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Posted: 3/25/2021 5:01:37 PM EDT
Hello, ruffly 4 years ago I put together a fairly decent AR15 intended purely for occasional nostalgic shooting on paper & steel.
Components of my AR15: (edit, seems my memory was wrong on two things) Centurion Arms - MK12 barrel / matched bolt / C4 carrier-BCG / low profile gas-block / gas tube Allen Engineering - Brake / Collar / AEM5 Seekins lower/upper/rail Geissele STT Radian Talon selector YHM EZ-Pull takedown pin set BCM Gunfighter Voltor 5.56 Ambi charging handle Magpul - MIAD grip / PRS gen 3 stock / MBUS Pro sights Rifle Buffer tube / Spring / Buffer(weights at 5.2oz) Atlas bipod clone *made usable with wave & ribbed washers Burris XTR Rings Steiner T5XI 3-15x50 SCR Recently I received the stamp for my AEM5 and took it for a test run. Had a blast wasting 40 rounds of Federal FC262 77gr OTMand was incredibly pleased with how it sounded and performed. I shot 2 rounds without the suppressor to confirm zero was still correct, waited a bit then attached the AEM5 and shot the remaining 18 rounds. Then handed it off to my wife to shoot another 20 rounds. Had no malfunctions, bolt locked to the rear properly on last round, all shots grouped tightly, everything seemed great. It wasn't until I picked up my brass that I realised there was a problem. Of the collected rounds, 2 casings were just fine, likely those were the 2 shots I fired without the AEM5 attached. The remaining 38 casings all have the deforming imprint, and 3 of those also had their primers popped out. I find it odd since it seems to be the wrong shape to be the extractor ripping the casing back, and it's the wrong direction of deformity that collision with the bolt would be. I'm guessing something on the lines of a adjustable gas block might resolve this, but isn't the AEM5 with the mk12 just supposed to work since they're designed for each other. This has me pondering if I should swap out the stock and buffer to carbine style and try something like a H5 buffer? |
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[#3]
Aside from that one popped primer, brass looks about right, unless I’m missing something.
Edit: sorry noticed the ejector stamping in the case head. Look like high chamber pressure... does it do this with other loads or without the can? |
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[#4]
I have had some suppressed 308 gas guns that simply did not "like" Federals soft brass and they looked pretty much like that. I wound up getting primers in my trigger area jamming up the works.
If you have room, time and money I'd try an adjustable gas block or bolt carrier to take it down just a notch, but that looks like soft brass. This is said without my knowing what the "optimized" chamber looks like on that barrel but if it doesn't show signs when un- suppressed it would be hard to say it plays any part in the problem. |
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[#5]
Suppressor adds back pressure to the bore/the gas port, which in turns opens the bolt faster.
Next lets talk Mk262/Federal FC262 77gr OTMand type ammo, that uses a slower burning power for the heaver bullets, which pushes the peak burn dwell spike of the burn closer to the gas port as well, and so even more gas pressure down the gas port, to unlock the bolt even faster. So since we can pretty much tell that the bolt is unlocking too soon and need to slow down the unlock, couple of ways to attack the problem. First is heaver buffer, but until you know what weight you really need, could get spendy with playing the trial and error game working through them. Stronger extra tension recoil spring may work, but again, playing the bind game until you find the ideal increased spring tension to slow the bolt unlock back down to normal and since the springs do tend to weaken at the 4K mark, trying to get the same extra tension spring again, could end up with trial and error each service life spring change. The pro's with either spring or buffer, is if you pull the can and say want to run standard 55gr ammo in the rig with its powder normal burn rate, quick swap of either spring or buffer back to normal units, and Bob's our uncle. As for the other way around to reduce gas pressure to the B/C to slow the bolt unlock back down to normal, would be either adjustable gas block or adjustable carrier key. Of the two, prefer lever type adjustable gas blocks that just have the three settings of normal, adverse, and off. The trick here, is to either get the lever without any ports on it so you can drill your own sizes, or to just weld up the ports and start fresh. Hence we turn the adverse to normal port size, so the rig can run 55 gr without can on that setting. Next work up on the normal sizes to run the with just the heaver ammo. the last off setting, we size that port so the rifle can run with both the can and heaver bullet ammo. Simply, since the lever just has the three setting that you have adjusted for your different needs, can switch it as needed dark thirty by feel alone with it simple repeats. Short of that, then you are back to adjustment screw type gas blocks or carrier keys, where you are playing the guessing game of how many clicks/percentage turns of the screw that you need for the different settings instead. |
