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Posted: 5/5/2021 6:04:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: UPDATE 5/5/21: Winchester wants all the ammo back from my buddy. They believe it may be dangerous and want to conduct some testing on it. The gunsmith said the barrel is toast because the brass is fused to the chamber. He did not notice any bulges or obvious damage but cannot get a good look in the chamber because of the fused brass. Same with the other pictures I posted. Tracking showed ammo arrived at Win, I asked him to keep me posted for outcome. |
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Posted: 5/5/2021 6:15:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WLC would indicate Winchester Lake City. SMQ is Saint Marks (General Dynamics) propellant. There's no way to double-charge a 5.56 case with military canister powder. It won't fit. Correct on the impossibility of double charge. Having loaded a lot of WC844 surplus powder I will state that those cases are darn full when charged to the full m193 spec. My understanding is every lot is tested and charges are adjusted to meet spec due to variations. I suspect that this particular powder lot was extra hot/fast and something was missed along the way. For example, one batch is slow or on the extreme low end of possible variation, no calibration change due to powder specs was made before a new batch is used, and the new batch was on the extreme high end of possible variation. Someone may be along to tell me I'm wrong and I'd welcome that if that is the case. I don't load for the .mil but their powder is bulk and has variations in spec from lot to lot far beyond what happens with consumer grade powders. All that said, I haven't personally examined the rifle or ammo myself to say for certain. Hope we get real and specific answers. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 9:02:56 PM EDT
[#3]
OP-anything back from winchester?
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Posted: 5/8/2021 2:31:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Hello All, I am said "friend" referred to in this thread. Feel free to ask me any additional details. As of now, Winchester sent UPS to pick up the remaining box of ammo I had. Much of the remaining ammo had already been loaded into magazines and was therefore considered "loose ammo" and could not be picked up by UPS. Winchester is sending me additional boxes to re-pack that ammo.
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Posted: 5/8/2021 4:27:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hello All, I am said "friend" referred to in this thread. Feel free to ask me any additional details. As of now, Winchester sent UPS to pick up the remaining box of ammo I had. Much of the remaining ammo had already been loaded into magazines and was therefore considered "loose ammo" and could not be picked up by UPS. Winchester is sending me additional boxes to re-pack that ammo. Why arent they asking for you to ship them your gun? Have you discussed them replacing it for you? |
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Posted: 5/8/2021 4:39:59 PM EDT
[#6]
They asked for a write-up and invoice from the gunsmith. They haven't promised anything though.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 4:18:14 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hello All, I am said "friend" referred to in this thread. Feel free to ask me any additional details. As of now, Winchester sent UPS to pick up the remaining box of ammo I had. Much of the remaining ammo had already been loaded into magazines and was therefore considered "loose ammo" and could not be picked up by UPS. Winchester is sending me additional boxes to re-pack that ammo. Is it going back to Lake City directly or to IL? |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 6:53:01 AM EDT
[#8]
I said before in this thread that I believe that this was due to a barrel obstruction.
