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Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 11/8/2018 2:16:05 PM EDT
A tale of two guns - one is a Springfield Saint free-float, the other an old ASA lower with BCM 16" ELW CHF upper with BCM BCG. Both guns run fine on various surplus 5.56 M193 and 855 ammo. However I have what appears to be reloads (which I don't recall doing myself so I assume I picked them up at a show from someone like Georgia Arms years ago) that function fine in the BCM but not in the Saint.

The case rim is ripped off where the extractor grabs it and it stays in the chamber. I have swapped the BCG from the BCM - same thing.

The only thing I can think of is the chamber in the Saint barrel is tighter/rougher, although there is no sign of over pressure. I have a few more types of ammo I can try (PMP 223, IMI M193, IMI M855, LC M855, Wolf Gold) in addition to the South African (PMP) and Spanish surplus 5.56 stuff I'm currently using.

The easy answer is to not use the dodgy reloads in the Saint, but I'm puzzled as to what is going on. The cases are not jammed in super tight - the cleaning rod pushes it out without hammering on it.
Link Posted: 11/8/2018 9:21:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 11/9/2018 7:32:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for the ideas - I hadn't thought about it being over-gassed. I get how both of these could result in ripped case rims (too violent an extraction cycle), but I'm still puzzled as to why it only happens with these reloads. If the load was too hot I could understand, but there is no primer push-out, no bulging cases, etc.

I'll clean the chamber and try to get a photo of the chamber in the next day or so. I will also take the buffer out and weigh it. I was under the impression these had H buffers from the factory.

The gun is fairly new, so a gunked up chamber is unlikely.
Link Posted: 11/9/2018 1:42:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 11/10/2018 7:52:55 AM EDT
[#4]
I cleaned the chamber and visual inspection doesn't show anything but possibly very, very faint tooling marks depending on how I hold the light - nothing like the example you posted. Given the problem is ammo-specific, I am reluctant to blame the chamber since supposedly full pressure NATO stuff runs fine. I also verified there is already an H buffer in the gun.

My next test is to dig out some of the new production IMI M193 (which has the reputation for being on the hot end of 5.56 standards) and Federal LC M855 I recently purchased and try that in the Saint. My reasoning is the older surplus 5.56 stuff I have been shooting may be less than full power due to age. If the new IMI and LC ammo extracts OK, then I'm removing the chamber finish/dimensions from the list as the primary cause.

That leaves a combination of being overgassed (which I have seen a couple references to in Saint discussions) combined with powder burn rate in these specific reloads. If the new NATO Ammo runs OK, maybe I'll pick up a heavier buffer to try. Since my primary practice/plinking ammo is either the South African surplus M193 (of which I have about 5000 ads I bought many years ago) or Wolf Gold (which is just under NATO pressure), I may just let it ride unless I run across another ammo that gives me trouble in this gun.

Thanks for the charts and info on burn rate and gas pressures. While I have reloaded extensively for handguns (recoil operated) and bolt/lever action rifles, I have always shot factory/surplus ammo in my AR-15's, SA M1A, Garand & SKS's and never thought about the interaction between the gas system and the powder used.
Link Posted: 11/10/2018 2:46:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 11/10/2018 2:46:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 11/11/2018 10:59:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Went to the range this morning primarily to test out the latest rifle build (Aero receivers, BA Hanson barrel, Midwest rail, Toolcraft Nitride BCG, PA 3X Gen II prisim scope) but I took the Saint and some test ammo.

20 rounds IMI 5.56 M193 - ran fine
10 rounds Federal LC 5.56 M855 - ran fine
10 rounds PMP 223 (noticeably softer recoil) - ran fine
30 rounds 80's vintage surplus 5.56 - ran fine

I tried all of this as well as a few rounds of the problem reload in the new gun - ran perfectly.

It has to be a combination of the powder used in the reloads and the barrel gas port being oversize. The IMI M193 felt noticeably hotter than the reloads, so I am ruling out a sticky chamber. The obvious thing to try would be a H2 or H3 buffer, although since I normally do not use commercial reloads/reman (and I only have about 30-40 rounds left of this crap), I'm tempted to not spend the money on buffers to fix a problem I will likely never run into again.

I'm satisfied there is no reason to send the upper back to SA as a warranty claim, so I'll make sure to test any new ammo variety I pick up to make sure the over-gassing doesn't create an issue in the future.

Thanks for the help Dano - I can move on to worrying about something else now
Link Posted: 11/11/2018 3:51:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
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