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11/9/2018 9:21:38 PM
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Link Posted: 9/10/2018 7:45:30 PM EST
The fwd assist most often gets damaged and jams up the gun when it is hit while the rifle is firing.
Link Posted: 9/10/2018 10:08:57 PM EST
Very interesting discussion and comments.
I, personally, have never seen a forward assist breakage, good info to know.
Link Posted: 9/10/2018 11:31:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:

So you are saying your knowledge of the system is better than...

Eugene Stoner
Pat Rogers
Clint Smith

I KNOW my knowledge doesn’t equal theirs.
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Didn't St. Eugene decline to chrome the bore?

Oh noes!
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 12:28:39 AM EST
"Yes i feel a forward assist is a must have in a combat carbine – one of those ‘in case all else fails’ devices that is a nice to have item on your weapon" Larry Vickers

"The AR15 family of rifles was designed to have a Sturmgewehr inspired dust cover and all variants should in fact have one – if they don’t they fall into the category of guns for games and not guns for fighting." Larry Vickers

Larry Vickers of Vickers Tactical in a retired US Army 1st SFOD-Delta combat veteran with years of experience in the firearms industry as a combat marksmanship instructor and industry consultant. In recent years he has hosted tactical firearms related TV shows on the Sportsman Channel with the latest being TacTV of which Bravo Company is a presenting sponsor.Larry Vickers special operations background is one of the most unique in the industry today; he has been directly or indirectly involved in the some of the most significant special operations missions of the last quarter century. During Operation Just Cause he participated in Operation Acid Gambit – the rescue of Kurt Muse from Modelo Prison in Panama City, Panama. As a tactics and marksmanship instructor on active duty he helped train special operations personnel that later captured Saddam Hussein and eliminated his sons Uday and Qusay Hussein. In addition he was directly involved in the design and development of the HK416 for Tier One SOF use which was used by Naval Special Warfare personnel to kill Osama Bin Laden.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 2:12:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2018 2:14:32 AM EST by vicious_cb]
Yes it is a potential catastrophic failure point although a highly unlikely one,increased if you are doing alot of barricade shooting. If you feel like the cons out weigh the benefits then remove it since its not necessary to the functioning of the rifle and you can do the same thing by thumbing forward in the bolt carrier notch.

You can always fill the hole with this, a plus if you are running suppressed.




https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 2:18:46 AM EST
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Originally Posted By caser:

Didn't St. Eugene decline to chrome the bore?

Oh noes!
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No that was the SecDef Mcnamera
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 4:29:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2018 4:30:59 AM EST by MRW]
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 4:42:02 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Glock63:

This is a never ending argument here. It's been going on since I registered in 1999, and it will continue long after I'm dead.
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Yep! Though I do like OP’s dramatic title.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 5:18:09 AM EST
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Originally Posted By vicious_cb:
Yes it is a potential catastrophic failure point although a highly unlikely one,increased if you are doing alot of barricade shooting. If you feel like the cons out weigh the benefits then remove it since its not necessary to the functioning of the rifle and you can do the same thing by thumbing forward in the bolt carrier notch.

You can always fill the hole with this, a plus if you are running suppressed.

https://www.rainierarms.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/e/7/e7571f5f3369e85b49ad39cf24d717c9.jpg
https://www.rainierarms.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/i/m/image_18956.jpg

https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html
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For $38.99, I'll keep my forward assist!
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 6:05:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 6:54:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bigjunk1:

As far as the forward assist goes, I still prefer to have it as to not have it. What happened in your case is not common and the chance of it happening is worth the risk, IMO.
I bet the pin was installed wrong or the wrong pin was used or the pin hole size in the upper was drilled wrong or the forward assist was damaged or installed wrong. I don't see a properly installed forward assist falling out and the pin snapping from no tension would only happen if the pin was rusted/ corroded or not fit properly.
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Most issues I have seen with the forward assist are operator induced. Especially off a bench. People rotate their thumb up (for right handed people) this places their thumb on the forward assist side of the upper instead of wrapped around the pistol grip. They squeeze a round off, recoil pushes gun back and their thumb into the forward assist. Closing the assist as the bolt starts moving backwards. At this point something has to give. Usually the roll pin snaps and the assist is ejected.