Since you cant overcharge the case with powder the more likely event was a round was undercharged. That round didn't make it's way out and the next round forced it out which caused the pressure to spike. To say that the powder was somehow "hot" is very unlikely. That barrel needs to be looked at very carefully and do not run a cleaning brush down it or try to do anything else with it. I hope that you saved all of the brass that was fired that day as well. If all your "gunsmith" told you was that the brass was bonded to the chamber I would hope that you would ask for your money back because that's just fucking obvious. If he didn't have the tools to gauge the barrel he should not have been the one to look at it. What is Winchester doing about reimbursement for the ammo? What have they said about the damage? You should also ask what they plan to do about the time that you are now having to spend due to this screwup. It makes since why they want all the ammo back because once they do you have no evidence that it was their fault. I'm in to see what they say, but my bet is that they refund your money and tell you to piss off. If it were me I would have took pictures the moment it happened, documented everything, collected all the evidence, and had my lawyer contact them. If they pay to fix your gun that can be viewed as guilt on their part, the damage was done so they won't bother trying to fix it. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 8:41:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since you cant overcharge the case with powder That is not a true statement. You absolutely can overcharge the case. This was 55gr M193. I have never seen any M193 that was a compressed load. There was always room in the case. Most that I have pulled have been between 26 and 27gr of powder. You can easily put 29.5 gr of powder in a case and seat a 55gr M193 bullet. That's a 3.4gr overcharge, on a cartridge load that is already OVER SAAMI max pressure limits by design, and you can now add 13% more powder to the case. You can absolutely overcharge the M193 cartridge, by a significant factor. Additionally, since we saw the pictures of another person who also showed pressure signs (pierced/blown out primers) from the exact SAME LOT number, it is likely there was something malfunctioning with the equipment during that lot's production, or the powder used for this lot had a significant variance. This was most likely not a barrel obstruction that was then magically cleared by a subsequent bullet.... especially since another user with the same lot of ammo had pressure issues. This was overcharge, or a powder with a measured charge load and burn rate not suitable for 5.56. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:23:44 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I said before in this thread that I believe that this was due to a barrel obstruction. Since you cant overcharge the case with powder the more likely event was a round was undercharged. That round didn't make it's way out and the next round forced it out which caused the pressure to spike. To say that the powder was somehow "hot" is very unlikely. That barrel needs to be looked at very carefully and do not run a cleaning brush down it or try to do anything else with it. I hope that you saved all of the brass that was fired that day as well. If all your "gunsmith" told you was that the brass was bonded to the chamber I would hope that you would ask for your money back because that's just fucking obvious. If he didn't have the tools to gauge the barrel he should not have been the one to look at it. What is Winchester doing about reimbursement for the ammo? What have they said about the damage? You should also ask what they plan to do about the time that you are now having to spend due to this screwup. It makes since why they want all the ammo back because once they do you have no evidence that it was their fault. I'm in to see what they say, but my bet is that they refund your money and tell you to piss off. If it were me I would have took pictures the moment it happened, documented everything, collected all the evidence, and had my lawyer contact them. If they pay to fix your gun that can be viewed as guilt on their part, the damage was done so they won't bother trying to fix it. I love these Mr. Helper posts that just simply scream how ignorant new gun owners can really be... |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:02:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is not a true statement. You absolutely can overcharge the case. ... a cartridge load that is already OVER SAAMI max pressure limits by design, and you can now add 13% more powder to the case. You can absolutely overcharge the M193 cartridge, by a significant factor. ... another ... who also showed pressure signs (pierced/blown out primers) from the exact SAME LOT number, it is likely there was something malfunctioning with the equipment during that lot's production, or the powder used for this lot had a significant variance. ... especially since another user with the same lot of ammo had pressure issues. This was overcharge, or a powder with a measured charge load and burn rate not suitable for 5.56. I have no idea what may have caused this kaboom. My suspicion is bad (or incorrect) powder and possibly bullet set-back, unlikely with a proper military weather-proof seal and crimping. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:34:25 AM EDT
[#12]
I was thinking of set back spiking pressure too.
