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Posted: 2/25/2020 5:35:19 PM EDT
I've been attempting to identify dimensions to use in evaluating the condition of a BCG. So far, I have only found that the firing pin hole should be between 0.058 to 0.060 (easy enough to obtain a couple pin gages) and that the carrier keyway should be a minimum of 0.1805. I'm thinking there must be some measurements as there are for headspacing (go, no go, field) for the BCG components that can be used to evaluate wear on a BCG. Are there measurements for:

Carrier keyway, min/max
Inside of bolt carrier where bolt rings are, min/max
Inside of bolt carrier in front of area where rings are, min/max
bolt tail diameter, min/max

Thanks all.

Edit 02/27/2020: I'm not comfortable with the specs show above, hence the strike through. The Army's gauge, PN 12620101, for the firing pin hole size, looks to be 0.070. Also, I checked a brand-new bolt and the firing pin hole is larger than 0.060 (I used a 1/16" twist drill).
Link Posted: 2/25/2020 7:03:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Never heard of one wearing out.  I doubt there are measurments because it doesnt matter.

Just measure headspace and be happy.
Link Posted: 2/25/2020 7:21:13 PM EDT
[#2]
What is the round count on this carrier? If the answer is less than 50k and it functions reliably, I wouldn't worry about it. Hell, even if it's above 50k I wouldn't really worry about it... inspect it occasionally, replace the bolt components and/or bolt as needed and go about your business.

The carrier isn't really a component you're likely to wear out.
Link Posted: 2/25/2020 10:30:16 PM EDT
[#3]
I'd rather just install a new BCG than concern myself with anything like that
Link Posted: 2/25/2020 10:32:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Just shoot the god damn thing.  When a lug breaks off the bolt or it breaks at the cam pin, install a new one and repeat.  The rest of that shit doesnt wear out.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 12:26:39 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I've been attempting to identify dimensions to use in evaluating the condition of a BCG. So far, I have only found that the firing pin hole should be between 0.058 to 0.060 (easy enough to obtain a couple pin gages) and that the carrier keyway should be a minimum of 0.1805. I'm thinking there must be some measurements as there are for headspacing (go, no go, field) for the BCG components that can be used to evaluate wear on a BCG. Are there measurements for:

Carrier keyway, min/max
Inside of bolt carrier where bolt rings are, min/max
Inside of bolt carrier in front of area where rings are, min/max
bolt tail diameter, min/max

Thanks all.
View Quote
Why...
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 12:33:13 AM EDT
[#7]
Follow School of the American Rifle SOTAR on Facebook. He does BCG "physicals" and shows all the gauging.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 10:33:47 AM EDT
[#8]
You're not going to run into dimensional wear issues on a BCG, that's not a typical failure mode. You should instead be checking for cracks on the bolt lugs, at the cam pin hole and making sure that your gas rings are still sealing.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 11:09:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Watch an Inscructor Chad video on Youtube.

He does BCG videos and inspects gauges every part on the bcg.  You would have an idea of what gauges etc you would need.  I believe he might sell some of the gauges, but not sure

Forward Control Designs (SBCG) BCG Physical
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 11:27:31 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Watch an Inscructor Chad video on Youtube.

He does BCG videos and inspects gauges every part on the bcg.  You would have an idea of what gauges etc you would need.  I believe he might sell some of the gauges, but not sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kADQX_xmrSY
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View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Watch an Inscructor Chad video on Youtube.

He does BCG videos and inspects gauges every part on the bcg.  You would have an idea of what gauges etc you would need.  I believe he might sell some of the gauges, but not sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kADQX_xmrSY
Some checks are for wear some are for new manufacture which may or may not be applicable to the question
that can be used to evaluate wear on a BCG
.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 4:14:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Why...
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ARs run well . . . until they don't.

A couple of considerations are central to my quest to learn the specs to test the bolt carrier and bolt.

Having experienced malfunctions/failures myself, I would like to, one, reduce the risk of a malfunction/failure in the field and, two, use as an aid in diagnosing problems. The extra two or three minutes it would take to insert some pin gages to monitor the health of the bolt carrier and bolt after cleaning seems like a prudent action. As far as diagnosing problems, I am not a big fan of replacing parts until the problem goes away as a means of identifying the worn or out of spec component.

The YT video depicts what I am looking for but he doesn't mention the specs.

