Daniel Defense M4V5 vs M4A1: Midlength or Carbine? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Daniel Defense M4V5 vs M4A1: Midlength or Carbine? (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 2/20/2019 1:29:50 PM EDT

Hello all. I've lurked AR15.com for over a decade now, but only just now made an account. I appreciate all the knowledge I've been able to gain from everyone here over the years. Anyway, onto business...

Tax return time and I'm set on blowing it on another AR. I've narrowed it down to a Daniel Defense M4A1 or a Daniel Defense M4V5. The primary differences between these two is that the M4A1 has a 14.5" barrel with a pinned & welded flash hider and a carbine-length gas system, while the M4V5 has a 16" barrel with a midlength gas system. I like the idea of a 14.5" barrel even if it's only marginally shorter overall. I also like the RIS II the M4A1 comes with.

The main dilemma is that I want to be able to run low power ammo through it. I usually only shoot 5.56, but in the event there's only low powered .223 available I'd like to be able to shoot that reliably. As I understand it, a midlength gas system shooting lower powered ammo is closer to the functional threshold of being able to cycle, particularly with 14.5" barrels using a .076" gas port as BCM and Daniel Defense use (from what I gather), and BCM recommends only using mil-spec 5.56 in their 14.5" midlengths. Does this hold true for 16" midlengths, or does the 1.5 extra inches of dwell time ensure it'll run anything? I've shot midlengths and can't discern a difference in recoil from the carbine, and they both have low profile gas blocks, so sight radius and recoil aren't a factor for me. Being able to eat any ammo and having maximum reliability is the main decision factor.

At this time I'm down to a 6920, Colt AR15A4, and MI carbine. I was set on getting another Colt until I heard of their switching to almost completely outsourcing. It's made me doubt whether currently produced Colts are good to go. I appreciate any insight, or any additional suggestions.

Posted: 2/20/2019 2:13:56 PM EDT

[#1]

I don't have problems with steel in my 16in midlengths including a Daniel Defense barrel.

But if you want the m4a1, I would be surprised if you had problems with it. DD barrels have a reputation for being a tad over gassed if I remember correctly.

Posted: 2/20/2019 2:14:35 PM EDT

[#2]

Short answer, you should be able to run anything in barrels that long. I think the issue comes when going to pistol/SBR length barrels.

While I've never owned a Colt, I have/have had midlength rifles by DD, BCM, CMMG, RRA, Ballistic Advantage, and none of them had issues with Monarch steel cased or PMC .223 ammunition. Now my DD Mk18, it'll cycle lower power ammo just fine but will not lock the bolt back consistently.

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But if you want the m4a1, I would be surprised if you had problems with it. DD barrels have a reputation for being a tad over gassed if I remember correctly.

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I know they used to have that issue but have fixed it recently, at least the Mk18s anyway.

Posted: 2/20/2019 5:20:57 PM EDT

[#3]

You should have no problem with either. I've never had a problem with a 16" midlength or carbine gas on cycling wolf steel cased, even in cold weather. Ive had LMT, PSA, BCM, Ballistic Advantage, Spikes, and Areo Precision. All worked fine. I'd go for the M4A1 since it sounds like you desire its feature set.

Posted: 2/20/2019 5:25:31 PM EDT

[#4]

M4A1 all the way. Amazing piece of machinery

Posted: 2/20/2019 5:26:55 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
The primary differences between these two is that the M4A1 has a 14.5" barrel with a pinned & welded flash hider and a carbine-length gas system, while the M4V5 has a 16" barrel with a midlength gas system.

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You will be fine with any off the shelf ammo, with either of these barrels.

If it were me, it would be 14.5, all day, and incidentally; it would be 14.5 midlength

Posted: 2/20/2019 6:10:41 PM EDT

[#6]

If you want a 14.5” middy, Daniel Defense has a DDM4V5S model as well.

Posted: 2/20/2019 6:26:01 PM EDT

[#7]

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If you want a 14.5” middy, Daniel Defense has a DDM4V5S model as well.

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Thanks to the replies so far from everyone. It sounds like I can't go wrong either way. The M4A1 is set up perfectly how I want it, and it speaks to me. I've always wanted a RIS II. The DDM4V5/V5S rail is pretty ideal too, though. I've looked at the V5S and it is a sweet rifle no doubt, but for midlength I'd want to go 16".

Basically it comes down to which is more reliable: a 16" midlength gas or a 14.5" carbine length gas. Crane testing shows a reliability advantage with a 14.5" midlength (with a DD barrel no less) but that's with very high pressure M855A1, so I'm not sure how applicable that is to a civilian who may be shooting lower pressure .223 and normal pressure 5.56.

If both have a large buffer of reliability (such as the ability to go 2k rounds with no failure assuming proper cleaning/maintenance and quality magazines/ammunition) then I'd choose the carbine gas A1. Is it safe to assume a well-taken-care-of carbine has this ability?