I have seen enough crap QC especially in the neck area from Winchester et al. Folded over necks, doubling the sidewall thickness, missing portions of the neck, cold formed “ crack” in necks, split necks. You really need to do as much QC on your own as you can,....unfortunately we don’t get x ray vision. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:58:11 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I said before in this thread that I believe that this was due to a barrel obstruction. Since you cant overcharge the case with powder the more likely event was a round was undercharged. That round didn't make it's way out and the next round forced it out which caused the pressure to spike. To say that the powder was somehow "hot" is very unlikely. That barrel needs to be looked at very carefully and do not run a cleaning brush down it or try to do anything else with it. I hope that you saved all of the brass that was fired that day as well. If all your "gunsmith" told you was that the brass was bonded to the chamber I would hope that you would ask for your money back because that's just fucking obvious. If he didn't have the tools to gauge the barrel he should not have been the one to look at it. What is Winchester doing about reimbursement for the ammo? What have they said about the damage? You should also ask what they plan to do about the time that you are now having to spend due to this screwup. It makes since why they want all the ammo back because once they do you have no evidence that it was their fault. I'm in to see what they say, but my bet is that they refund your money and tell you to piss off. If it were me I would have took pictures the moment it happened, documented everything, collected all the evidence, and had my lawyer contact them. If they pay to fix your gun that can be viewed as guilt on their part, the damage was done so they won't bother trying to fix it. So you're saying that multiple users of the same lot of ammo both had undercharged rounds leading to squibs that still cycled the action and were subsequently shot out of the barrel? Just wanting to confirm that in simpler terms. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 11:07:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I said before in this thread that I believe that this was due to a barrel obstruction. Since you cant overcharge the case with powder- Stopped reading right there |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:58:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Winchester OXFORD, MS was the label they sent me.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 8:18:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Winchester OXFORD, MS was the label they sent me. Interesting...guessing they probably have more of a setup there to do an investigation for a commercial application. First, I’ll say I’m in the camp that the Frontier issue was a projectile spec problem, not a loading problem. Nothing else coming from LC at the time had the same issue, and Hornady provided the pills for that product. LC loads their bullets in LC case with LC primer/powder. A couple of adders here...a significant overcharge or incorrect powder is highly unlikely. While powder lots do vary in density, it’s not terribly extreme. Some notes on proof rounds... The M197 proof round (no longer made) used a different powder and a similar projectile to get to proof level pressure. There’s none of that powder hanging out at LC at this point that would have accidentally been used. M197A1 proof round was developed to be able to use standard powder. To get to proof level pressure with standard powder, they had to use a longer 77 grain bullet to purposely set the projectile depth deep enough to generate higher pressures. The point in the above...never say never...but I’m in the camp of it being damn near impossible to load a 55 grain pill over the powder LC uses and getting to the point of generating kaboom pressures. Squib and a follower, I could buy that. You just never know though. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 8:47:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting...guessing they probably have more of a setup there to do an investigation for a commercial application. First, I’ll say I’m in the camp that the Frontier issue was a projectile spec problem, not a loading problem. Nothing else coming from LC at the time had the same issue, and Hornady provided the pills for that product. LC loads their bullets in LC case with LC primer/powder. A couple of adders here...a significant overcharge or incorrect powder is highly unlikely. While powder lots do vary in density, it’s not terribly extreme. Some notes on proof rounds... The M197 proof round (no longer made) used a different powder and a similar projectile to get to proof level pressure. There’s none of that powder hanging out at LC at this point that would have accidentally been used. M197A1 proof round was developed to be able to use standard powder. To get to proof level pressure with standard powder, they had to use a longer 77 grain bullet to purposely set the projectile depth deep enough to generate higher pressures. The point in the above...never say never...but I’m in the camp of it being damn near impossible to load a 55 grain pill over the powder LC uses and getting to the point of generating kaboom pressures. Squib and a follower, I could buy that. You just never know though. Scroll up 7 posts above yours |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:04:01 PM EDT
[#18]
It's all speculation until actual test results are in.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:16:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Scratching my head trying to figure out why anyone would send Winchester back "all the ammo" when personal injury occurred.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:04:16 PM EDT
[#20]
The "C8" in the lot number was also observed in several of the Hornady Frontier kabooms and/or overpressure events. I wonder what this recipe calls for?
