Fore grips on ARs with braces. - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fore grips on ARs with braces.

Posted: 6/24/2019 10:09:23 PM EDT

I made this graphic for a friend who was having a hard time understanding the rules regarding vertical grips on ARs with braces. I used Gunstruction to create it so I figured this would be a good place to share it. I also though some people here may find it useful or interesting.

http://imgur.com/CFCffrU

One thing I couldn't convey in a brief manner is the common misunderstanding that the ATF is completely ok with you building a pistol with the intent to shoulder it. This is not the case. In the letter OPEN LETTER ON THE REDESIGN OF “STABILIZING BRACES” published by the ATF they state that incidentally shouldering a brace during use does not redesign a pistol to be an SBR, but using a brace with the intent to treat it as a stock does classify it as an NFA item. You can read the document at this URL: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-jan2015-open-letter-redesign-stabilizing-braces

Is there anything else you would add that could help clear things up for somebody that isn't familiar with these laws?

Posted: 6/24/2019 10:29:47 PM EDT

[#1]

Folding braces/receiver extension devices are measured in the Folded position when determining OAL.
Braces are measured fully extended when determining OAL.
Muzzle devices do NOT count toward OAL UNLESS they are permanently attached via pre approved ATF method.
ETA: 26" OAL only matters for the purpose of attaching a VFG to a pistol to avoid turning it into an AOW, and a 'firearm' instead, nothing else.

Posted: 6/24/2019 11:25:55 PM EDT

[#2]

Need to send a letter (form?) to atf when one will be transporting nfa items across state lines but do not have to get, or wait for permission.

Needs, or maybe I just need, clarification.

Posted: 6/24/2019 11:48:25 PM EDT

[#3]

If its got a 16" or longer barrel, no problem.
If under 16" barrel, can put a VFG if over 26" oal.
An AFG is not a VFG and can be put on anything.

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:10:58 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
Folding braces/receiver extension devices are measured in the Folded position when determining OAL.
Braces are measured fully extended when determining OAL.
Muzzle devices do NOT count toward OAL UNLESS they are permanently attached via pre approved ATF method.
ETA: 26" OAL only matters for the purpose of attaching a VFG to a pistol to avoid turning it into an AOW, and a 'firearm' instead, nothing else.

View Quote

Are people assuming braces are measured the same as stocks, (fully extended) or is there an opinion letter on this?

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:24:47 AM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:

Are people assuming braces are measured the same as stocks, (fully extended) or is there an opinion letter on this?

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Precedent set as of ATF raid on The Freedom Shoppe.

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:28:14 AM EDT

[#6]

Pistol with OAL <26" made from a rifle = SBR.
You can assemble a pistol from a stripped receiver but if you assemble the same pistol from a receiver that was first assembled as a rifle it would be "made from a rifle" and therfore an SBR (without a stock).

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:43:54 AM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

Precedent set as of ATF raid on The Freedom Shoppe.

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Thanks for the info!

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:47:01 AM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
Pistol with OAL <26" made from a rifle = SBR.
You can assemble a pistol from a stripped receiver but if you assemble the same pistol from a receiver that was first assembled as a rifle it would be "made from a rifle" and therfore an SBR (without a stock).

View Quote

You can't make a pistol from a rifle. Unless it starts out as a pistol first, from my understanding.

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:55:07 AM EDT

[#9]

You can convert a pistol to a rifle and back to a pistol at will.

You can also keep the items required to convert your pistol into a rifle with your pistol and it is not constructive intent to create an SBR. See the United States vs Thompson Center Arms Company. They tried to get them over a Contender kit.

Correct, if it is a rifle first it cannot ever be a pistol. Receivers are marked as Other and can be made into either.

Also the definition of a SBR is a rifle that has a barrel shorter than 16 inches or has an overall length shorter than 26 inches. That is why the tavor has that big butt pad on it; to bring it up to 26 inches.

Posted: 6/25/2019 5:50:23 AM EDT

[#10]

You mention concealing a "firearm". The ATF letter where they said you could put a vertical grip on a pistol over 26" and thus make it a "firearm" also specifically stated that if you conceal it on your person it becomes an AOW.

Posted: 6/25/2019 10:44:44 AM EDT

[#11]

Attached File

Posted: 6/25/2019 11:05:11 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/448813/349lda_jpg-992788.JPG

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"...So if this equals this, carry the five, multiply by Pi, roll that integer into the Zeta function... *sniff-sniff* Why do I smell toast???..."

Posted: 6/25/2019 11:12:33 AM EDT

[#13]

Your scope mount is too far forward! You'll lose your zero!

Posted: 6/25/2019 11:23:34 AM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/448813/349lda_jpg-992788.JPG

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LOL, yea, I'm sure it's a bit confusing for someone just starting out with pistols. The OP has a good idea, as far as posting pictures to help clarify. A sticky in the AR pistol section with pictures, different configurations and blueprint type measurements would probably help many people out. Surprised no one has done this yet.