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[#6]
Quoted: Aside from that one popped primer, brass looks about right, unless I’m missing something. Edit: sorry noticed the ejector stamping in the case head. Look like high chamber pressure... does it do this with other loads or without the can? View Quote Np, I tried my best to photo it, those half circle imprints are essentially ripped rearwards by about 1mm. Id assume it's a strike imprint from the bolt but its imprinted the wrong direction, but that half circle is also the wrong shape to be the extractor isn't it? I'm out of my depth, I've never seen brass get deformed like this before. I don't know if it would do it with other loads with the AEM5 on. I don't have other ammunition on hand currently, though it has never done this before in all the times I've shot it without the suppressor in the past. The main two types of rounds I've shot threw this has been the FC262 77gr OTM and Blackhills 77gr TMK. Somewhere around 1500 rounds of each type have gone threw this rifle. Never encountered issues with either, but the suppressor is the new variable to this show. The only ammo I ever had issues with on this rifle with was that new SigS. 77gr .223 OTM stuff, I was bummed out that stuff didn't work out as it would have been pretty easy to stock pile. Since I don't really know what to do to resolve it, I just made an Brownells order with 1 day shipping (hopefully will arrive tomorrow so I can test again this weekend). I ordered a David Tubb flatwire buffer spring (saw it recommended somewhere in the mk12 threads), new Colt extractor spring and buffer, and the Clymer Headspace GO/NOGO in 5.56x45 NATO. I supposed the go/nogo is more for my peace of mind as it hasn't been checked since the rifle was assembled. |
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[#7]
@Dano523:, thank you for that insight.
Do you know who makes a heavier rifle length buffer? The heaviest one I can see on Brownells is 5.6oz, I suppose 0.4oz could be significant. I might just be remembering incorrectly but I'm pretty confident these rifle AR15 buffers are significantly smaller and lighter than any m16 buffer I had handled while active duty. I do like that notion of the 3 position gas block, happen to have any suggestions that I could look into? If I'm remembering correctly from back when I put this AR together, there wasn't a lot of manufactures for the adjustable gas blocks, fewer in low profile, and none that I could find to fit and be accessible with the handrail. I think the next best thing at the time was some sort of adjustable bolt carrier, where there was a side switch of sorts (key as you mentioned). I think I'll attempt again at reaching out to Centurion Arms and see if they can provide some guidance too. I am using their mk12 Barrel / bolt / bolt carrier / gas block. I'd assume their mk12 clones should be off the shelf ready for the AEM5 with 77GR ammunition. It's a shame ammo is near impossible to source currently, does actively dwarf my ability to test other ammunition for the time being. |
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[#8]
A1/A2 buffers (one and the same) are 5.15oz, for either semi or full auto.
As for heaver rifle length buffer, there are few different ones, https://heavybuffers.com/ar15rxh.html The downside to going to a heaver buffer, is you are increasing the reciprocation weight, so more felt recoil. Note, Short of say a DCM rig, where you have so much more barrel and forearm tube weight, then butt stock weight to balance the rig back out, that the extra buffer weight is not going to make a difference. Hence this is the reason that I like to solve the increase gas to the B/C unlocking the bolt too soon from can and/or heaver ammo, with adjustable gas block to lessen the pulse that way instead. This keeps the reciprocating mass the same with the standard rifle length 5.15 buffer weight in play so your not increasing felt recoil. |
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[#9]
The half circle imprint is the ejector. Extractor is on opposite side... looks like a chord on the case head, with corresponding damage on rim.