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:08:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: UPDATE 5/5/21: Winchester wants all the ammo back from my buddy. They believe it may be dangerous and want to conduct some testing on it. The gunsmith said the barrel is toast because the brass is fused to the chamber. He did not notice any bulges or obvious damage but cannot get a good look in the chamber because of the fused brass. I had some WinClean 40SW ammo that somehow managed to disintegrate when ejected out of my EAA Witness MANY years ago, piece of the brass stuck in my safety glasses. Winchester said the same thing, send us what's left for testing. I asked later what happened and they said, what ammo? We don't know what you are talking about. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 3:34:20 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They asked for a write-up and invoice from the gunsmith. They haven't promised anything though. The OP described you suffered minor facial trauma from "shrapnel and recoil". This is no small matter. I get all the excitement about the "AR going Kaboom", but you might be approaching this in manner that is going to end up selling yourself short if you sustained any significant injury. I am not a lawyer, but by sending back "all the ammo", it would seem you are handing over you ability to refute Winchester who almost certainly intends/desires to deny any liability behind incident that led to personal injury. You might also want to rethink your readiness to send them invoice and assessment from the Gunsmith. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 7:20:45 AM EDT
[#23]
But somehow the military contract stuff never seems to Kaboom That's incorrect. While I was in we had a bad lot of M855. Random ammo was grossly over pressure. An M16A2 blew up very close to me. Very distinctive sound. The shooter had some tiny pieces of gun embedded in his firearm and face. Side of the upper blew completely out. Luckily he wore glasses (eye protection wasn't mandated in those days). We knew random guns were exploding, but they just let us shoot it out.  Some HEDP MK19 ammo was bad and nearly cost a guy a leg and his life. Nothing was done about it...aside from him getting out early with partial disability for losing a huge chunk of muscle out of his upper leg. As always, this thread is full of nonsense with a couple folks knowing how things actually work. I've heard of people being done dirty by manufacturers before. You almost need a lawyer to get anything done these days. Those pictured rounds definitely show signs of over pressure. An obstructed barrel tends to result in a more catastrophic KB with obvious signs. The myth of the AR OOB KB continues. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 8:55:45 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The OP described you suffered minor facial trauma from "shrapnel and recoil". This is no small matter. I get all the excitement about the "AR going Kaboom", but you might be approaching this in manner that is going to end up selling yourself short if you sustained any significant injury. I am not a lawyer, but by sending back "all the ammo", it would seem you are handing over you ability to refute Winchester who almost certainly intends/desires to deny any liability behind incident that led to personal injury. You might also want to rethink your readiness to send them invoice and assessment from the Gunsmith. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They asked for a write-up and invoice from the gunsmith. They haven't promised anything though. The OP described you suffered minor facial trauma from "shrapnel and recoil". This is no small matter. I get all the excitement about the "AR going Kaboom", but you might be approaching this in manner that is going to end up selling yourself short if you sustained any significant injury. I am not a lawyer, but by sending back "all the ammo", it would seem you are handing over you ability to refute Winchester who almost certainly intends/desires to deny any liability behind incident that led to personal injury. You might also want to rethink your readiness to send them invoice and assessment from the Gunsmith. Let’s be realistic here. It sounds like the shooter has completely recovered, still has all his parts and won’t require surgery. So if you keep the ammo you’ll need to have it independently tested. You’re going to have to test a lot of ammo, receive documentation and have an expert prepared to testify in court. Then you need a lawyer snd a retainer. COVID has slowed everything down so your case lingers for years. You finally have your day in court. Maybe you win. Odds are the judgement money may not even cover that you’ve already spent. Or send the ammo in snd maybe Winchester does something. Good chance they won’t do more than refund cost of ammo because if they do something then it may appear to admit guilt. But I’d have pulled down some and inspected/weighed the powder charges. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 9:12:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let’s be realistic here. It sounds like the shooter has completely recovered, still has all his parts and won’t require surgery. So if you keep the ammo you’ll need to have it independently tested. You’re going to have to test a lot of ammo, receive documentation and have an expert prepared to testify in court. Then you need a lawyer snd a retainer. COVID has slowed everything down so your case lingers for years. You finally have your day in court. Maybe you win. Odds are the judgement money may not even cover that you’ve already spent. Or send the ammo in snd maybe Winchester does something. Good chance they won’t do more than refund cost of ammo because if they do something then it may appear to admit guilt. But I’d have pulled down some and inspected/weighed the powder charges. This is where my head has been. I'm not inclined to immediately lawyer up and sue them. When this happened, I immediately took pictures and documented everything. I was in an official class at an official range with multiple witnesses. All the correspondence with Winchester has been in writing as well. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 9:59:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let’s be realistic here. It sounds like the shooter has completely recovered, still has all his parts and won’t require surgery. So if you keep the ammo you’ll need to have it independently tested. You’re going to have to test a lot of ammo, receive documentation and have an expert prepared to testify in court. Then you need a lawyer snd a retainer. COVID has slowed everything down so your case lingers for years. You finally have your day in court. Maybe you win. Odds are the judgement money may not even cover that you’ve already spent. Or send the ammo in snd maybe Winchester does something. Good chance they won’t do more than refund cost of ammo because if they do something then it may appear to admit guilt. But I’d have pulled down some and inspected/weighed the powder charges. Neither making blind assumptions, nor being unrealistic. The OP described "Minor Injuries" from "shrapnel and recoil" which leads one to believe some more serious injury occurred that may include lacerations, broken bones, or possibly even shrapnel retained in the soft tissue or embedded in bone. Suffering "minor soft tissue injuries" is not synonymous with "full recovery". If he suffered any of the more serious injuries due to faulty ammunition, Winchester would not want this going to court and likely there would be opportunity for fair settlement. I would not be fast to hand over all my leverage if these are the circumstances. He doesn't need to have the ammo independently tested; he simply needs not handing the whole lot back over to Winchester. If he only suffered a few small bruises and scratches, then that is obviously a different story, and the OP embellished description of the situation. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 10:06:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is where my head has been. I'm not inclined to immediately lawyer up and sue them. When this happened, I immediately took pictures and documented everything. I was in an official class at an official range with multiple witnesses. All the correspondence with Winchester has been in writing as well. From the response, we can assume you suffered nothing more than at most a mild scratch or bruise with no medical attention being required; and the OPs initial description of the situation was embellishment. That is fair. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 10:25:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Save a couple rounds (be sure to mark them) so that when Winchester comes back saying they tested it, all the rounds were good and your SOL for a weapon fix that you can then say “looks like I found a couple more from that batch. Maybe I’ll have an independent 3rd party test them to see what they say.”
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Posted: 5/12/2021 8:35:53 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the response, we can assume you suffered nothing more than at most a mild scratch or bruise with no medical attention being required; and the OPs initial description of the situation was embellishment. That is fair. I'm not sure where you got embellishment out of "Minor injuries to his face from shrapnel/recoil." Breaks in the dermis and contusions are considered "minor injuries." |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 9:02:54 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stopped reading right there Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I said before in this thread that I believe that this was due to a barrel obstruction. Since you cant overcharge the case with powder- Stopped reading right there X2 |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 11:25:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Scratching my head trying to figure out why anyone would send Winchester back "all the ammo" when personal injury occurred. Usually, if there was an ammo problem from a manufacturer. They would Iike to examine that particular lot of ammo made to see if they can confirm if there was an issue with that lot before they would issue a recall notice on that lot or other lot. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 1:46:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stopped reading right there Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I said before in this thread that I believe that this was due to a barrel obstruction. Since you cant overcharge the case with powder- Stopped reading right there I agree with the saying a .223 case can’t be overcharged is incorrect. Double charged? No. Overcharged? Yes. Here’s the rub - assume a standard factory powder for the rounds in question. If the cases were stuffed full of powder, how would the resulting pressure on detonation compare against the proof load capability of an AR-15? |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 2:17:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree with the saying a .223 case can’t be overcharged is incorrect. Double charged? No. Overcharged? Yes. Here’s the rub - assume a standard factory powder for the rounds in question. If the cases were stuffed full of laser, how would the resulting pressure on detonation compare against the proof load capability of an AR-15? Laser? |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 2:44:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Laser? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I agree with the saying a .223 case can’t be overcharged is incorrect. Double charged? No. Overcharged? Yes. Here’s the rub - assume a standard factory powder for the rounds in question. If the cases were stuffed full of laser, how would the resulting pressure on detonation compare against the proof load capability of an AR-15? Laser? Meant to say powder. Autocorrect assumed my fat finger fumbling was apparently “laser”. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 3:30:12 PM EDT
[#35]
What is the case head stamp?