I appreciate all comments.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 4:41:10 PM EDT
[#12]
I sent an inquiry to the School of the American Rifle and Chad replied very quickly to my inquiry. I asked if he sold the gauges or if not, if he would share the specs. He replied that he did not sell the gages at this time, noting that he has too many irons in the fire. He did not comment on my inquiry regarding sharing the specs.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 4:59:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Honestly the carrier is the least of your worries and really nothing exist to measure as far as wear goes.  What is going to happen is eventually your bolt where the cam pin pushes through it will most likely fail around that hole, shear a lug or lugs, gas ring fail or no longer seal properly, break a firing pin, extractor break or become to worn to extract, ejector spring weaken, or one of the pins will fail.  Dimensions are honestly the least of my worries.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 5:25:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Sometimes people think waaaaay far into things. OP, this is one of those times.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 6:15:51 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

ARs run well . . . until they don't.
View Quote
Most of the time that's because something breaks (bolt lugs, firing pins, etc.) or wear items like springs/gas rings wear out. Headspace gauges are useful when you've got new or very worn barrels/bolts.

I'm OCD, but a lot of this gauge/test stuff seems like chasing your own tail. If you want to be thorough about inspection/parts replacement, I think following what the 23&P manual recommends would work well.
Link Posted: 2/26/2020 10:16:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
ARs run well . . . until they don't.

A couple of considerations are central to my quest to learn the specs to test the bolt carrier and bolt.

Having experienced malfunctions/failures myself, I would like to, one, reduce the risk of a malfunction/failure in the field and, two, use as an aid in diagnosing problems. The extra two or three minutes it would take to insert some pin gages to monitor the health of the bolt carrier and bolt after cleaning seems like a prudent action. As far as diagnosing problems, I am not a big fan of replacing parts until the problem goes away as a means of identifying the worn or out of spec component.

The YT video depicts what I am looking for but he doesn't mention the specs.

I appreciate all comments.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Why...
ARs run well . . . until they don't.

A couple of considerations are central to my quest to learn the specs to test the bolt carrier and bolt.

Having experienced malfunctions/failures myself, I would like to, one, reduce the risk of a malfunction/failure in the field and, two, use as an aid in diagnosing problems. The extra two or three minutes it would take to insert some pin gages to monitor the health of the bolt carrier and bolt after cleaning seems like a prudent action. As far as diagnosing problems, I am not a big fan of replacing parts until the problem goes away as a means of identifying the worn or out of spec component.

The YT video depicts what I am looking for but he doesn't mention the specs.

I appreciate all comments.
I’ve never heard of a malfunction related to an actual bolt carrier issue outside of gas key issues, and those should be relatively apparent.

You’re way, way, wayyyy overthinking this.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 12:49:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I sent an inquiry to the School of the American Rifle and Chad replied very quickly to my inquiry. I asked if he sold the gauges or if not, if he would share the specs. He replied that he did not sell the gages at this time, noting that he has too many irons in the fire. He did not comment on my inquiry regarding sharing the specs.
View Quote
He only shares the specs to students who takes his course. He only sells gauges to members of his facebook page.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 4:20:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

He only shares the specs to students who takes his course. He only sells gauges to members of his facebook page.
View Quote
I did hear somewhere he is going to start doing rifle inspections as part of his gunsmithing buis

I do agree that you are overthinking this a bit.  Run the gun and if there is an issue you will find out.  Once a gun is vetted perform regular maintenance and replace parts as needed.  Good idea to have a good list of stuff to keep on hand
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 4:31:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I did hear somewhere he is going to start doing rifle inspections as part of his gunsmithing buis

I do agree that you are overthinking this a bit.  Run the gun and if there is an issue you will find out.  Once a gun is vetted perform regular maintenance and replace parts as needed.  Good idea to have a good list of stuff to keep on hand
View Quote
I hope your talking to the OP and not to me since you quoted me.

He is loosing his mind over on this facebook page about people asking for the specs lol.

Chad Albrecht
Admin · 3 hrs
Gentlemen,

I have come to a point where I need to create a new policy. It has been stated repeatedly that I DONT publish or release dimensions for certain Gauges unless you are SOTAR Alumni. I said Gentlemen because ladies don't ask me for this stuff.

I'm getting at least one message a day that insists on asking me for Gauge Dimensions/Specifications. They usually lead the message off by saying "I know this is something you don't release", "I can't travel to a class, so", "I plan to take a class soon", "I mean no offense", or "with all due respect".

I'm going to ban and block anyone who asks me these questions from here on unless you are alumni.

I don't understand people at all.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 7:21:11 PM EDT
[#20]
He just posted this about his gauges, FYI.