Posted: 2/20/2019 6:56:14 PM EDT

[#8]

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Thanks to the replies so far from everyone. It sounds like I can't go wrong either way. The M4A1 is set up perfectly how I want it, and it speaks to me. I've always wanted a RIS II. The DDM4V5/V5S rail is pretty ideal too, though. I've looked at the V5S and it is a sweet rifle no doubt, but for midlength I'd want to go 16".

Basically it comes down to which is more reliable: a 16" midlength gas or a 14.5" carbine length gas. Crane testing shows a reliability advantage with a 14.5" midlength (with a DD barrel no less) but that's with very high pressure M855A1, so I'm not sure how applicable that is to a civilian who may be shooting lower pressure .223 and normal pressure 5.56.

If both have a large buffer of reliability (such as the ability to go 2k rounds with no failure assuming proper cleaning/maintenance and quality magazines/ammunition) then I'd choose the carbine gas A1. Is it safe to assume a well-taken-care-of carbine has this ability?

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If you want a 14.5” middy, Daniel Defense has a DDM4V5S model as well.

Thanks to the replies so far from everyone. It sounds like I can't go wrong either way. The M4A1 is set up perfectly how I want it, and it speaks to me. I've always wanted a RIS II. The DDM4V5/V5S rail is pretty ideal too, though. I've looked at the V5S and it is a sweet rifle no doubt, but for midlength I'd want to go 16".

Basically it comes down to which is more reliable: a 16" midlength gas or a 14.5" carbine length gas. Crane testing shows a reliability advantage with a 14.5" midlength (with a DD barrel no less) but that's with very high pressure M855A1, so I'm not sure how applicable that is to a civilian who may be shooting lower pressure .223 and normal pressure 5.56.

If both have a large buffer of reliability (such as the ability to go 2k rounds with no failure assuming proper cleaning/maintenance and quality magazines/ammunition) then I'd choose the carbine gas A1. Is it safe to assume a well-taken-care-of carbine has this ability?

Get the M4A1 setup, it is clearly what you're looking for and getting anything else will make you regret the purchase.

Both will be completely reliable for 2k+ rounds with basic lubrication and not even cleaning. The system is stout and capable of being pushed extremely hard, with 14.5 mid/carbine or 16 mid/carbine.

After you've shot out your 14.5 carbine barrel, which will take you thousand upon thousands of rounds, you can always re-barrel it with a 14.5 midlength.

Posted: 2/20/2019 7:32:19 PM EDT

[#9]

M4A1. Highest quality AR I own. I shoot low powered ammo through mine most of the time and have never had a malfuntion 1000 rounds in.

Posted: 2/20/2019 7:35:52 PM EDT

[#10]

I have an M4A1 and a M4V7LW. Both eat everything I put through them. I shoot a lot of Tula and Monarch (Both are steel and underpowered) when I’m doing high round count drills. .

Posted: 2/20/2019 7:57:50 PM EDT

[#11]

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M4A1 all the way. Amazing piece of machinery

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This

Posted: 2/20/2019 8:55:32 PM EDT

[#12]

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I have an M4A1 and a M4V7LW. Both eat everything I put through them. I shoot a lot of Tula and Monarch (Both are steel and underpowered) when I’m doing high round count drills. .

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Thanks, great to hear. Is there anything that makes you prefer one over the other? Just curious.

Based on these responses so far I'm heavily leaning towards the M4A1. It speaks to my heart!

Posted: 2/20/2019 8:58:45 PM EDT

[#13]

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Get the M4A1 setup, it is clearly what you're looking for and getting anything else will make you regret the purchase.

Both will be completely reliable for 2k+ rounds with basic lubrication and not even cleaning. The system is stout and capable of being pushed extremely hard, with 14.5 mid/carbine or 16 mid/carbine.

After you've shot out your 14.5 carbine barrel, which will take you thousand upon thousands of rounds, you can always re-barrel it with a 14.5 midlength.

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You're right, if I got the V5 I'd be wondering if I'd be happier with the A1. Thanks.

The website says it's M4 profile. The SOCOM M4A1 uses a heavier profile than the regular M4 government though. I want the government profile. I've seen a couple of people on here referring to the DD M4A1 as having a SOCOM barrel. Those of you who have the A1, can you confirm whether it's government profile or not? I also thought I saw where one variant has the set screw MK12 gas block (can't find it now for some reason), but I want the one with the pinned low-profile.

Posted: 2/20/2019 9:40:20 PM EDT

[#14]

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You're right, if I got the V5 I'd be wondering if I'd be happier with the A1. Thanks.

The website says it's M4 profile. The SOCOM M4A1 uses a heavier profile than the regular M4 government though. I want the government profile. I've seen a couple of people on here referring to the DD M4A1 as having a SOCOM barrel. Those of you who have the A1, can you confirm whether it's government profile or not? I also thought I saw where one variant has the set screw MK12 gas block (can't find it now for some reason), but I want the one with the pinned low-profile.

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Get the M4A1 setup, it is clearly what you're looking for and getting anything else will make you regret the purchase.

Both will be completely reliable for 2k+ rounds with basic lubrication and not even cleaning. The system is stout and capable of being pushed extremely hard, with 14.5 mid/carbine or 16 mid/carbine.