I would expect the case rim damage from increased gas system pressure at the bolt carrier... that’s to be expected shooting with a suppressor as well as the dirty cases. The imprinting on the case head and popped primers are pressure signs. Gas pressure drops significantly by the time the bullet passes the gas port, which why I don’t believe the suppressor is the culprit. |
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[#10]
You want Clint's 11-ounce XH Heavy Buffer.
It will simplify your life firing both Ball and 77s, standard or suppressed. The extra mass of the buffer will slow down the carrier group's unlocking, extracting, and ejecting, and the extra mass is slower to accelerate to the rear so will feel smoother. You'll also perceive less kick and muzzle rise off target. The Tubb spring is a natural complement to the XH and will smooth out both the recoil and feed cycle. You're seeing the effects of violent unlocking and extraction with a buffer that's getting pushed back quicker with the longer pressure curve when suppressed with the AEM5. No pitchers of ur gun? |
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[#12]
With your current buffer you'll want to keep the black insert and O-ring.
The faster-earlier unlocking (suppressed) is a lot like a suppressed carbine -- as the carrier MOVES OUT the extractor wants to slip off as the centrifugal force of the twisting bolt lifts your claw over the rim. It's just a few degrees but substantial. I've never had problems with the Tubb springs. |
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[#13]
Ah that makes a good bit of sense, so the o-ring is mostly just to keep the sucker flat. I can live with that reasoning, thanks again for that insight.
I went ahead and ordered the 11oz XH Rifle Buffer, I suspect it'll arrive sometime next week. The tubbs spring is in my order with Brownells from earlier today also. Seems I should be ready try it out the fallowing weekend. |
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[#16]
Since the FC262 does come with stacked primers to resist the blow primer problem over all, the problems with the primers is often if the rig is set up for 223 or 5.56 nato isntead. Hence gas system/unlock set for 55Kpsi, or 62Kpsi working pressures isntead.
Also, keep in mind that some Mil nato rigs that will be suppressed full time, their barrels do have smaller gas ports to begin with. Hence about a decade back, such Colt smaller gas port barrels did find their way into the civilian market, ending up having to have their gas ports sizes increased to allow them to run with 223 ammo not suppressed. |
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[#17]
@bfoosh06 , Yup that's the stuff. Of that stuff specifically, I've shot somewhere around 1000-1500 rounds of it threw this barrel. All without the suppressor though, till those 38 rounds. Only complaint I have with the ammo is about 1 out of 100 rounds has had a minor dent on the case neck tapper. I've been putting those aside, have shot a few of them without any issues, but a bit of a pucker factor anyway.
The 2x20 boxes I pulled out of the case wasn't a freshly opened case of 500. I had shot 6 other boxes out of that case without this occurrence. And for the other cases of this ammo I own, I've already shot a full box of 20 out of each box of 500. If there is an issue with the ammo, I'd be really really surprised. The only change to the variables is the AEM5, and it seems very likely once the buffer and spring are sorted this issue will be behind me. I'd really prefer to be sitting on 4000 rounds of blackhills 77 tmk, but the stuff has been impossible for me to source after cabelas stopped selling it. Can't even find a local shop that's willing to put down a prepaid order for me. Heck, even called up blackhills the last time I was in Rapid City and they just won't take orders from a individual. I imagine their back order is ridiculous at the moment. I prolly won't see more of the stuff for a year or so. I have been keeping all my casings, but I really don't want to fuss with reloading. If we are still in a shortage of supply once I run out of the FC262, I might be forced to reload. |
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[#18]
@Dano523 , I've never had this ammo blow a primer till I used the AEM5 thankfully it was only a few and I didn't carry on shooting oblivious to it. I am still waiting on the AR15R-XH Buffer to arrive before I go try it out. Thanks again for providing the direct link to them, really eager to test it.