Link Posted: 9/11/2018 10:22:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sorionc:
Most issues I have seen with the forward assist are operator induced. Especially off a bench. People rotate their thumb up (for right handed people) this places their thumb on the forward assist side of the upper instead of wrapped around the pistol grip. They squeeze a round off, recoil pushes gun back and their thumb into the forward assist. Closing the assist as the bolt starts moving backwards. At this point something has to give. Usually the roll pin snaps and the assist is ejected.

https://i.imgur.com/qZTq4ob.jpg
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I forgot the M40A3 or "Cali" grip is a thing now.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 2:16:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:

So we smack it with a mallet, IT DOESN’T MOVE!!!

So we get a brass plate and wail on it with a large hammer, it slowly moves with each blow.
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It seems most all FA haters are fond of smashing, smacking, hammering, bashing, ect on their ARs.

Correlation or causation?

Just Sayin.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 5:48:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2018 5:49:44 PM EST by ArmyPilot12]
Meh. 26 years in the Army, beaucoup 5.56mm put down range from M16A1, M16A2, M4, and M4A1. I never saw a FA break or jam a rifle but have used it on occasion. I guess the OP is smarter than DOD.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 5:59:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 6:47:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyPilot12:
Meh. 26 years in the Army, beaucoup 5.56mm put down range from M16A1, M16A2, M4, and M4A1. I never saw a FA break or jam a rifle but have used it on occasion. I guess the OP is smarter than DOD.
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Quoted For Truth!

I've never seen the mere presence of a Forward Assist cause a jam or malfunction in over a decade of use with the Marines.

And I have seen a FA help get a rifle back into action after a bit of sand/dirt caused it to not fully seat a round. Heck, I've even done it myself.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 7:15:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 7:30:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sniper3142:

I've never seen the mere presence of a Forward Assist cause a jam or malfunction in over a decade of use with the Marines.

And I have seen a FA help get a rifle back into action after a bit of sand/dirt caused it to not fully seat a round. Heck, I've even done it myself.
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My experience is exactly the opposite. I've only seen it cause problems.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 7:36:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2018 7:37:56 PM EST by JohnBurns]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
This wasn’t covered in the Colt L.E. Armorers course.

So how would YOU have cleared it?
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By JohnBurns:

It seems most all FA haters are fond of smashing, smacking, hammering, bashing, ect on their ARs.

Correlation or causation?

Just Sayin.
This wasn’t covered in the Colt L.E. Armorers course.

So how would YOU have cleared it?
From the hindsight is 20/20 file.

Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Remove the forward assist, just drive out the pin and pull out everything you can. Then shine a light down the tunnel. If you can see where the pawl is caught you may be able to work the bolt carrier in the proper direction to get it loose. That's what I've done when I encountered this malfunction.
Typically this rare malfunction is from the FA being pushed forward during firing and the BCG needs to move rearward slightly to free the pawl.

The roll pin does not simply fail without significant force being applied and as we can see from your picts the pin is still holding the FA in the upper so the pin failed due to the FA being pushed during firing.

BCG moving rearward grabs the extended pawl and snaps roll pin freeing the pawl.

Pawl is loose and BCG moves forward and free pawl joins it jamming the action on the forward stroke.

Most likely you needed to move the BCG backwards to free the jam and hammering it forward obviously split the upper when the pawl and the BCG were beaten into a space with room only for the BCG.