After you've shot out your 14.5 carbine barrel, which will take you thousand upon thousands of rounds, you can always re-barrel it with a 14.5 midlength.

You're right, if I got the V5 I'd be wondering if I'd be happier with the A1. Thanks.

The website says it's M4 profile. The SOCOM M4A1 uses a heavier profile than the regular M4 government though. I want the government profile. I've seen a couple of people on here referring to the DD M4A1 as having a SOCOM barrel. Those of you who have the A1, can you confirm whether it's government profile or not? I also thought I saw where one variant has the set screw MK12 gas block (can't find it now for some reason), but I want the one with the pinned low-profile.

The DD M4A1 full rifle should come with a M4 profile barrel.

Per their webpage:

"BARREL: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 Twist, 14.5? M4 Profile, Chrome Lined, Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate Coated, and HP/MPI Tested"

ETA: The SOCOM barrel setup people are talking about shouldn't be the DD setup but rather the military setup that is migrating to SOCOM profile barrels and the M4A1+ program. The DD M4A1 is M4 profile and per their site has a pinned gas block.

Posted: 2/21/2019 12:22:18 AM EDT

[#15]

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Thanks, great to hear. Is there anything that makes you prefer one over the other? Just curious.

Based on these responses so far I'm heavily leaning towards the M4A1. It speaks to my heart!

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I have an M4A1 and a M4V7LW. Both eat everything I put through them. I shoot a lot of Tula and Monarch (Both are steel and underpowered) when I’m doing high round count drills. .

Thanks, great to hear. Is there anything that makes you prefer one over the other? Just curious.

Based on these responses so far I'm heavily leaning towards the M4A1. It speaks to my heart!

The M4A1 I have setup with a red dot.

The V7 with a 1-6x.

I did it that way so I enjoy both in different capacities

It’s very close but I like the 14.5” from the M4A1 slightly more.

Edit: Always better with pictures

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Took the Aimpoint off and trying out this Romeo4m with eotech style reticle

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Posted: 2/21/2019 9:25:45 AM EDT

[#16]

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The DD M4A1 full rifle should come with a M4 profile barrel.

Per their webpage:

"BARREL: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 Twist, 14.5? M4 Profile, Chrome Lined, Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate Coated, and HP/MPI Tested"

ETA: The SOCOM barrel setup people are talking about shouldn't be the DD setup but rather the military setup that is migrating to SOCOM profile barrels and the M4A1+ program. The DD M4A1 is M4 profile and per their site has a pinned gas block.

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Ah, okay. I must've been looking at another rifle on their site regarding the MK12 gas block.

XeroSasEnchros, thanks for the pictures. The M4A1 looks even better than the stock photos. I've made my decision, I'm going with the DD M4A1. Thanks for the help, everyone. Can't wait to get it!

Posted: 2/21/2019 11:35:49 AM EDT

[#17]

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Ah, okay. I must've been looking at another rifle on their site regarding the MK12 gas block.

XeroSasEnchros, thanks for the pictures. The M4A1 looks even better than the stock photos. I've made my decision, I'm going with the DD M4A1. Thanks for the help, everyone. Can't wait to get it!

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Quoted:

Quoted:

The DD M4A1 full rifle should come with a M4 profile barrel.

Per their webpage:

"BARREL: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 Twist, 14.5? M4 Profile, Chrome Lined, Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate Coated, and HP/MPI Tested"

ETA: The SOCOM barrel setup people are talking about shouldn't be the DD setup but rather the military setup that is migrating to SOCOM profile barrels and the M4A1+ program. The DD M4A1 is M4 profile and per their site has a pinned gas block.

Ah, okay. I must've been looking at another rifle on their site regarding the MK12 gas block.

XeroSasEnchros, thanks for the pictures. The M4A1 looks even better than the stock photos. I've made my decision, I'm going with the DD M4A1. Thanks for the help, everyone. Can't wait to get it!

Post up some pictures, when you finally get it in your hands.

Curious, planning on changing out the stock/grip? SOPMOD stock on a M4A1 DD rifle looks amazing.

Posted: 2/21/2019 11:56:26 AM EDT

[#18]

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Ah, okay. I must've been looking at another rifle on their site regarding the MK12 gas block.

XeroSasEnchros, thanks for the pictures. The M4A1 looks even better than the stock photos. I've made my decision, I'm going with the DD M4A1. Thanks for the help, everyone. Can't wait to get it!

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Quoted:

Quoted:

The DD M4A1 full rifle should come with a M4 profile barrel.

Per their webpage:

"BARREL: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 Twist, 14.5? M4 Profile, Chrome Lined, Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate Coated, and HP/MPI Tested"

ETA: The SOCOM barrel setup people are talking about shouldn't be the DD setup but rather the military setup that is migrating to SOCOM profile barrels and the M4A1+ program. The DD M4A1 is M4 profile and per their site has a pinned gas block.

Ah, okay. I must've been looking at another rifle on their site regarding the MK12 gas block.