SOTAR Gauges Frequently Asked Questions
SCHOOL OF THE AMERICAN RIFLE·THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2020·


Q: When can I buy gauges?
A: Gauges are sold in limited runs. An announcement will be made in the SOTAR FB group when the next gauge run opens up.
Q: Where can I buy gauges?
A: Gauges are sold through the SOTAR FB group only.
Q: Who can buy gauges?
A: Gauges are only available to be purchased by SOTAR Alumni and members of the SOTAR FB group.
Q: How can I buy gauges?
A: Gauges are sold via a Pre-Order system ONLY. This means once the announcement is made you will have a limited opportunity to pre-order and pay in full for the gauges you want.
Q: How much do gauges cost?
A: The price of individual gauges vary. If you choose to purchase a complete set of custom made gauges it will cost approximately twelve hundred dollars per caliber.
Q: How many gauges come in a complete set?
A: The number of gauges included in a complete set varies by caliber.
Q: How long will it take for me to receive my gauge order?
A: Gauge orders are not a next day or next month turn around. It can take as long as 6 months for all the components to be received and customization to be completed. Customers will be kept up to date on the status of their orders. If you are unable or unwilling to wait for your CUSTOM gauge order to be completed please do not place an order.
Q: What gauges do you offer for sale?
A: A list of all gauges available for purchase will be posted in the Sale Announcement.
Q: Do you offer other custom gauges not on the announced list?
A: If you do not see the specific gauge you are looking for in the Sale Announcement, it is not available for purchase.
Q: I saw a gauge that interests me being used in a SOTAR video, is it available to purchase?
A: If you do not see the specific gauge you are looking for in the Sale Announcement, it is not available for purchase.
Q: Can you provide the dimensions/specifications so I can make my own gauges?
A: NO
Q: Can I get SOTAR gauge dimensions/specifications from SOTAR Alumi, or SOTAR group Moderators?
A: NO
Q: If I private message you, SOTAR Alumni or SOTAR group Moderators will you you give me SOTAR gauge dimensions/specifications?
A: NO. If you choose to do this you will be removed and banned from the SOTAR FB group and loose the opportunity to attend future SOTAR classes. All future communications from you will be ignored.
Q: How can I get SOTAR gauge dimensions/specifications?
A: Attend any class offered by School of the American Rifle.
Q: Once I have attended a class and obtain SOTAR gauge dimensions/specifications can I share them in any way?
A: NO. All SOTAR Alumni operate under an NDA. The data, specifications and information received during a class is protected and meant for personal use only. You are not authorized to distribute the information in any fashion.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 7:33:53 PM EDT
[#21]
The SOTAR stuff was really neat at first.  It quickly became annoying as fuck.  It takes pretentious to a whole new level.

If you're worried about a gun wearing out, throw in a field gauge.  If it passes, shoot the fuck out of it.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 8:46:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
I've been attempting to identify dimensions to use in evaluating the condition of a BCG. So far, I have only found that the firing pin hole should be between 0.058 to 0.060 (easy enough to obtain a couple pin gages) and that the carrier keyway should be a minimum of 0.1805. I'm thinking there must be some measurements as there are for headspacing (go, no go, field) for the BCG components that can be used to evaluate wear on a BCG. Are there measurements for:

Carrier keyway, min/max
Inside of bolt carrier where bolt rings are, min/max
Inside of bolt carrier in front of area where rings are, min/max
bolt tail diameter, min/max

Thanks all.
View Quote

Read TM 9-1009-319-23 & P.

That covers all the maintenance requirements you need to worry about.  It also lists the required gages.

Shoot more, worry less about gaging.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 9:40:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Well, this thread has not gone the way I thought it would.  

The TM is a good read - I had a print copy but it got lost in one of the moves.

By the way, Grainger has Vermont pin gages from 0.058 at $3.37 to 0.500 at approximately $16.96. It would not cost much to put together a collection, including some handles.

If anyone has some specs to share, perhaps send me a pm. Otherwise, I think I'll move on at this point.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 9:48:04 PM EDT
[#24]
There are so many factors coming into play when you talk about "wear and tear" that it's really impossible to say. There's a Vegas thread about high round counts but random people (who usually know nothing about firearms) shoot it by dumping entire magazines in short intervals. I don't think you can compare your rifle to such a rifle.