Giving up the proven advantages of the FA to avoid a very rare and preventable jam might not be the best answer.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 7:55:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 7:58:13 PM EST
You are ALL wrong, the only fix for that shit is AK, problem SOLVED...…...
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 8:01:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JohnBurns:

Typically this rare malfunction is from the FA being pushed forward during firing and the BCG needs to move rearward slightly to free the pawl.
View Quote
The time I saw it happen the pawl itself broke. It was on the firing line, so I didn't witness the shooter, but they denied using the FA. They were shooting from prone at the time so no way the FA was jammed against a barricade. It was an issued M4, so no telling what kind of abuse it had been through before.
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 8:14:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:

So would that be the same DOD as the one in the sixties that set out to deliberately sabotage the M-16 platform by using ball powder instead of IMR powder, even after both Stoner and Colt stated the calcium carbonate in the ball powder would result in malfunctions?

THAT DOD???
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In case you didn't notice, it's 2018 not 1964. Springfield Armory, the real one, were the main saboteurs and they closed long ago.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 5:40:48 PM EST
there's actually some good information in this thread, aside from the zealotry and religious diatribe and worship at the altar of No-Forward-Assist vs. those that drink from the Chalice of the FA.

1. how the pin breaks: from riding the FA while BCG going rearward. or wall banging (banging into the wall/barricade, not gamer shooting through the wall).

2. subtle: the failure might not manifest itself right away, but could happen later, perhaps next shooting session, even different shooter. This is evidenced by the swearing on the stack-of-bibles and all-that-is-holy that "I dinndo nuffin", didn't touch the forward assist when it broke, probably was the previous bloke.

the 2nd point implies that when the pin is caused to fail from 1st point, that perhaps it might not be a 100% failure, maybe 90% failure, but still operator induced. And that the remaining 10% failure could be just from the vibration and shock of continued shooting, and then the innocent party is left holding the bag.

sure are a lot of religious figures of speech here. it's almost as if some folks believe that when you get to The Pearly Gates, Saint Peter is going to ask you if believe in the FA or not, and so it's a mission to gain as many converts as possible. almost a GD discussion.

kinda funny, certainly humorous to spectate, but still yet, informative.

thank you, gentlemen.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 5:45:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 6:17:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2018 6:36:17 PM EST by lysanderxiii]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyPilot12:
In case you didn't notice, it's 2018 not 1964. Springfield Armory, the real one, were the main saboteurs and they closed long ago.
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Originally Posted By ArmyPilot12:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:

So would that be the same DOD as the one in the sixties that set out to deliberately sabotage the M-16 platform by using ball powder instead of IMR powder, even after both Stoner and Colt stated the calcium carbonate in the ball powder would result in malfunctions?

THAT DOD???
In case you didn't notice, it's 2018 not 1964. Springfield Armory, the real one, were the main saboteurs and they closed long ago.
1) No one, Stoner or Colt, stated that Ball propellant would result in malfunctions. What they (Colt, Springfield, Frankfort, and Olin) stated was, the M16 should be tested with ball propellant to see if there is an incompatibility.

2) Not all ball propellant caused problems, only certain lots that had calcium carbonate percentages at the high end of the tolerance band. The only difference between WC 844, which is the primary propellant used to this day, and WC 846 is the allowable calcium carbonate percentage.

3) The people that nixed the proposed testing were the OSD's hand picked crew of project managers, not Springfield Armory, nor Frankfort Arsenal.

4) Here's the one that will make the disciples of saint Eugene mad. The underlying problem is Stoner's fault. Stoner's .222 Special cartridge was and is too small to provide the velocity required by the Army, 3300 fps, later reduced to 3250 fps at a maximum chamber pressure of 50,000 psi. The case should have been about 0.090" longer (.222 Magnum) in order to do this with a good buffer for production variability. The lack of volume leads to a very narrow band of propellant properties that required select lots of IMR propellant to meet the velocity and pressure requirements. And, being picky about propellant lots is not an option in full scale ammunition production. In fact, the problem was so bad the allowable pressure had to bumped up 2000 psi, and they still had trouble meeting the requirements, to the point that no company would bid on the 5.56mm production until ball propellant was introduced. Stoner's error is still with us today in the form of 62,000 psi max pressures to get required velocity out of 62 grain solid copper bullets.