XeroSasEnchros, thanks for the pictures. The M4A1 looks even better than the stock photos. I've made my decision, I'm going with the DD M4A1. Thanks for the help, everyone. Can't wait to get it!

Awesome! Post it up once you get it.

Posted: 2/21/2019 12:54:23 PM EDT

[#19]

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Post up some pictures, when you finally get it in your hands.

Curious, planning on changing out the stock/grip? SOPMOD stock on a M4A1 DD rifle looks amazing.

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I'll definitely post pictures when I get it. It may be a little bit, though.

And yes, I definitely plan on putting on a SOPMOD stock. Going for that Block II look. I can't find an LMT one that's in FDE matching the rail, though. I've always been partial to a completely black rifle, but I actually like the way the rail looks on the M4A1 with the FDE. Not sure yet if I'm going to try to get all FDE furniture for it or just get the black. B5 has an FDE SOPMOD stock but it looks like it might be a bit lighter in color than the RIS II rail.

One things for sure, I'm replacing the DD stock and pistol grip.

Posted: 2/22/2019 4:29:56 PM EDT

[#20]

Update:

I just about have the money together to order the Daniel Defense. But another model has come on my radar: the DDM4V1. I've always liked double-pinned front sight blocks, they seem about as bombproof as it gets. However, I do prefer the looks of the M4A1 and the fact that it has a 14.5" barrel. Do y'all think the FSB is significantly more durable than the pinned low profile GB of the M4A1, or is it splitting hairs at this point? It looks like the low-profile has one pin while the FSB has two.

Is it the gas system itself that is made more durable by a FSB or just the sight?

Posted: 2/22/2019 4:58:16 PM EDT

[#21]

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Update:

I just about have the money together to order the Daniel Defense. But another model has come on my radar: the DDM4V1. I've always liked double-pinned front sight blocks, they seem about as bombproof as it gets. However, I do prefer the looks of the M4A1 and the fact that it has a 14.5" barrel. Do y'all think the FSB is significantly more durable than the pinned low profile GB of the M4A1, or is it splitting hairs at this point? It looks like the low-profile has one pin while the FSB has two.

Is it the gas system itself that is made more durable by a FSB or just the sight?

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The gas block on the M4A1 is already pinned, it's going to be strong as you'll ever want it. The FSB benefits from the sight being stronger but it adds a decent amount of weight and is harder to get folding sight setups.

Get the M4A1, it has a better handguard, the barrel you want and the feel you want.

Posted: 2/22/2019 5:06:12 PM EDT

[#22]

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The gas block on the M4A1 is already pinned, it's going to be strong as you'll ever want it. The FSB benefits from the sight being stronger but it adds a decent amount of weight and is harder to get folding sight setups.

Get the M4A1, it has a better handguard, the barrel you want and the feel you want.

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So I assume the the low-pro with 1 pin is still as durable as the 2-pinned FSB?

What got me thinking about this was watching a Mrgunsandgear video where he mentioned preferring a FSB over a low-pro for durability (though he did say the "newer low profile gas blocks are up there").

If it's only a durability advantage for the sight itself that's a nonfactor.

Posted: 2/22/2019 5:08:28 PM EDT

[#23]

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Update:

I just about have the money together to order the Daniel Defense. But another model has come on my radar: the DDM4V1. I've always liked double-pinned front sight blocks, they seem about as bombproof as it gets. However, I do prefer the looks of the M4A1 and the fact that it has a 14.5" barrel. Do y'all think the FSB is significantly more durable than the pinned low profile GB of the M4A1, or is it splitting hairs at this point? It looks like the low-profile has one pin while the FSB has two.

Is it the gas system itself that is made more durable by a FSB or just the sight?

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The pinned gb on the M4A1 is plenty durable. You would never notice a difference between the two. The weak point of any gas system is the gas tube, not the gas block.

Posted: 2/22/2019 7:01:55 PM EDT

[#24]

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The pinned gb on the M4A1 is plenty durable. You would never notice a difference between the two. The weak point of any gas system is the gas tube, not the gas block.

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Quoted:
Update:

I just about have the money together to order the Daniel Defense. But another model has come on my radar: the DDM4V1. I've always liked double-pinned front sight blocks, they seem about as bombproof as it gets. However, I do prefer the looks of the M4A1 and the fact that it has a 14.5" barrel. Do y'all think the FSB is significantly more durable than the pinned low profile GB of the M4A1, or is it splitting hairs at this point? It looks like the low-profile has one pin while the FSB has two.

Is it the gas system itself that is made more durable by a FSB or just the sight?

The pinned gb on the M4A1 is plenty durable. You would never notice a difference between the two. The weak point of any gas system is the gas tube, not the gas block.

This. The low profile gas block is also under your handguard. It won't be taking impacts/hits the same as the FSB would.

There are plenty of military rifles out there with dimpled only low profile gas blocks with absolutely no issues.

Go with your first instinct/desire. Get the M4A1.