In my opinion you will shoot out a barrel before you shoot out a bolt or carrier. I know this because I actually shot out one barrel using Tulammo at about 8-9k count. It was my first upper build using a AR-Stoner barrel that I got cheap. I learned from that and now only shoot brass out of my rifles and haven't seen the wearing that I saw with Tulammo especially the chipping on the bolt face.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 11:28:28 PM EDT
[#25]
deleted.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 8:58:36 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The SOTAR stuff was really neat at first.  It quickly became annoying as fuck.  It takes pretentious to a whole new level.

If you're worried about a gun wearing out, throw in a field gauge.  If it passes, shoot the fuck out of it.
View Quote
Because education is stupid, right?
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 9:05:37 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The SOTAR stuff was really neat at first.  It quickly became annoying as fuck.  It takes pretentious to a whole new level.

If you're worried about a gun wearing out, throw in a field gauge.  If it passes, shoot the fuck out of it.
View Quote
No one forces you to follow my work.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 9:09:00 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I hope your talking to the OP and not to me since you quoted me.

He is loosing his mind over on this facebook page about people asking for the specs lol.

Chad Albrecht
Admin · 3 hrs
Gentlemen,

I have come to a point where I need to create a new policy. It has been stated repeatedly that I DONT publish or release dimensions for certain Gauges unless you are SOTAR Alumni. I said Gentlemen because ladies don't ask me for this stuff.

I'm getting at least one message a day that insists on asking me for Gauge Dimensions/Specifications. They usually lead the message off by saying "I know this is something you don't release", "I can't travel to a class, so", "I plan to take a class soon", "I mean no offense", or "with all due respect".

I'm going to ban and block anyone who asks me these questions from here on unless you are alumni.

I don't understand people at all.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

I did hear somewhere he is going to start doing rifle inspections as part of his gunsmithing buis

I do agree that you are overthinking this a bit.  Run the gun and if there is an issue you will find out.  Once a gun is vetted perform regular maintenance and replace parts as needed.  Good idea to have a good list of stuff to keep on hand
I hope your talking to the OP and not to me since you quoted me.

He is loosing his mind over on this facebook page about people asking for the specs lol.

Chad Albrecht
Admin · 3 hrs
Gentlemen,

I have come to a point where I need to create a new policy. It has been stated repeatedly that I DONT publish or release dimensions for certain Gauges unless you are SOTAR Alumni. I said Gentlemen because ladies don't ask me for this stuff.

I'm getting at least one message a day that insists on asking me for Gauge Dimensions/Specifications. They usually lead the message off by saying "I know this is something you don't release", "I can't travel to a class, so", "I plan to take a class soon", "I mean no offense", or "with all due respect".

I'm going to ban and block anyone who asks me these questions from here on unless you are alumni.

I don't understand people at all.
I'm not losing my mind. Making a public post reduces the necessity to repeat myself.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 9:16:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Sometimes people think waaaaay far into things. OP, this is one of those times.
View Quote
This right here..

Do you know just how much more proficient you would be if you exerted that same energy on dry fire and shooting...…??

And no one.....no one...wears out the carrier.... the bolt or barrel go long before that...
And the amount of money and time in ammo to reach that level....

Good luck with your OCD...
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 9:25:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This right here..

Do you know just how much more proficient you would be if you exerted that same energy on dry fire and shooting...…??

And no one.....no one...wears out the carrier.... the bolt or barrel go long before that...
And the amount of money and time in ammo to reach that level....

Good luck with your OCD...
View Quote
Assuming the OP doesn't invest that much energy and time into dry fire and shooting, there is nothing wrong with ensuring you have a good BCG. If you don't want to assemble a rifle correctly, just buy something from a reputable manufacturer and invest more time in dry fire and shooting. It's really that simple.

Good luck with your obsessive need to tell people you don't like what they like.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 9:33:47 AM EDT
[#31]
Op, this place is mental cancer. If you really want to learn this stuff and understand why it matters you’re not going to find it here, which it is obvious from the resounding chorus of ignorance you have received in reply.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 10:04:23 AM EDT
[#32]
Gas rings wear is judged over time. Remove  the carrier , hold vertical extending the the bolt and release.

If it drops it is getting wear and you may have found a reason for a problem,  if one were to exist.

Fired cases may show firing pin issues, headspace measurements.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 11:54:12 AM EDT
[#33]
Chad is a friend and a great guy, we take his advice and incorporate it into better production methods to make our products better, and we are grateful for it.  We don't know everything, when we can learn something from an experienced gunsmith that has no bias or brand loyalty, it's not something we pass up.

Some well known and respected names you are familiar with also think highly enough of him to fly their crew to attend his courses.