Posted: 6/25/2019 11:29:31 AM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/448813/349lda_jpg-992788.JPG

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Downloading that.

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:34:22 PM EDT

[#16]

Good idea OP. Should be a sticky.

This has got to be the subject of more questions and dissent than anything else re: pistols.

Posted: 6/25/2019 12:55:21 PM EDT

[#17]

Appreciate the time and effort put into this.

Posted: 6/25/2019 7:50:16 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
You mention concealing a "firearm". The ATF letter where they said you could put a vertical grip on a pistol over 26" and thus make it a "firearm" also specifically stated that if you conceal it on your person it becomes an AOW.

View Quote

Do you happen to have a link to that? Where I put my firearm has no bearing on how it is designed. If they actually said that it's just another example of how asinine their rules are.

Posted: 6/25/2019 7:52:01 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:
Your scope mount is too far forward! You'll lose your zero!

View Quote

It's just an image made using Gunstruction. No zeros were harmed in the making of this graphic.

Posted: 6/25/2019 8:10:25 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Pistol with OAL <26" made from a rifle = SBR.
You can assemble a pistol from a stripped receiver but if you assemble the same pistol from a receiver that was first assembled as a rifle it would be "made from a rifle" and therfore an SBR (without a stock).

View Quote

This is another topic I had to explain to a different friend of mine recently. The purpose of this graphic was to explain the rules regarding fore grips and I couldn't think of a clean way to go over this as well, but it probably would have been worth putting in there.

Posted: 6/25/2019 8:11:21 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

Do you happen to have a link to that? Where I put my firearm has no bearing on how it is designed. If they actually said that it's just another example of how asinine their rules are.

View Quote

Now you're getting there...

Posted: 6/25/2019 8:17:51 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
LOL, yea, I'm sure it's a bit confusing for someone just starting out with pistols. The OP has a good idea, as far as posting pictures to help clarify. A sticky in the AR pistol section with pictures, different configurations and blueprint type measurements would probably help many people out. Surprised no one has done this yet.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/448813/349lda_jpg-992788.JPG

LOL, yea, I'm sure it's a bit confusing for someone just starting out with pistols. The OP has a good idea, as far as posting pictures to help clarify. A sticky in the AR pistol section with pictures, different configurations and blueprint type measurements would probably help many people out. Surprised no one has done this yet.

I didn't even consider that this might be better in the pistol section. I would be happy to collaborate with you guys to consolidate all the information that we can get on this topic and then post a more comprehensive set of graphics in the pistol section. I think helping people understand the intricacies of these rules is important. I have two friends who very nearly unwittingly committed felonies in the past week because they didn't realize some of these rules existed.

Posted: 6/25/2019 9:02:10 PM EDT

[#23]

Thanks for sharing.

Posted: 6/25/2019 9:47:37 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I made this graphic for a friend who was having a hard time understanding the rules regarding vertical grips on ARs with braces. I used Gunstruction to create it so I figured this would be a good place to share it. I also though some people here may find it useful or interesting.

http://imgur.com/CFCffrU.jpg
http://imgur.com/CFCffrU

One thing I couldn't convey in a brief manner is the common misunderstanding that the ATF is completely ok with you building a pistol with the intent to shoulder it. This is not the case. In the letter OPEN LETTER ON THE REDESIGN OF “STABILIZING BRACES” published by the ATF they state that incidentally shouldering a brace during use does not redesign a pistol to be an SBR, but using a brace with the intent to treat it as a stock does classify it as an NFA item. You can read the document at this URL: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-jan2015-open-letter-redesign-stabilizing-braces

Is there anything else you would add that could help clear things up for somebody that isn't familiar with these laws?

View Quote

Incidental contact with shoulder while firing is a bitch.

Posted: 6/25/2019 10:14:03 PM EDT

[#25]

your dog is getting shot either way should be appended to bottom of graphic...

Posted: 6/25/2019 10:54:12 PM EDT

[#26]

A approve of this helpful, and all encompassing view, of the silliness we find ourselves in.

Posted: 6/25/2019 11:35:32 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

It's just an image made using Gunstruction. No zeros were harmed in the making of this graphic.

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Sarcasm my friend lol

Posted: 6/26/2019 7:13:29 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
Do you happen to have a link to that? Where I put my firearm has no bearing on how it is designed. If they actually said that it's just another example of how asinine their rules are.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
You mention concealing a "firearm". The ATF letter where they said you could put a vertical grip on a pistol over 26" and thus make it a "firearm" also specifically stated that if you conceal it on your person it becomes an AOW.

Do you happen to have a link to that? Where I put my firearm has no bearing on how it is designed. If they actually said that it's just another example of how asinine their rules are.

The definition of a AOL states "a concealable firearm". There is no codified definition of concealable, so no official length. The 26" length is an ATF opinion based off the 26"OAL of SBR/SBS definition. So the arbitrary length of 26" was decided on as a limit of concealability. However if the 26 or greater "firearm" is concealed on the person then it is concealable and therefore now meets the definition of an AOW.