Is there a NATO cross and LC? Is it WCC or WMA? The Oxford, Mississippi plant should have its own lab for military EPVAT testing to comply with law, government specs, and acquisition requirements. I'd imagine East Alton (WCC) would have the same, but that's a straight-out assumption. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 3:40:36 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Scratching my head trying to figure out why anyone would send Winchester back "all the ammo" when personal injury occurred. Keeping some of the ammo doesn’t prove anything. All other rounds may be perfectly fine. Keeping all the emails is far more important. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 3:51:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keeping some of the ammo doesn’t prove anything. All other rounds may be perfectly fine. Keeping all the emails is far more important. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Scratching my head trying to figure out why anyone would send Winchester back "all the ammo" when personal injury occurred. Keeping some of the ammo doesn’t prove anything. All other rounds may be perfectly fine. Keeping all the emails is far more important. I tend to agree. Keeping some of the ammunition doesn’t really do anyone much good unless they have access to expert testing. Personally, I would have pulled a few of the rounds and weighed the charges for my own personal edification, but really at this point the only real course of action is to act in good faith with Winchester. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 3:58:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Well this has me worried...
I have 200 rounds of Hornady Frontier 5.56 NATO 68 GR BTHP MATCH, LOT # WLC21C848-002 and 1,000 rounds of the Frontier 5.56 NATO 75 GR BTHP MATCH, LOT # WLC21A849-002 Both manufactured at Lake City under contract by Winchester in 2021. So seeing this post here in May 2021, by Winchester, + the whole saga with Hornady Frontier = me no likey. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 4:05:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know I'm just some random guy on the internet, but here's my two cents... I'm going with a barrel obstruction caused by the previous round being a squib. Here's why... Obvious extreme pressure signs on the case head. Extremely unlikely to be an overcharge. The way commercial ammo is made makes an UNDER charge more likely. I have experienced it myself. Had a 1000 rd can of Lake City M855 from 2000 or 2001 (don't remember which) that had NUMEROUS squibs. The first one I'll never forget. I was at a public range near Pensacola helping a shipmate get ready for his M16 qual using my personal rifle (circa 2007). Using this ammo. I was firing a string myself and something sounded "off" about the round I fired. Seemed muffled, but it was hard to tell with the ear pro. Spent case ejected, but no new hole poked in the target. Anywhere. Bolt did not pick up a fresh round from the mag. Out of an overabundance of caution, I stripped the rifle down and couldn't see thru the barrel. "Welp, we're done here." Packed it back into the case and took it home. Once I got it on the table at home, I figured out that the projectile was stuck just past the gas block. Got it removed and all was well. Going through the rest of that can, there must have been a dozen or more squib loads. All the rest made it out of the barrel, but bet your ass I was pulling the bolt to peek through every time one sounded "off". After that experience, I can easily see how in the "heat of the moment" of a training course one might clear a stoppage and get a "Tap, rack, BOOM." Happened to me with my issued Glock 19. the barrel was toast, but other than that the gun was fine. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 4:06:41 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure where you got embellishment out of "Minor injuries to his face from shrapnel/recoil." Breaks in the dermis and contusions are considered "minor injuries." "Minor injuries" encompasses a wide spectrum that includes just about any injury that is non-life threatening, doesn't limit mobility, or shorten life-span. You should just say "scratches and bruises". Stop trying to embellish it as potentially being more than what it was. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 5:14:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Minor injuries" encompasses a wide spectrum that includes just about any injury that is non-life threatening, doesn't limit mobility, or shorten life-span. You should just say "scratches and bruises". Stop trying to embellish it as potentially being more than what it was. This is Tech, dude. Not GD. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 5:52:03 PM EDT
[#42]
The US military uses non-canister grade powders. The burn rate of these powders varies from lot to lot.
