User Panel
Posted: 3/3/2022 2:21:18 PM EDT
I’m thinking about consolidating my SD ammo stash to a single kind of round. I generally just practice and shoot with the cheapest 55-62gr fmj crap that I can get, so I have plenty of that.
But I have a handful of 62gr stuff (Fed Fusion and GDHP and TBBC/FBI3T) and 77 grain stuff. I’m going to focus on shifting to just one kind for commonality across all my 5.56 ARs. I don’t hunt (and wouldn’t) with any of my 556 rifles. All of the ARs I’d grab for anything remotely serious have barrels 10.3”-16” in length and my actual HD bedside grab & go gun is a 10.3” ... Consolidating to which round would serve me best? |
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I just go with IMI 77 OTM. Never tested it out of my 10.5, but from everything that I have read it is a viable projectile out of a shorter length 5.56 platform and the projectile has great expansion properties at lower velocities. Im sure theres tons of literature on the matter, so dont take my definitive word for it. I currently use spear 55 Gr SP in that 10.5 platform, primarily because I have an abundance at the moment and dont really believe in or see the reason to storing non air tight sealed ammo long term.
I would say that having bulk of one as well as familiarizing yourself with the ammo’s capabilities in each platform is smart, therefore you have a solid uniformed understanding with the way it handles in an actual situation. As of now with crazy ammo prices I’ve just been buying whatever cheap brass I can find from reputable names in the industry for training ammo. Ill pay a few more CPR after reading some horror stories of some of the lesser known manufacturers selling remanufactured ammo that blows up in your barrel, where its likely the ammo manufacturer or your weapon manufacturer is going to even respond to your inquiries. |
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I prefer a BSP like the TBBC because if SHTF, odds are if I have to shoot someone I'll be in or around a car so barrier penetration is important
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Quoted: I just go with IMI 77 OTM. Never tested it out of my 10.5, but from everything that I have read it is a viable projectile out of a shorter length 5.56 platform and the projectile has great expansion properties at lower velocities. Im sure theres tons of literature on the matter, so dont take my definitive word for it. I currently use spear 55 Gr SP in that 10.5 platform, primarily because I have an abundance at the moment and dont really believe in or see the reason to storing non air tight sealed ammo long term. I would say that having bulk of one as well as familiarizing yourself with the ammo’s capabilities in each platform is smart, therefore you have a solid uniformed understanding with the way it handles in an actual situation. As of now with crazy ammo prices I’ve just been buying whatever cheap brass I can find from reputable names in the industry for training ammo. Ill pay a few more CPR after reading some horror stories of some of the lesser known manufacturers selling remanufactured ammo that blows up in your barrel, where its likely the ammo manufacturer or your weapon manufacturer is going to even respond to your inquiries. View Quote Yeah I've just started stocking the IMI 77gr myself. Very accurate out of my builds, all of which have DD barrels (10.3, 14.5 and 16) |
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m855
mk262 And if you can find it it doesnt hurt to have some m855a1 |
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I would look at the frag or expansion range of the ammo I was considering relative to the velocities expected from that ammo thru the barrel lengths I would expect to be using it in. Something like FUSION 62gr MSR has a much longer max effective terminal performance range than 77gr OTM does from a 10.5" barrel, for example. 77gr TMK falls between the 2.
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I have several hundred rds of 75 gr gold dot and otm but I’ve considered going to 62 gr gold dot because I don’t have to adjust my optics for the shift in different grain bullets.
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My main bulk shtf stock up ammo is mk262. Browntip for the plate carriers and HD rifle. A little m855A1 and RRPL. the rest is m193 for training. I vote mk262. It's a known solid performer across a wide range of platforms and ranges. There is better stuff available but a lot more expensive.
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Quoted: Yeah I've just started stocking the IMI 77gr myself. Very accurate out of my builds, all of which have DD barrels (10.3, 14.5 and 16) View Quote Right before ukraine kicked off it was 92cpr with free shipping on midway. Only snagged a single case, 100% buying more next time it goes on sale. Last week I ran a 20 rd mag of it through my 14.5 Knights mod 2 @600 yards and was hitting steal with ease. Switched to norma 62 Grain m193 at the same distance and I was all over the place. |
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Do you live a rural environment.... or urban?