All this information is in "the bible", Stevens' and Ezell's tome of the subject.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 6:22:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2018 6:22:47 PM EST by PursuitSS]
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 6:47:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:The upper was being fired for the first time, I was observing it being fired from the bench. So how did he fire it with the Forward Assist engaged?

IT WAS NOT “OPERATOR INDUCED!”
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So, do we know this FA was installed correctly? Or, was the pin hole correctly placed? Either way, it's not the FA's fault.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 7:23:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2018 7:41:57 PM EST by ArmyPilot12]
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:

IT WAS NOT “OPERATOR INDUCED!”
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So the FA miracled itself forward?

It was either pushed forward by the operator during the firing sequence (operator induced), the rifle was so gunked up that the spring couldn't overcome the resistance of said gunk if the operator pushed the FA forward during loading (operator maintenance), the FA spring broke (operator maintenance), or the roll pin failed (operator/builder maintenance). From the photos posted the rifle didn't look especially dirty, the FA itself is fully extended, and I've never seen a roll pin break without significant force applied.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 9:49:17 PM EST
If I removed every part from a rifle that I’ve seen break, I’d be left with a USGI rear sling swivel.

Given the failure rate of a forward assist, I think I’ll sleep just fine with them on my rifles.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 9:52:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ArmyPilot12:
So the FA miracled itself forward?

It was either pushed forward by the operator during the firing sequence (operator induced), the rifle was so gunked up that the spring couldn't overcome the resistance of said gunk if the operator pushed the FA forward during loading (operator maintenance), the FA spring broke (operator maintenance), or the roll pin failed (operator/builder maintenance). From the photos posted the rifle didn't look especially dirty, the FA itself is fully extended, and I've never seen a roll pin break without significant force applied.
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Originally Posted By ArmyPilot12:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:

IT WAS NOT "OPERATOR INDUCED!"
So the FA miracled itself forward?

It was either pushed forward by the operator during the firing sequence (operator induced), the rifle was so gunked up that the spring couldn't overcome the resistance of said gunk if the operator pushed the FA forward during loading (operator maintenance), the FA spring broke (operator maintenance), or the roll pin failed (operator/builder maintenance). From the photos posted the rifle didn't look especially dirty, the FA itself is fully extended, and I've never seen a roll pin break without significant force applied.
Or it had a material defect and the vibration from shooting caused it to let go.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 10:04:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 10:13:50 PM EST
Were you able to find the roll pin for the pawl? Wondering if maybe it wasn't installed or if the hole for it was slightly oversized allowing the pin to vibrate loose.
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 10:55:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2018 11:39:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Reading is fundamental, it was NEW!
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So it was an improperly manufactured part that failed nearly instantly, which is otherwise probably one of the least likely parts to fail on one of these rifles.

Well, OK.
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 12:40:20 PM EST
Ehh,, when I was in the military the Forward assist worked for me. 2 times when I was qualifying on the M4 I felt sand in the BCG when I was qualifying and used it because the bolt wouldt close all the way.. gave me an extra 2 points. works for me.
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 6:58:52 PM EST
google "confirmation bias"
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 8:30:16 PM EST
ouch!! if hes looking to rebuild it, cdnn has s&w uppers without forward assist and dust cover (with deflector) for like 40 bucks. i like the fa, but i cant say i use it often.
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 8:51:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2018 8:55:04 PM EST by centurian318]
My sp1 carbine never came with a forward assist. I compensated for it by using a springco blue spring and ST-T2 buffer. I also replaced the extractor spring with springco’s extractor upgrade kit. It also keeps me from getting brass to face because I’m left handed. I’m tempted to try a red spring and H-3 buffer.
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 8:54:27 PM EST
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Originally Posted By centurian318:
My sp1 carbine never came with a forward assist. I compensated for it by using a springco blue spring and ST-T2 buffer. It also keeps me from getting brass to face because I’m left handed. I’m tempted to try a red spring and H-3 buffer.
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You used a blue spring and a Spikes H2 buffer to what now? Snap the extractor over the rim? Press check? Drain vapor-locked water from the bore? HNNNNNNNNNGGGGG?
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:06:25 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:

You used a blue spring and a Spikes H2 buffer to what now? Snap the extractor over the rim? Press check? Drain vapor-locked water from the bore? HNNNNNNNNNGGGGG?
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Your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

Press check?!? It’s not a 1911 and your not Steven Segal.

You can take you smiley and shove it up you desk diving....
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:11:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By centurian318:
Your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

Press check?!? It’s not a 1911 and your not Steven Segal.

You can take you smiley and shove it up you desk diving....
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Originally Posted By centurian318:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:

You used a blue spring and a Spikes H2 buffer to what now? Snap the extractor over the rim? Press check? Drain vapor-locked water from the bore? HNNNNNNNNNGGGGG?
Your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

Press check?!? It’s not a 1911 and your not Steven Segal.

You can take you smiley and shove it up you desk diving....
Lol I was messing with you. No need to get your roll pin in a snap......budum boom ting!
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:17:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:

Lol I was messing with you. No need to get your roll pin in a snap......budum boom ting!
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Speaking of roll pins... I don’t know how deep in the parts bin colt reached in to get the carbine buffer for my sp1, but it didn’t have a roll pin (wasn’t even drilled for one) to secure the bumper on the end and it’s banana yellow.
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:29:16 PM EST
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Originally Posted By centurian318:
Speaking of roll pins... I don’t know how deep in the parts bin colt reached in to get the carbine buffer for my sp1, but it didn’t have a roll pin (wasn’t even drilled for one) to secure the bumper on the end and it’s banana yellow.
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Originally Posted By centurian318:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:

Lol I was messing with you. No need to get your roll pin in a snap......budum boom ting!
Speaking of roll pins... I don’t know how deep in the parts bin colt reached in to get the carbine buffer for my sp1, but it didn’t have a roll pin (wasn’t even drilled for one) to secure the bumper on the end and it’s banana yellow.
Much like LMT with the NOS run of gen 1 SOPMOD's, I wouldn't be surprised if Colt has an old storage room stuffed to the brim with them and edge water buffers. They've been pumping out govt contract M16s and parts for half a century now
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:32:45 PM EST
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Originally Posted By VLODPG:

For $38.99, I'll keep my forward assist!
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I paid that much to jam my upper I guess!



Forward Controls Design Low Drag Forward Assist
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:46:49 PM EST
That's pretty. Does it allow your rifle to reach supersonic speeds?
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:48:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
That's pretty. Does it allow your rifle to reach supersonic speeds?
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Yep. That's the Magpul V2 rocket booster. Your rifle now throws itself down the driveway at supersonic velocity
Link Posted: 9/13/2018 9:49:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
That's pretty. Does it allow your rifle to reach supersonic speeds?
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Nah, just balances things out. High speed low drag FA, low speed high drag beer belly.
Link Posted: 9/14/2018 6:53:16 AM EST
I like the FA option, not going to give it up based on a rare malfunction. It's still good to share information on issues when they occur. That's how improvements to designs can come to fruition if needed
Link Posted: 9/14/2018 6:55:19 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
There are PLENTY of reasons for not having/using a Forward Assist, this just adds to the list.
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this is also the reason why u only use .mil spec rcvr extension tubes. had u done this and not used whoevers .civ spec "upgraded" tube, you coulda got it out. good call on blamimg the rcvr extension design on a FA issue tho.

-45Bravo
-US Army Ordnance School "green mile" Instructor
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