Interesting about the smaller vs larger gas ports at the barrel itself, I wasn't aware of that difference. Since I bought my BCG/barrel/gas system directly from centurion arms in mk12 fashion across the board. I wonder if that difference might be why I didn't have much luck with the one box of .223 sig 77gr OTM I tried about 2 years ago. |
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[#19]
Most barrels are gas ported standard size, and with standard ammo, like M193 and M855, can get away with running a suppressor with it on a rifle barrel/full length butt stock/buffer.
Same goes for running 262 for the most part without suppressor on a full length A2 rifle. If a standard rifle is having problems, then it was gas ported larger for 223, and not 5.56 Nato isntead. Note here, military cross wall chamber are on the slightly larger size, while civilian barrels tend to be reamed on the tighter cross wall side instead. Due to this, the tighter cross wall chamber may be more accurate, but since it will allow for less blow-by at firing forming, it will push the working pressure of the ammo higher. So its when you are suppressed, and running the 262 as well, that the two combines on the A2 set up for 223 ammo (not nato), and the bolt is way unlocking too soon isntead. Heaver buffer should solve the compo for the two, but since it is going to induce a bit more felt recoils from the extra mass of the buffer moving, prefer to solve the problem running a standard weight buffer and reducing the amount of gas to the B/C instead. Myself, if the rig is going to run the suppressor full time and only going to be Feed it 262 ammo, would just Tig weld the gas port on the barrel closed, and re-drill the port smaller size as needed instead. |
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[#20]
Got the buffer and spring on hand back on Saturday the 3rd and took it out to shoot on the 4th. My befuddlement (and forgetting to take pictures) is why I am late on typing this. Centurion's fallow up reminded me I had forgotten to fallow up here. Oh, and centurions input on this was they typically run H2 buffer and standard spring.
With the tubbs spring and heavy buffer, recoil significantly increased the brass stopped deforming as long as I was waiting a few moments between each shot. Though what struck me as odd is the ejection location was inconsistently around ~4:30-5 o'clock. Not alarming, but enough to decide to try swapping the buffers and leaving the tubs spring in. With the tubs spring in and old buffer back in. The brass ejection returned back to ~3:30-4 o'clock. Brass did not deform on the first shot fired and fallowing shots as long as there was a significant delay between firing(~15 seconds or so). But with consecutive shots, not rapid fire, but reasonable rate of control, the fallowing brass does end up with significant imprinting. Didn't bother with trying the heavy buffer and origonal spring that time out. Might give it a try next time out, but that buffer does change the situation from essentially no felt recoil, to definitely noticeable. |
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[#21]
I believe I owe @MJ11B4P and JohnSmith6073 an apology / acknowledgement for calling out the federals softer brass from the start. As well as @bfoosh06.
Last night I pulled out my old boxes of spent brass and took a closer look at the federals, stuff I shot years ago without a suppressor. Indeed they all have tiny ejector imprint rearwards. Not at all noticeable unless directly looking for it and feeling for a ridge with a fingernail. Make sense that the bit more pressure from the AEM5 would exaggerate that imprint. All of my old black hills brass does not have the imprint, but till I get more on hand I won't be able to confirm if the black hills brass won't get deformed with the can or not. I'm leaning towards prolly not. My take away with this is, with the buffer the federal brass is salvageable/reusable with the AEM5, without the buffer its not, unless waiting for the barrel to cool completely on every shot. So if saving the brass is important, the heavy buffer is a winner. I guess it boils down to ya get what ya pay for. I bought a stockpile worth of this FC262 before ammo went scarce, and without having shot it threw the suppressor yet. I'll just keep shooting it till ammo goes back to being reasonably priced and acquirable. Blackhills seems to be working on a new bulk purchasable box of sorts for this 77gr stuff anyway. Maybe that's old news as I haven't checked their website for a few months till just recently. but it wasn't on there ~6 months ago. I need to find a company that is able to allow backorders and able to make orders with black hills... Heck that frustration alone is almost reason enough to consider getting a FFL. (also)This Monday I put in a order with Brownells and added the JP (ejector / spring / pin) kit of sorts. Supposedly that spring might be a bit stronger. Will give it a try once it arrives. |
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[#22]
Need an adjustable gas block. Would benefit from more dwell time. But that’s not going to happen with that barrel. The extra back pressure is keeping the brass “inflated” in the chamber longer and the extractor is trying to tear the rim off. Mine did the same thing with those ejector swipe marks. Tuned the gas and it went away. Rifle length buffer, standard weight buffer, rifle gas system.