   The ball powder used for US mil-spec M193 is WC-844. The canister grade version of this powder sold on the civilian market is Hodgdon H335. Per Quick-Load, a powder charge of 26.7 grains of H335 loaded with a 55 grain FMJ bullet produces a chamber pressure of 58,651 PSI and a muzzle velocity of 3242 FPS from a 20” barrel. This load has a fill ratio of 97.1%.   The 5.56mm cartridge case can accommodate a powder charge of upwards of 30.0 grains of ball powder and still seat a 55 grain FMJ bullet. This is a compressed load with a fill ratio of 109.1%. Per Quick-Load, a powder charge of 30.0 grains of H335 loaded with a 55 grain FMJ bullet would produce a chamber pressure of 90,722 PSI.   …. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 8:47:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The US military uses non-canister grade powders. The burn rate of these powders varies from lot to lot. The ball powder used for US mil-spec M193 is WC-844. The canister grade version of this powder sold on the civilian market is Hodgdon H335. Per Quick-Load, a powder charge of 26.7 grains of H335 loaded with a 55 grain FMJ bullet produces a chamber pressure of 58,651 PSI and a muzzle velocity of 3242 FPS from a 20” barrel. This load has a fill ratio of 97.1%. The 5.56mm cartridge case can accommodate a powder charge of upwards of 30.0 grains of ball powder and still seat a 55 grain FMJ bullet. This is a compressed load with a fill ratio of 109.1%. Per Quick-Load, a powder charge of 30.0 grains of H335 loaded with a 55 grain FMJ bullet would produce a chamber pressure of 90,722 PSI. …. Great infomation as per usual Molon. For what it is worth, I load a fair amount of WC844. The charge that tested best for bulk loads with the lot I am currently using is 26.5 grains, producing an average of 3,180fps from a 20" 5.56mm chambered barrel. HOWEVER, that data CANNOT be applied universally to other lots of WC844. All of my WC844 data, as well as data from many other posters WITH LOT NUMBERS INCLUDED, can be found in the WC844 thread(s) archived in the reloading section. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 9:47:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The US military uses non-canister grade powders. The burn rate of these powders varies from lot to lot. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/wc846_001-1939685.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/wc846_002-1939688.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/wc846_003-1939687.jpg The ball powder used for US mil-spec M193 is WC-844. The canister grade version of this powder sold on the civilian market is Hodgdon H335. Per Quick-Load, a powder charge of 26.7 grains of H335 loaded with a 55 grain FMJ bullet produces a chamber pressure of 58,651 PSI and a muzzle velocity of 3242 FPS from a 20” barrel. This load has a fill ratio of 97.1%. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/h335_23_7_grains_with_55_fmj_data_001-1939671.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/h335_26_7_grains_with_55_fmj_pressure_cu-1939672.jpg The 5.56mm cartridge case can accommodate a powder charge of upwards of 30.0 grains of ball powder and still seat a 55 grain FMJ bullet. This is a compressed load with a fill ratio of 109.1%. Per Quick-Load, a powder charge of 30.0 grains of H335 loaded with a 55 grain FMJ bullet would produce a chamber pressure of 90,722 PSI. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/h335_30_grains_with_55_fmj_pressure_data-1939674.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/h335_30_grains_with_55_fmj_pressure_curv-1939673.jpg …. To be your shadow for a month... fantastic information |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 10:10:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Minor injuries" encompasses a wide spectrum that includes just about any injury that is non-life threatening, doesn't limit mobility, or shorten life-span. You should just say "scratches and bruises". Stop trying to embellish it as potentially being more than what it was. He did not "embellish". The user could have been injured far worse. This IS serious shit and should be taken seriously. Until we find out what happened we don't want to make accusations, but we don't want to diminish the seriousness. If this proves to be ammo related, others might sustain kaboom with more serious injuries. Molon has shown us that an over charge of 30 grains of WC844 (like the H335 I use for my M193 equivalent) is capable of almost 91,000 psi. |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 11:07:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Still say it's a squib.