Posted: 2/22/2019 10:51:13 PM EDT

[#25]

Socom has no issue with their M4A1 block 2 low profile gas blocks. The DD M4A1 is tough as nails no reason to second guess them.

Posted: 2/22/2019 11:00:07 PM EDT

[#26]

Alright, thanks for bearing with my OCD everyone. I'm getting Troy folding sights for it anyway (and eventually a Comp M4), so I won't be worrying about front sight durability. If all goes smooth I'll be putting in the order on Monday at the latest for the M4A1. Pics will be incoming. I haven't been this excited for a new rifle since I bought my M1 Garand when I turned 18.

Posted: 2/23/2019 12:30:16 AM EDT

[#27]

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Alright, thanks for bearing with my OCD everyone. I'm getting Troy folding sights for it anyway (and eventually a Comp M4), so I won't be worrying about front sight durability. If all goes smooth I'll be putting in the order on Monday at the latest for the M4A1. Pics will be incoming. I haven't been this excited for a new rifle since I bought my M1 Garand when I turned 18.

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Dude, no worries. That is a a lot of money and a big decision. Perfectly understandable to want to get some feedback. Let us know how you like it.

Posted: 2/23/2019 10:47:57 AM EDT

[#28]

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Dude, no worries. That is a a lot of money and a big decision. Perfectly understandable to want to get some feedback. Let us know how you like it.

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Will do. Thanks!

Posted: 2/23/2019 11:07:42 AM EDT

[#29]

Mid-length without hesitation.

Both of my FN 14.5” mids run fine with any ammo I throw at them, so you should be fine with a DD which are known to be over-gassed anyways.

Posted: 2/23/2019 2:17:22 PM EDT

[#30]

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Mid-length without hesitation.

Both of my FN 14.5” mids run fine with any ammo I throw at them, so you should be fine with a DD which are known to be over-gassed anyways.

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Just curious, why do you recommend the midlength over the carbine? Does it have anything to do with reliability or is it the smoother shooting characteristics?

Posted: 2/23/2019 4:57:12 PM EDT

[#31]

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Just curious, why do you recommend the midlength over the carbine? Does it have anything to do with reliability or is it the smoother shooting characteristics?

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Mid-length without hesitation.

Both of my FN 14.5” mids run fine with any ammo I throw at them, so you should be fine with a DD which are known to be over-gassed anyways.

Just curious, why do you recommend the midlength over the carbine? Does it have anything to do with reliability or is it the smoother shooting characteristics?

Both, recent testing by Crane shows increased reliability with a mid-length gas system on the units they used, and the URGs made by geissele uses a DD mid-length 14.5” barrel.

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/05/14/nswc-crane-carbine-mid-length-gas-system-testing-shows-increased-performance/

This really isn’t new info, mid-length has proven itself for years.

Posted: 2/23/2019 6:07:07 PM EDT

[#32]

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Both, recent testing by Crane shows increased reliability with a mid-length gas system on the units they used, and the URGs made by geissele uses a DD mid-length 14.5” barrel.

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Yeah, I saw that test last year. It's the sole reason I'm considering a midlength, because of the reliability advantage demonstrated. For some reason I want the carbine length though, partly because I have a friend with a midlength 14.5" with a .076" gas port (same gas port size as the DD iirc) and it won't run PMC Bronze .223 and other low pressure ammo without frequent short stroking. I also just plain have some intangible attraction to the 14.5" carbine length.

I can see why 14.5" Mids run more reliably with M855A1 because it's so high pressure, but I wonder if that still holds true when using standard and lower pressure ammunition.

There's also a few things about the Crane test that make me scratch my head. Even the midlength has an overall MRBS under 2000 rounds. My pistols will easily go several thousand rounds without any stoppages, and 2k between gun-related malfunctions has always been my minimum standard for reliability on a self defense firearm. The carbine length did even worse, but the Army put out a paper in 2009 claiming that the M4A1 was going 3600 rounds between stoppages. (Source: http://www.peosoldier.army.mil/docs/WeaponsReliabilityInformationPaper-Oct%2009.pdf )

I want the carbine length, but I also want the most reliable option since this will be my main go-to rifle. This midlength vs carbine reliability thing has been the main issue making me question what I'm going to buy. However, if the answer is "they're both really damn reliable", I want the carbine.

Posted: 2/23/2019 10:20:45 PM EDT

[#33]

I run cheap steel and brass (with the exception of Tula) and have zero problems with mine...basic milspec parts, c158 bolt, carbine buffer & spring, A2 FSB.

Keep in mind there are other factors such as buffer weight, which is typically heavier on a carbine length, but a standard carbine buffer works fine for most mids.

If you're set on a carbine, then get one, otherwise you will be second guessing your decision.

Both will work, though statically speaking, the mid would likely last longer.

Posted: 2/23/2019 11:26:27 PM EDT

[#34]

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I run cheap steel and brass (with the exception of Tula) and have zero problems with mine...basic milspec parts, c158 bolt, carbine buffer & spring, A2 FSB.

Keep in mind there are other factors such as buffer weight, which is typically heavier on a carbine length, but a standard carbine buffer works fine for most mids.

