to access the piston?

View Quote


Wrong...Haenel's engineer was the original engineer (who holds the patent to the operating system design) on the HK416 program...then he went to Sig to create the 516 by making it more common with the AR platform and slightly improve on the op-rod design...knowing Sig they didn't really make much headway with the 516....then Caracal recruited the same engineer to make the 816A2...Caracal/Haenel is owned by the same UAE company...

Link Posted: 10/9/2020 12:23:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Just got word, that the german minestry of defense, withdraw the contract with Haenel.
Link Posted: 10/9/2020 12:50:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Ok, the contract is not canceled, but its on hold.
H&K is trying to sue Haenel over a Patent.
I could not find any further details about the patent H&K is mentioning.

Cheers.
Link Posted: 10/9/2020 2:11:06 PM EDT
[#11]
As stated before...Sig recruited the former HK416 engineer for the 516 project...then the dude left Sig and went to work for the UAE company...

The gas system on the Caracal/Haenel as well as the upper is an HK design that has been copied by Caracal/Haenel...only way they could do this is if the engineer actual owned the rights to it...but if I understand German firearm laws...the patent stays with HK/Bundeswehr...

I would much rather see HK win the contract than Haenel...
Link Posted: 10/10/2020 2:15:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
[b]Quoted:[/b

I would much rather see HK win the contract than Haenel...
View Quote


Thats a tough one...
HK sucks big time with Quality Control, Customer Service, and the permanent arogance.
Have not heard of a singel Unit over here that is happy with the outcome of the deal.

But I also don´t want that our serivce weapon is conectet to the UAE or thet the money goes there.

The MCX guns that run in some departments here dont have the reputation to last long.
Some get skipped out after 3-6k rds since they can´t hold the specs.

Not an easy task to buy a rifle for the Bundeswehr at the moment
Link Posted: 10/12/2020 9:58:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thats a tough one...
HK sucks big time with Quality Control, Customer Service, and the permanent arogance.
Have not heard of a singel Unit over here that is happy with the outcome of the deal.

But I also don´t want that our serivce weapon is conectet to the UAE or thet the money goes there.

The MCX guns that run in some departments here dont have the reputation to last long.
Some get skipped out after 3-6k rds since they can´t hold the specs.

Not an easy task to buy a rifle for the Bundeswehr at the moment
View Quote


I think what we are seeing quite honestly is the misapplication of SixSigma into firearms production.

In the last 2 years I have seen a big time drop in high end brands QC...well...Sig is turning out sooo many guns that it makes me wonder how well the machines are maintained...their barrels have been suffering for a while...
Link Posted: 10/17/2020 8:49:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Wrong...Haenel's engineer was the original engineer (who holds the patent to the operating system design) on the HK416 program...then he went to Sig to create the 516 by making it more common with the AR platform and slightly improve on the op-rod design...knowing Sig they didn't really make much headway with the 516....then Caracal recruited the same engineer to make the 816A2...Caracal/Haenel is owned by the same UAE company...

View Quote


This is common knowledge. Haenel’s submission is still just a 416 with another company’s badge.
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 10:12:42 AM EDT
[#15]
Not only do they have a firing pin safety latch, but they also have a firing pin spring to prevent the firing pin from being a free-floating unit. It seems as HK offers the 416 carrier both with both these features but also without either of them. Not sure if Haenel does the same thing?
Link Posted: 4/15/2021 10:14:10 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not only do they have a firing pin safety latch, but they also have a firing pin spring to prevent the firing pin from being a free-floating unit. It seems as HK offers the 416 carrier both with both these features but also without either of them. Not sure if Haenel does the same thing?
View Quote


Haenel offers the same.
Link Posted: 4/15/2021 10:21:11 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Wrong...Haenel's engineer was the original engineer (who holds the patent to the operating system design) on the HK416 program...then he went to Sig to create the 516 by making it more common with the AR platform and slightly improve on the op-rod design...knowing Sig they didn't really make much headway with the 516....then Caracal recruited the same engineer to make the 816A2...Caracal/Haenel is owned by the same UAE company...

View Quote


The patent stays with the employer. The engineer can only take his knowledge and experience with him to the other company. Haenel has to implement that knowledge without infringing other patents.

All in all it is in some aspects a better design than HK. The only thing HK was able to sue for patent infringement was the setup for the holes for the Over The Beach functionality, but which some legal experts claim is a void patent, as it has no uniqueness to it that would allow you patent it. So the chances, that HK's patent infringement claims will be thrown out by a court is a good possibility. This has happened in the past with HK too. They lost a pistol contract against Walther and sued for patent infriengement, but later lost due to the patent being void and Walther still got to deliver the pistols to the german police.

As far as I see, Haenel have made a nearly identical copy of HK, with some improvements, like being more Mil spec than HK, their gas release is supposed to be self regulating, tool-less handguard removal, replaceable steel latches for the  charging handle hooks etc.. The did not just copy, but added some very smart features.

And their standard trigger is awesome. Plus the fact that Haenel has rifles on stock and is able to deliver at any time, while HK has failed to deliver to civilian customers for the last 2 years.

The Haenel is a valid alternative to HK, if not the better option.
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