You might not be familiar with his clinical approach, it is not "if it runs, it's fine."  Gauges and numbers don't lie.  So happens the AR is very tolerant of badly made or worn parts, but that doesn't change that when a part is out of spec, it has down stream consequences.

I think some may mistake the purpose of the BCG physicals.  Do you want a poorly made BCG that fails gauges but still runs, but barely, most likely unbeknownst to you, or one that passes all the gauges with flying colors that is as efficient as it's meant to be?

Chad did a physical on our SBCG, and it passed all the gauging.  To me, it reaffirms to our customers and friends that we don't do things in the least expensive way possible, only in the best way possible.  Chad did this not for us, but for his students that requested it.   If good enough is sufficient for some folks, by all means, ignorance is bliss.   For us, good enough never is.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 12:34:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

No one forces you to follow my work.
View Quote
0012-8 for extractor spring installation without a dremel. It works.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 12:36:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 12:46:03 PM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 2:26:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:

Assuming the OP doesn't invest that much energy and time into dry fire and shooting, there is nothing wrong with ensuring you have a good BCG. If you don't want to assemble a rifle correctly, just buy something from a reputable manufacturer and invest more time in dry fire and shooting. It's really that simple.

Good luck with your obsessive need to tell people you don't like what they like.
View Quote
If you want to enable OCD in others, that's your business.. this is a discussion forum... we discuss thing... and he asked opinions... He got one..
If  a Poster asks about cleaning his barrel between each and every round, what do you think?... I'm going to tell him.

He's free to still do what he wants... Just like you're free to White knight for him....
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 2:48:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

If you want to enable OCD in others, that's your business.. this is a discussion forum... we discuss thing... and he asked opinions... He got one..
If  a Poster asks about cleaning his barrel between each and every round, what do you think?... I'm going to tell him.

He's free to still do what he wants... Just like you're free to White knight for him....
View Quote
Here's an opinion... Don't let your ignorance prevent others from obtaining knowledge.

What you have here is someone asking for measurements to check something. Those measurements exist for a reason. I don't care why he wants to check them, it's his business. You came in hear mouth breathing that he doesn't need the measurements. You sound like the wackjob leftists telling people they don't need things. What we don't need is people like you making stupid comments.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 3:51:51 PM EDT
[#39]
I buy only quality stuff from well known manufacturers. If I still have to run gauges to ensure they'll work, what's the point?
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 3:52:54 PM EDT
[#40]
While I don't think checking the inner dimensions of the carrier at frequent intervals is necessary I do believe it is important to have a bolt carrier group that is gas efficient, especially if your barrel has a smaller gas port. Sometimes when you assemble a rifle from a bunch of different companies' parts you can have issues that are tough to diagnose, and that's when gauges are especially useful. It's also a good idea for parts to be closely inspected and gauged prior to assembly. If you don't care to delve this deep into the workings of your rifle that's fine, but don't trash talk others for taking an interest in the more technical aspects of how their rifle works.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 3:59:00 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I buy only quality stuff from well known manufacturers. If I still have to run gauges to ensure they'll work, what's the point?
View Quote
You don't have to do anything. No one in this entire thread is telling you that you MUST gauge anything.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 4:29:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Here's an opinion... Don't let your ignorance prevent others from obtaining knowledge.

What you have here is someone asking for measurements to check something. Those measurements exist for a reason. I don't care why he wants to check them, it's his business. You came in hear mouth breathing that he doesn't need the measurements. You sound like the wackjob leftists telling people they don't need things. What we don't need is people like you making stupid comments.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

If you want to enable OCD in others, that's your business.. this is a discussion forum... we discuss thing... and he asked opinions... He got one..
If  a Poster asks about cleaning his barrel between each and every round, what do you think?... I'm going to tell him.

He's free to still do what he wants... Just like you're free to White knight for him....
Here's an opinion... Don't let your ignorance prevent others from obtaining knowledge.

What you have here is someone asking for measurements to check something. Those measurements exist for a reason. I don't care why he wants to check them, it's his business. You came in hear mouth breathing that he doesn't need the measurements. You sound like the wackjob leftists telling people they don't need things. What we don't need is people like you making stupid comments.
And what are these measurements, exactly? No one seems to be able to provide them outside of "attend this class." How is it they are proprietary to one single gunsmith and his class; if they exist for a reason and are of such importance, why is it that pretty much no one else is advocating or teaching it? And who decided on what the "correct" measurements are in the first place? If they're from the TDP of the M16/M4, why is the aforementioned single gunsmith acting like they are secret knowledge that only he possesses?