If you're set on a carbine, then get one, otherwise you will be second guessing your decision.

Both will work, though statically speaking, the mid would likely last longer.

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I can definitely see how the mid's parts would last longer, but that's not too much of a factor for me, just reliability.

Those of you with DD M4A1s or similar carbine gas set ups, how many rounds do you have through it, and how many (if any) stoppages have you had? Is 2000 rounds between gun-related stoppages (using good ammo, good mags, lubed, etc) a realistic expectation?

Posted: 2/23/2019 11:59:39 PM EDT

[#35]

Zero in 2600 rounds.

1 Pmag didn’t lock open but it was 5 years and 2 deployments old.

It’s eaten Tula, Monark, Wolf, LC/American Eagle/IWI m193, LC/IMI M855, Sig 77gr OTM, .223 reloads, and Amax/zmax.

All other mags have been fine. Pmags m2/m3, DD mags, Troy mags, 1 hexmag, and USGI (All mags from Okay to original 20 round metal follower Colt AR15 mags.)

Edit. I had a Del-Ton 16” M4 contour barrel kit on a Stag stripped lower. I bought in 08. It had around 30k rounds through it with probably 5 or 6 malfunctions. Mostly hollow point related and 1 stuck wolf military classic case.

Army guns I’ve seen all types of crazy stuff happen but that has more to do with maintenance issues or old beat to death magazines.

Proper maintenance, good mags, and good lube your rifle should go thousands of rounds without a malfunction. It should be a rare occurrence.

Posted: 2/24/2019 10:49:59 AM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
Zero in 2600 rounds.

1 Pmag didn’t lock open but it was 5 years and 2 deployments old.

It’s eaten Tula, Monark, Wolf, LC/American Eagle/IWI m193, LC/IMI M855, Sig 77gr OTM, .223 reloads, and Amax/zmax.

All other mags have been fine. Pmags m2/m3, DD mags, Troy mags, 1 hexmag, and USGI (All mags from Okay to original 20 round metal follower Colt AR15 mags.)

Edit. I had a Del-Ton 16” M4 contour barrel kit on a Stag stripped lower. I bought in 08. It had around 30k rounds through it with probably 5 or 6 malfunctions. Mostly hollow point related and 1 stuck wolf military classic case.

Army guns I’ve seen all types of crazy stuff happen but that has more to do with maintenance issues or old beat to death magazines.

Proper maintenance, good mags, and good lube your rifle should go thousands of rounds without a malfunction. It should be a rare occurrence.

View Quote

Great to hear. Thanks. I know I'm overthinking this, but this'll probably be the last rifle I buy for a while (yeah right, we'll see how long that lasts) so I want to make sure I avoid any kind of doubts in my purchase.

Posted: 2/24/2019 11:07:58 AM EDT

[#37]

I've owned both and have shot lots of boolits through each...I still have the M4A1. With a minor pistol grip (MIAD) upgrade, you can store a spare bolt and cam pin and you're ready for the Apocalypse.

Posted: 2/24/2019 11:51:49 AM EDT

[#38]

I've just been reading about midlength vs carbine for a long time. Never considered buying midlength until the NSWC test came out. It seems like many here consider midlength to be a must, and seeing how poorly the carbine did in the Crane test has made me consider whether I'd be better off with a midlength. I want the 14.5" carbine length, but if the midlength is more reliable maybe I'd be happier with it.

Then again, people trust carbine-length gas 10.3" SBRs all the time and proper ones seem to work well, and a 14.5" carbine length should be at least as reliable as those if not moreso, right?

Posted: 2/24/2019 12:03:41 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
I've just been reading about midlength vs carbine for a long time. Never considered buying midlength until the NSWC test came out. It seems like many here consider midlength to be a must, and seeing how poorly the carbine did in the Crane test has made me consider whether I'd be better off with a midlength. I want the 14.5" carbine length, but if the midlength is more reliable maybe I'd be happier with it.

Then again, people trust carbine-length gas 10.3" SBRs all the time and proper ones seem to work well, and a 14.5" carbine length should be at least as reliable as those if not moreso, right?

View Quote

Good God.

I own plenty of both, and I don't think anybody here is going to say that a mid is more reliable than a carbine IF both are properly gassed for their barrel lengths.

This thread is going to drag on forever, if you let it. Just pick one.

My decision to pick a midlength on a 14.5 is simply because I prefer the recoil impulse on the midlength 14.5. It is ever so slight, but it is a bit smoother feeling. To a new shooter, it might be imperceptible.

An argument can be made that the lower pressure of a midlength 14.5 will be better on your BCG/parts, as you likely read in the Crane test. Do you realize how many rounds that will take? Be honest with yourself about how long that will take.

Yes, all of my carbine gassed SBRs work great, but that doesn't translate to a perfect 14.5 midlength.

Is this going to be your first, and only AR? Perhaps the carbine gas would be the way to go, for you. Should the world end tomorrow, you would be all but guaranteed to have enough gas to cycle shitty ammo.