This looks just like what OP shows and this was a full power supersonic 300 blackout. Barrel was EDM cut to see what really happened. The bullet was pushed out of the barrel. Video starts to explain things at 4:30 https://m.facebook.com/2ATacticalLLC/videos/817472548661504/?refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Famp-reddit-com.cdn.ampproject.org%2Fv%2Fs%2Famp.reddit.com%2Fr%2Far15%2Fcomments%2Fgfhpw6%2Fkaboom%2F&_rdr   And for those still say it was "overcharged" I contend that this cannot happen with this round. This wasn't made in someone's garage with hobby equipment. The machines that manufactures use cost 100s of thousands of dollars and have saftey equipment that it built into it to prevent such things from happening. Each case is checked by machine to see if it was overcharged. Undercharges could potentially get through. This video shows every step that is taken at a federal plant. From making primers, extruding lead, filling the powder hopper, all of it.  A Look Inside The Federal Ammunition Factory - American Shooter S1, E4 |
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Posted: 5/12/2021 11:07:42 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He did not "embellish". The user could have been injured far worse. This IS serious shit and should be taken seriously. Until we find out what happened we don't want to make accusations, but we don't want to diminish the seriousness. If this proves to be ammo related, others might sustain kaboom with more serious injuries. Molon has shown us that an over charge of 30 grains of WC844 (like the H335 I use for my M193 equivalent) is capable of almost 91,000 psi. Technically, "shrapnel injury" implies penetrating injury and wound (more serious than scratches and contusions). Believe me, I was initially very concerned for the welfare and interest of the involved individual, and I am glad he is okay without any penetrating injuries. We all need to remember this is not GD. Nice presentation by Molon. |
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Posted: 5/13/2021 1:19:24 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still say it's a squib. This looks just like what OP shows and this was a full power supersonic 300 blackout. Barrel was EDM cut to see what really happened. The bullet was pushed out of the barrel. Video starts to explain things at 4:30 https://m.facebook.com/2ATacticalLLC/videos/817472548661504/?refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Famp-reddit-com.cdn.ampproject.org%2Fv%2Fs%2Famp.reddit.com%2Fr%2Far15%2Fcomments%2Fgfhpw6%2Fkaboom%2F&_rdr https://i.ibb.co/kQ4RSMq/20210512-215758.jpg https://i.ibb.co/qr2YSDz/20210512-215837.jpg And for those still say it was "overcharged" I contend that this cannot happen with this round. This wasn't made in someone's garage with hobby equipment. The machines that manufactures use cost 100s of thousands of dollars and have saftey equipment that it built into it to prevent such things from happening. Each case is checked by machine to see if it was overcharged. Undercharges could potentially get through. This video shows every step that is taken at a federal plant. From making primers, extruding lead, filling the powder hopper, all of it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_O9gSKFguUYou’re still wrong. |
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Posted: 5/13/2021 2:03:37 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’re still wrong. I provided evidence to back up my claims. You only have given speculation. Do you wish to recant your "magically cleared by a subsequent bullet" statement? You did see what happened to that barrel in the video didn't you.? That wasn't magic, its called physics. |
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Posted: 5/13/2021 6:56:10 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you're saying that multiple users of the same lot of ammo both had undercharged rounds leading to squibs that still cycled the action and were subsequently shot out of the barrel? Just wanting to confirm that in simpler terms. What I am saying is that instead of jumping to a conclusion based on what little facts we have is not going to tell the whole story. Overcharges are things that happen most often at home when people are either careless or do not have the proper equipment. I'm an industrial setting it would be called gross negligence. Policies, procedures, training, and equipment are put in place to eliminate this risk. But companies are known to cut corners on materials to save money and increase production. Consider this. I take it the lot you have is from mid 2020 correct? Do you know that the manufactures explained that a breakdown began in the supply chain, and they all cited shortages of lead, steel, copper, and brass. While I dont believe that they would ignore saftey to put out more ammunition to meet the demand I would not put it past some engineer to make the copper jackets thinner and make materials go farther. Those bullets may have been engineered to withstand .223 pressures and not 556. This is speculation of course but everything is without the evidence. And that Is why they wanted the ammo back. |
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