Posted: 6/26/2019 7:17:40 AM EDT

[#29]

Oh and a AOW (and SBR/SBS) is less than 26" OAL not 26" or less.

Posted: 6/26/2019 7:36:08 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
You can convert a pistol to a rifle and back to a pistol at will.

You can also keep the items required to convert your pistol into a rifle with your pistol and it is not constructive intent to create an SBR. See the United States vs Thompson Center Arms Company. They tried to get them over a Contender kit.

View Quote

This point is incorrect. Thompson paid the tax on the Contender Kit and then sued to get it back arguing it wasn't a SBR. The ATF didn't go after Thompson, it was the other way around, Thompson want after the ATF.

Posted: 6/26/2019 11:12:06 PM EDT

[#31]

It's 16.1" barrel length, not 16".

Posted: 6/27/2019 12:26:29 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
It's 16.1" barrel length, not 16".

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No, 16" is completely correct and is the number cited in all the definitions. Many manufacturers use 16.1" to account for minor variations in tolerances and thus avoid inadvertently creating an SBR. If they tried to get 16" on the nose and one happened to be .02" too short, that'd be a problem.

Posted: 6/28/2019 12:29:32 AM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:

The definition of a AOL states "a concealable firearm". There is no codified definition of concealable, so no official length. The 26" length is an ATF opinion based off the 26"OAL of SBR/SBS definition. So the arbitrary length of 26" was decided on as a limit of concealability. However if the 26 or greater "firearm" is concealed on the person then it is concealable and therefore now meets the definition of an AOW.

https://i.imgur.com/wmLevpJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NRLijSd.jpg

View Quote

"capable of being concealed on the person"

It seems to me that concealing a weapon in a vehicle does not meet this standard. I may have it concealed in my vehicle because it is too large to conceal on my person. Some states' concealed firearm permits extend to concealing a loaded weapon in a vehicle but do not explicitly restrict that weapon to a pistol. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so long as your state allows concealing a loaded firearm in a vehicle as part of your carry permit then it would extend to those classified as Firearms.

Posted: 6/28/2019 7:10:06 AM EDT

[#34]

I didn't think of vehicle carry. Yeah it only talks about on your person. State laws are a whole nother thing.

Posted: 6/28/2019 9:15:29 AM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
I didn't think of vehicle carry. Yeah it only talks about on your person. State laws are a whole nother thing.

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As an example, in Utah you can legally carry a loaded firearm in your car even without a concealed carry permit, unless that firearm is a "rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle". It doesn't specifically state that the law allows handguns, it disallows those three specific types. Seems that a Firearm would be allowed.

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter10/76-10-S505.html

I guess I just figured if you have an AR that is over 26" long the only place people will try to conceal it is in their vehicle since it is too long to reasonably conceal on their person. I may need to find a good way to convey that if I do an updated graphic.

Posted: 6/29/2019 12:06:16 PM EDT

[#36]

Nice job...thanks for posting.

The only thing I can think of that I haven't seen addressed is the "Firearm" 26+" requirement is measured from the end of the barrel (not the muzzle device) to the end of the brace fully extended.

...And also the max 13.5" LOP on the pistol braces.

Posted: 7/8/2019 12:08:51 AM EDT

[#37]

Things are ever-changing. The ATF has now stated that a brace is not to be included in the measurement of overall length of a pistol. The following link has an image and PDF download of the letter.

https://www.recoilweb.com/measuring-the-overall-length-of-a-pistol-atf-has-altered-the-deal-151346.html

If you have a pistol and wish to add a vertical foregrip to make it a Firearm you may want to remeasure to make sure you aren't actually creating an AOW.

Posted: 7/8/2019 12:13:24 AM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
Things are ever-changing. The ATF has now stated that a brace is not to be included in the measurement of overall length of a pistol. The following link has an image and PDF download of the letter.

https://www.recoilweb.com/measuring-the-overall-length-of-a-pistol-atf-has-altered-the-deal-151346.html

If you have a pistol and wish to add a vertical foregrip to make it a Firearm you may want to remeasure to make sure you aren't actually creating an AOW.

View Quote

Discounting the 32 dupes in GD.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/ATF-Changes-position-with-Stabilizing-Brace-/122-741745/

Posted: 7/8/2019 9:00:00 AM EDT

[#39]

Trying to consolidate information here. Felt it was pertinent to the thread. Didn't start a new one about it, just mentioned it in a thread that was already discussing this topic. No harm intended.

Posted: 7/8/2019 9:11:11 AM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
Trying to consolidate information here. Felt it was pertinent to the thread. Didn't start a new one about it, just mentioned it in a thread that was already discussing this topic. No harm intended.

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I also felt the information was relative to this thread.

Posted: 7/8/2019 10:53:30 AM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Trying to consolidate information here. Felt it was pertinent to the thread. Didn't start a new one about it, just mentioned it in a thread that was already discussing this topic. No harm intended.

View Quote

No offense was taken or meant in return, was just trying to inform as well that the topic is actually being covered in the pistol forum as well.