After all, you do realize these are checks that even the armorers at high-speed SOF units don't bother to do, right? This is literally something one gunsmith dreamed up, apparently as a way to leverage attendance to his classes and to sell ridiculously overpriced "custom" gauges for $1200 a pop (does that include the custom, precision weed eater line gauge, I wonder?). And we're just taking his word for what is "acceptable" and what isn't, because it's all his proprietary measurements that seemingly can't be found anywhere outside of his class. The fact he's demanding everyone attending his class sign an NDA makes it fairly evident these are his own measurements.

That being the case, I have to wonder how much of what is being taught in this class is real, verifiable information and how much of it is just one person's interpretation of what's correct. Anyone can say, "I have the secret measurements no one else knows, now pay me for that knowledge" - unless you can verify that information elsewhere, who is to say if it's even correct or not. Why is it such a secret... and how much will it cost someone to find out this closely held information? After they (potentially) fly themselves across the country, pay for a hotel, pay for a class, pay for some gauges... how much is it going to cost them to find out their BCG is fine?

Some of you are acting like this is widely available and easily accessed information that people just refuse to avail themselves of. When in reality, it's a single person/class teaching it...  using methods that, as pointed out, even organizations that use their weapons in life or death situations daily don't utilize.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 4:40:55 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:

And what are these measurements, exactly? No one seems to be able to provide them outside of "attend this class." How is it they are proprietary to one single gunsmith and his class; if they exist for a reason and are of such importance, why is it that pretty much no one else is advocating or teaching it? And who decided on what the "correct" measurements are in the first place? If they're from the TDP of the M16/M4, why is the aforementioned single gunsmith acting like they are secret knowledge that only he possesses?

After all, you do realize these are checks that even the armorers at high-speed SOF units don't bother to do, right? This is literally something one gunsmith dreamed up, apparently as a way to leverage attendance to his classes and to sell ridiculously overpriced "custom" gauges for $1200 a pop (does that include the custom, precision weed eater line gauge, I wonder?). And we're just taking his word for what is "acceptable" and what isn't, because it's all his proprietary measurements that seemingly can't be found anywhere outside of his class. The fact he's demanding everyone attending his class sign an NDA makes it fairly evident these are his own measurements.

That being the case, I have to wonder how much of what is being taught in this class is real, verifiable information and how much of it is just one person's interpretation of what's correct. Anyone can say, "I have the secret measurements no one else knows, now pay me for that knowledge" - unless you can verify that information elsewhere, who is to say if it's even correct or not. Why is it such a secret... and how much will it cost someone to find out this closely held information? After they (potentially) fly themselves across the country, pay for a hotel, pay for a class, pay for some gauges... how much is it going to cost them to find out their BCG is fine?

Some of you are acting like this is widely available and easily accessed information that people just refuse to avail themselves of. When in reality, it's a single person/class teaching it...  using methods that, as pointed out, even organizations that use their weapons in life or death situations daily don't utilize.
View Quote
1. I've never taken his class.
2. I've never met Chad in person.
3. I've never claimed these measurements are readily available.
4. I've never claimed anyone MUST measure anything.

Now tell me where the bad man hurt your feelings.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 4:59:21 PM EDT
[#44]
OP a set of old prints with a lot of the info can be found online for the new manufacture of some of the components you are interested in. But that is for them when they are new. The TM list some of the tools for checking wear at the point of rejection but that does not mean that it will necessarily quit working at that point just that it is time to replace it by their standards. If there is a list of some super every thing that is worn out close to failure I have never been able to find it online.

The latest TM can be found online if you search hard for it. It has a lot of info including for the Gov.  the correct method to test gas rings wear and not the internet test method which has no real basis I have seen posted.

Colt Canada has a repair manual online with good info. It also tells you where a gasket sealer is actually needed under a carrier key and how to apply it. All the other threads and videos about the bestist goop is in my opinion is just some ones opinion.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 5:32:11 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
1. I've never taken his class.
2. I've never met Chad in person.
3. I've never claimed these measurements are readily available.
4. I've never claimed anyone MUST measure anything.

Now tell me where the bad man hurt your feelings.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

And what are these measurements, exactly? No one seems to be able to provide them outside of "attend this class." How is it they are proprietary to one single gunsmith and his class; if they exist for a reason and are of such importance, why is it that pretty much no one else is advocating or teaching it? And who decided on what the "correct" measurements are in the first place? If they're from the TDP of the M16/M4, why is the aforementioned single gunsmith acting like they are secret knowledge that only he possesses?