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[#23]
Quoted: ... Would benefit from more dwell time. But that’s not going to happen with that barrel. The extra back pressure is keeping the brass “inflated” in the chamber longer and the extractor is trying to tear the rim off... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: ... Would benefit from more dwell time. But that’s not going to happen with that barrel. The extra back pressure is keeping the brass “inflated” in the chamber longer and the extractor is trying to tear the rim off... Thats a legit way to visualise it. Quoted: ...prefer lever type adjustable gas blocks that just have the three settings of normal, adverse, and off. The trick here, is to either get the lever without any ports on it so you can drill your own sizes, or to just weld up the ports and start fresh. Hence we turn the adverse to normal port size, so the rig can run 55 gr without can on that setting. Next work up on the normal sizes to run the with just the heaver ammo. the last off setting, we size that port so the rifle can run with both the can and heaver bullet ammo. Simply, since the lever just has the three setting that you have adjusted for your different needs, can switch it as needed dark thirty by feel alone with it simple repeats. Quoted: "...prefer to solve the problem running a standard weight buffer and reducing the amount of gas to the B/C instead. Myself, if the rig is going to run the suppressor full time and only going to be Feed it 262 ammo, would just Tig weld the gas port on the barrel closed, and re-drill the port smaller size as needed instead..." I'll bite, any suggestions on brand for a 3-positional gas block that'll fit with a KAC URX 3.1 13.5" forend? I will be ditching the Seekins (upper(IRMT-R)/lower/15" MCSRV2 rail) soon. Picked up a KAC 3.1 URX 13.5" rail / Aero AR15 upper (not m4e1 threaded) / Aero M4E1 lower. I'll have no love lost ditching my current gas block when doing the swap. |
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[#24]
I just run the slr gas blocks and tune them for proper ejection with the ammo I choose. They are super low profile. Once I set them I don’t mess with it. The rifles that have them are shot suppressed 100% of the time so I didn’t mess with any of the lever types.
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[#25]
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[#26]
Kind of a fan of the adjustable gas keys for GP, but since your putting the obstruction at the end of the gas tube, can have some drawbacks with long rapids and full auto fire (cause the gas tube to deflect, and warp over time, more that the standard back pressure of just the B/C to begin with).
So with adjustable key in play, make sure that you are pulling the Bolt off the carrier every so often, to double check your alignment of gas tube to key is staying true. |
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[#27]
After a decade of putting together AR’s in a variety of calibers, including wildcats, with all different barrel lengths and suppressing all of them, the most important thing I have learned is to control your gas. I prefer adjustable gas block, but also have used adj gas keys ans adj BCG’s like the Bootleg (which i would recommend for you).
Controlling the gas is everything. |
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[#28]
Ejector marks, blown primers equals high pressure. You can change buffers all you like, but that doesn't do anything to change pressure created by the cartridge. Either you have a tight barrel, soft brass, or excessive powder charge. I'd suggest you quite shooting this ammo until you contact Federal regarding this problem. I once had a .22-250 displayed pressure sighs with 3 different brands of factory ammo, all showed flattened primers. I yanked the barrel off replaced it with take off barrel from the same manufacturer, problem disappeared.
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