My recommendation, GET BOTH. It is the only way you will know, and then you can jump on the AR Crazy Train with the rest of us.

Good luck.

Posted: 2/24/2019 12:38:01 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:

Good God.

I own plenty of both, and I don't think anybody here is going to say that a mid is more reliable than a carbine IF both are properly gassed for their barrel lengths.

This thread is going to drag on forever, if you let it. Just pick one.

My decision to pick a midlength on a 14.5 is simply because I prefer the recoil impulse on the midlength 14.5. It is ever so slight, but it is a bit smoother feeling. To a new shooter, it might be imperceptible.

An argument can be made that the lower pressure of a midlength 14.5 will be better on your BCG/parts, as you likely read in the Crane test. Do you realize how many rounds that will take? Be honest with yourself about how long that will take.

Yes, all of my carbine gassed SBRs work great, but that doesn't translate to a perfect 14.5 midlength.

Is this going to be your first, and only AR? Perhaps the carbine gas would be the way to go, for you. Should the world end tomorrow, you would be all but guaranteed to have enough gas to cycle shitty ammo.

My recommendation, GET BOTH. It is the only way you will know, and then you can jump on the AR Crazy Train with the rest of us.

Good luck.

View Quote

Nah, this isn't my first AR. My first was a 6920 about 10 years ago after researching this site. I've owned 8 total, but only have 3 right now. I shoot maybe 3 thousand rounds of 5.56 a year but I plan on raising that number in 2019 with carbine courses.

It's not the parts longevity that the Crane test demonstrated that makes me consider the middy, it's the increased rounds between malfunctions. Maybe I'm just interpreting the data wrong. It does say Mean Rounds Between Failures rather than Between Stoppages, but I didn't think carbine lengths broke parts that fast.

Posted: 2/24/2019 12:40:42 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Nah, this isn't my first AR. My first was a 6920 about 10 years ago after researching this site. I've owned 8 total, but only have 3 right now. I shoot maybe 3 thousand rounds of 5.56 a year but I plan on raising that number in 2019 with carbine courses.

It's not the parts longevity that the Crane test demonstrated that makes me consider the middy, it's the increased rounds between malfunctions. Maybe I'm just interpreting the data wrong. It does say Mean Rounds Between Failures rather than Between Stoppages, but I didn't think carbine lengths broke parts that fast.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Good God.

I own plenty of both, and I don't think anybody here is going to say that a mid is more reliable than a carbine IF both are properly gassed for their barrel lengths.

This thread is going to drag on forever, if you let it. Just pick one.

My decision to pick a midlength on a 14.5 is simply because I prefer the recoil impulse on the midlength 14.5. It is ever so slight, but it is a bit smoother feeling. To a new shooter, it might be imperceptible.

An argument can be made that the lower pressure of a midlength 14.5 will be better on your BCG/parts, as you likely read in the Crane test. Do you realize how many rounds that will take? Be honest with yourself about how long that will take.

Yes, all of my carbine gassed SBRs work great, but that doesn't translate to a perfect 14.5 midlength.

Is this going to be your first, and only AR? Perhaps the carbine gas would be the way to go, for you. Should the world end tomorrow, you would be all but guaranteed to have enough gas to cycle shitty ammo.

My recommendation, GET BOTH. It is the only way you will know, and then you can jump on the AR Crazy Train with the rest of us.

Good luck.

Nah, this isn't my first AR. My first was a 6920 about 10 years ago after researching this site. I've owned 8 total, but only have 3 right now. I shoot maybe 3 thousand rounds of 5.56 a year but I plan on raising that number in 2019 with carbine courses.

It's not the parts longevity that the Crane test demonstrated that makes me consider the middy, it's the increased rounds between malfunctions. Maybe I'm just interpreting the data wrong. It does say Mean Rounds Between Failures rather than Between Stoppages, but I didn't think carbine lengths broke parts that fast.

Well, hell. With carbine courses, you may eat up the round count, and make all that midlength data matter! In your specific case, I say go for the mid, brother.

Posted: 2/24/2019 2:11:48 PM EDT

[#42]

Well, that’s a horse of a different color...if you already have a couple of carbines, then there’s no reason NOT to try out a mid.

Variety is a good thing.

Posted: 2/24/2019 2:13:44 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:

Well, hell. With carbine courses, you may eat up the round count, and make all that midlength data matter! In your specific case, I say go for the mid, brother.

View Quote

Is it just the longer parts life that I'd be seeing a benefit from, or is there some advantage in reliability as well?
I have enough bolts on hand to where I'm not too worried about the parts, but if the midlength is more likely to go 2,000 rounds without a malfunction, that's significant for me.

I know I'm riding this subject hard and am coming off as a clueless newbie, I'm just trying to come to a decision to order tomorrow. I appreciate the input.

ETA:
WrenchGuy, I have owned 1 midlength before (sold to get something I just had to have). I'd never shot it much, though. I don't want the ARs I already have to factor into this decision. I might have to thin out the herd a bit soon, unfortunately.