After all, you do realize these are checks that even the armorers at high-speed SOF units don't bother to do, right? This is literally something one gunsmith dreamed up, apparently as a way to leverage attendance to his classes and to sell ridiculously overpriced "custom" gauges for $1200 a pop (does that include the custom, precision weed eater line gauge, I wonder?). And we're just taking his word for what is "acceptable" and what isn't, because it's all his proprietary measurements that seemingly can't be found anywhere outside of his class. The fact he's demanding everyone attending his class sign an NDA makes it fairly evident these are his own measurements.

That being the case, I have to wonder how much of what is being taught in this class is real, verifiable information and how much of it is just one person's interpretation of what's correct. Anyone can say, "I have the secret measurements no one else knows, now pay me for that knowledge" - unless you can verify that information elsewhere, who is to say if it's even correct or not. Why is it such a secret... and how much will it cost someone to find out this closely held information? After they (potentially) fly themselves across the country, pay for a hotel, pay for a class, pay for some gauges... how much is it going to cost them to find out their BCG is fine?

Some of you are acting like this is widely available and easily accessed information that people just refuse to avail themselves of. When in reality, it's a single person/class teaching it...  using methods that, as pointed out, even organizations that use their weapons in life or death situations daily don't utilize.
1. I've never taken his class.
2. I've never met Chad in person.
3. I've never claimed these measurements are readily available.
4. I've never claimed anyone MUST measure anything.

Now tell me where the bad man hurt your feelings.
For a guy who has never taken his class or met him in person, you sure road into this thread seeming awfully intent on defending him and the importance of his "measurements."

You're the one who stated that these "measurements exist for a reason" and I think it's reasonable to question what specific measurements you mean - where did the specs for these "proprietary measurements" come from and what are they actually based on.

Strikes me as a bit odd a fella as disinterested as yourself would be getting so apparently upset and defensive about it.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 6:36:46 PM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:

For a guy who has never taken his class or met him in person, you sure road into this thread seeming awfully intent on defending him and the importance of his "measurements."

You're the one who stated that these "measurements exist for a reason" and I think it's reasonable to question what specific measurements you mean - where did the specs for these "proprietary measurements" come from and what are they actually based on.

Strikes me as a bit odd a fella as disinterested as yourself would be getting so apparently upset and defensive about it.
View Quote
What’s odd is a bunch of grown men getting pissy that someone wants to know more than he already does.

You could ask Eugene Stoner, then follow up with various manufacturers, but I don’t think that’s possible.

I’m not the least bit upset. It doesn’t bother me when ignorant people say stupid things.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 7:02:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Although the carriers dimensions need to be somewhat precise to function correctly, you need to keep some things in mind. The design is pretty ingenious in that even if measurements aren't an exact fit the BCG was still designed to function correctly.
The gas key/ gas tube fitment is a friction fit. As the gas tube doughnut slides into the key the doughnut compresses tighter. This allows some play in the measurements while still forming an air tight seal.
The gas rings are also a friction fit design. The rings both float around the bolt and also flex to fit the carriers gas chamber walls. 3 separate rings floating individually of each other make the fitment even more forgiving. Even if the bolt moves around at its axis, the gas rings continue to make a proper seal.
The fitment of the bolt tail into the carrier is a place where gas can be lost but this area collects carbon fairly quickly and forms a natural seal between the parts.
The bolts support ring (the area in front of the gas chamber) allows quite a bit of play before the bolt lugs and extension lugs will bind up. Even if the bolt has some play, the lugs still travel into the extension.
The point to all this is that the AR BCG was designed in a way to allow some variance in measurements without effecting its function. The parts that are intended to form an air tight seal are all friction fit.
I'm not saying that measurements aren't important, I'm just saying the design allows for some play between parts.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 8:28:37 PM EDT
[#48]
So, this guy snuck a peak at the technical data package, copied down info, which he's not supposed to have, and passes off this info along with gauges to verify it, to students and private group members that have to sign paperwork legally making them accomplices or can be made to be accomplices to this stolen knowledge, and he does it in limited batches to limit his exposure along with charging a ton of money to further insure people are beholden to keeping their mouths shut?
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 8:59:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
And what are these measurements, exactly? No one seems to be able to provide them outside of "attend this class." How is it they are proprietary to one single gunsmith and his class; if they exist for a reason and are of such importance, why is it that pretty much no one else is advocating or teaching it? And who decided on what the "correct" measurements are in the first place? If they're from the TDP of the M16/M4, why is the aforementioned single gunsmith acting like they are secret knowledge that only he possesses?