But basically, if the carbine length is going to be very reliable (ie: over 2k rounds without a malfunction blah blah), I'd prefer that, as I just lust after the M4A1 for a few reasons. However, this is primarily going to be a tool that will see a lot of hard use, so function is more important. I'll be happiest with whatever's going to be the most reliable. In addition to being a carbine class and range rifle, this will be my primary home defense weapon.

It might be silly for me to question the reliability of a carbine length since they’ve been used in combat for decades and many LEOs have relied on even 16” carbine gas. I guess I’m just looking for some confirmation that the carbine length is more than reliable enough to depend on if one’s life is staked on it.

Posted: 2/24/2019 2:24:00 PM EDT

[#44]

Just an FYI on the 14.5” concept in general...I use a VooDoo Manimal flash hider that is .74” diameter so my gas block slides right over it, allowing for future configuration changes.

For me it makes the most sense, and can easily be replaced later if you want to use a suppressor.

Posted: 2/24/2019 2:54:57 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
Basically it comes down to which is more reliable: a 16" midlength gas or a 14.5" carbine length gas.

View Quote

Longer barrels and longer gas systems have inherently larger operating envelopes. 16" midlength should be a better choice every day and twice on sunday.

If there was any doubt the Lucky Gunner tests showed the superiority of 16" midlength vs 16" carbines. The Crane testing showed the superiority of 14.5 midlengths vs 14.5 carbines. It's mythology that short (carbine) gas systems have some sort of reliability advantage with lower powered ammo.

In 2019 it should not even be in question that properly matching the gas system length to the barrel length is best for reliable function.

Posted: 2/24/2019 4:07:35 PM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:

Longer barrels and longer gas systems have inherently larger operating envelopes. 16" midlength should be a better choice every day and twice on sunday.

If there was any doubt the Lucky Gunner tests showed the superiority of 16" midlength vs 16" carbines. The Crane testing showed the superiority of 14.5 midlengths vs 14.5 carbines. It's mythology that short (carbine) gas systems have some sort of reliability advantage with lower powered ammo.

In 2019 it should not even be in question that properly matching the gas system length to the barrel length is best for reliable function.

View Quote

First off, glad to see you post in this thread, Gamma. I've gleaned knowledge from many of your posts over the years, particularly about the midlength gas system.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. However, if it is the case that a 14.5" mid has a larger operating envelope, why does BCM recommend only shooting full-power ammunition through their's? (I've also seen the short stroking issues with PMC Bronze .223 in a BCM ELW Mid 14.5" first hand with a friend's unaltered rifle). If I'm not mistaken, the BCM and DD have the same gas port size of .076".

Posted: 2/24/2019 4:15:22 PM EDT

[#47]

BCM?

You hit the nail on the head as to why there has ever been any question about the mid-length 14.5”.

BCM spec’d their barrels with a smaller gas port tuned specifically for NATO pressures, so they won’t function as well with lower pressure ammo at times...this is where the entire belief that a mid-length 14.5” is unreliable came from, BCM.

You want a quality barrel that will work, get an FN or DD...of course there are others but for your application I think either f those would fit well.

Posted: 2/24/2019 5:06:36 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well, that’s a horse of a different color...if you already have a couple of carbines, then there’s no reason NOT to try out a mid.

Variety is a good thing.

View Quote

This...variety is a good thing. And to be honest, neither the Carbine or the Mid-length ever caused me reliability issues. As of late the BCM EAG is my go to Appliance and have found it to be as reliable and accurate as the M4A1. And yes the mid-length's recoil is a bit softer. but then again you can just put an H3 in the M4A1 to mitigate recoil.

Posted: 2/24/2019 5:52:52 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:
BCM?

You hit the nail on the head as to why there has ever been any question about the mid-length 14.5”.

BCM spec’d their barrels with a smaller gas port tuned specifically for NATO pressures, so they won’t function as well with lower pressure ammo at times...this is where the entire belief that a mid-length 14.5” came from, BCM.

You want a quality barrel that will work, get an FN or DD...of course there are others but for your application I think either f those would fit well.

View Quote

But the DD and BCM 14.5" Mids have the same gas port diameter, don't they? Theoretically, shouldn't performance be about the same?

Good tip on the flash hider. I didn't know any existed that the gas block could fit over. Takes away the disadvantage of not being able to change much on the upper without breaking the weld.

I don't want to make this thread drag on forever, I just want to put to rest any potential doubts I may have after purchase. With the M4A1 I'd be wondering if the mid would be more reliable, and with the V5 I'd be wondering if the reliability of the A1 would've still been excellent and if I'd be happier with it and it's RIS II, 14.5" barrel, and possibly improved ability to run weak ammunition. The easy solution is to get both, but I just don't have the funds right now and I'm wanting to get my "one go-to rifle".

Posted: 2/24/2019 7:00:16 PM EDT

[#50]

They may indeed have similar or the same gas port spec now, I honestly don’t know, it was the earlier BCM 14.5” mids that had the issue.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Daniel Defense M4V5 vs M4A1: Midlength or Carbine? (Page 1 of 2)

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