After all, you do realize these are checks that even the armorers at high-speed SOF units don't bother to do, right? This is literally something one gunsmith dreamed up, apparently as a way to leverage attendance to his classes and to sell ridiculously overpriced "custom" gauges for $1200 a pop (does that include the custom, precision weed eater line gauge, I wonder?). And we're just taking his word for what is "acceptable" and what isn't, because it's all his proprietary measurements that seemingly can't be found anywhere outside of his class. The fact he's demanding everyone attending his class sign an NDA makes it fairly evident these are his own measurements.

That being the case, I have to wonder how much of what is being taught in this class is real, verifiable information and how much of it is just one person's interpretation of what's correct. Anyone can say, "I have the secret measurements no one else knows, now pay me for that knowledge" - unless you can verify that information elsewhere, who is to say if it's even correct or not. Why is it such a secret... and how much will it cost someone to find out this closely held information? After they (potentially) fly themselves across the country, pay for a hotel, pay for a class, pay for some gauges... how much is it going to cost them to find out their BCG is fine?

Some of you are acting like this is widely available and easily accessed information that people just refuse to avail themselves of. When in reality, it's a single person/class teaching it...  using methods that, as pointed out, even organizations that use their weapons in life or death situations daily don't utilize.
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Quoted:

If you want to enable OCD in others, that's your business.. this is a discussion forum... we discuss thing... and he asked opinions... He got one..
If  a Poster asks about cleaning his barrel between each and every round, what do you think?... I'm going to tell him.

He's free to still do what he wants... Just like you're free to White knight for him....
Here's an opinion... Don't let your ignorance prevent others from obtaining knowledge.

What you have here is someone asking for measurements to check something. Those measurements exist for a reason. I don't care why he wants to check them, it's his business. You came in hear mouth breathing that he doesn't need the measurements. You sound like the wackjob leftists telling people they don't need things. What we don't need is people like you making stupid comments.
And what are these measurements, exactly? No one seems to be able to provide them outside of "attend this class." How is it they are proprietary to one single gunsmith and his class; if they exist for a reason and are of such importance, why is it that pretty much no one else is advocating or teaching it? And who decided on what the "correct" measurements are in the first place? If they're from the TDP of the M16/M4, why is the aforementioned single gunsmith acting like they are secret knowledge that only he possesses?

After all, you do realize these are checks that even the armorers at high-speed SOF units don't bother to do, right? This is literally something one gunsmith dreamed up, apparently as a way to leverage attendance to his classes and to sell ridiculously overpriced "custom" gauges for $1200 a pop (does that include the custom, precision weed eater line gauge, I wonder?). And we're just taking his word for what is "acceptable" and what isn't, because it's all his proprietary measurements that seemingly can't be found anywhere outside of his class. The fact he's demanding everyone attending his class sign an NDA makes it fairly evident these are his own measurements.

That being the case, I have to wonder how much of what is being taught in this class is real, verifiable information and how much of it is just one person's interpretation of what's correct. Anyone can say, "I have the secret measurements no one else knows, now pay me for that knowledge" - unless you can verify that information elsewhere, who is to say if it's even correct or not. Why is it such a secret... and how much will it cost someone to find out this closely held information? After they (potentially) fly themselves across the country, pay for a hotel, pay for a class, pay for some gauges... how much is it going to cost them to find out their BCG is fine?

Some of you are acting like this is widely available and easily accessed information that people just refuse to avail themselves of. When in reality, it's a single person/class teaching it...  using methods that, as pointed out, even organizations that use their weapons in life or death situations daily don't utilize.
You echoed every thought I have about SOTAR.

Bravo
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 9:03:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So, this guy snuck a peak at the technical data package, copied down info, which he's not supposed to have, and passes off this info along with gauges to verify it, to students and private group members that have to sign paperwork legally making them accomplices or can be made to be accomplices to this stolen knowledge, and he does it in limited batches to limit his exposure along with charging a ton of money to further insure people are beholden to keeping their mouths shut?
View Quote
All for something that, to my knowledge (in personal experience, both professional and personal, as well as years on multiple technical forums), has never been identified as being an actual problem with quality parts.  Something that is also not checked by any military services armorers either.

Yeah, Arf members are the stupid ignorant ones.  Now buy these stupidly expensive gauges that’ll provide almost nothing of material benefit for you.  
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