Rural - 77grn. Urban - Fusion. Because of its versatility... I'd go Fusion or whatever BSP you can get. |
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I love the 62gr fusion because the trajectory pretty closely matches m855
Bc is .301 and velocity is close |
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I would stock up on regular old M193, preferably IMI.
For the price that you’d pay to “stack it deep” on ammunition like TBBC, GDHP, MK262, etc. you could put away double, maybe triple of M193. At one time I was only buying BH MK262 by the case load. Whenever it was available, I’d buy 1k at a time. Once the ammo crunches started to happen, replacing that particular ammo was almost impossible due to supply and cost. M193 on the other hand, though prices increased, I was still able to buy 1k every paycheck without hurting too much. |
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I have a mix of Mk262, M193 and M855, it's the best I could do.
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I have different loads for different guns..
I stacked IMI 77g pretty deep. I always have stacked 55g M193 Recently got a decent buy on black hills 62g TSX. I always have m855 because that is what I practice with. Still have my stash from the "salad days" I'm not an ammo expert though. I will refer you to Molon's posts. The dude is a walking ammo bible, assuming he walks. |
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Quoted: I would look at the frag or expansion range of the ammo I was considering relative to the velocities expected from that ammo thru the barrel lengths I would expect to be using it in. Something like FUSION 62gr MSR has a much longer max effective terminal performance range than 77gr OTM does from a 10.5" barrel, for example. 77gr TMK falls between the 2. View Quote Negative, 77 TMK has the longest range of fragmenting. In 5.56 pressure out of a 16-18" barrel it works out to 400 yards. As long as you cross 2700 fps you also cross 400 yard high level terminal capability. Problem with Black Hills 77 5.56 TMK is they have been loading it shorter and shorter over the years and it gets harder and harder to find. Accuracy gets worse and worse while prices have gone up and up. |
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Quoted: Negative, 77 TMK has the longest range of fragmenting. In 5.56 pressure out of a 16-18" barrel it works out to 400 yards. As long as you cross 2700 fps you also cross 400 yard high level terminal capability. View Quote While the fragmentation is reduced at this velocity, the expansion appears to be better at low velocities than the 62 gr Fusion - so if one counts a 1650 FPS Fusion as 'effective', a 77 gr TMK at 1650 FPS is better. |
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Quoted: 2700 FPS muzzle velocity with a G7 coefficient of .203 and a conservative 1600 FPS velocity threshold yields an expansion range of 570 yards. While the fragmentation is reduced at this velocity, the expansion appears to be better at low velocities than the 62 gr Fusion - so if one counts a 1650 FPS Fusion as 'effective', a 77 gr TMK at 1650 FPS is better. View Quote The TMK really is one of the best, if not the best .224" bullets out there. It does basically everything well, aside from barrier performance. Awesome bullet. |
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Quoted: Negative, 77 TMK has the longest range of fragmenting. In 5.56 pressure out of a 16-18" barrel it works out to 400 yards. As long as you cross 2700 fps you also cross 400 yard high level terminal capability. Problem with Black Hills 77 5.56 TMK is they have been loading it shorter and shorter over the years and it gets harder and harder to find. Accuracy gets worse and worse while prices have gone up and up. View Quote Thank you DevL. I am, by no means, an expert and if there are errors or holes in my logic, I appreciate knowing about it. I do not disagree with you at all out of a 16-18" barrel. Given that the OP specifically referenced his 10.3" SHTF/HD carbine, I was trying to point out that when looking for ammo, he should take into account the velocities from his barrel lengths and the intended use(s) of the rifle(s). Below are the numbers I based my ammo choices on. Much of the data came from this thread: Suppressed SBR Ammo velocities. My ammo choice of Fusion 62 gr was based upon my 10.5", 12.5" and 14" carbines. My example from the post you quoted was for my 10.5" suppressed carbine. From a 10.5": IMI 77 OTM LR MOD 1 has a MV of about 2403fps. It's fragmentation velocity is around 2100fps fps. That puts the distance about 140 yds. Black Hills 77 TMK has a MV of 2438fps. Its fragmentation velocity is about 1900 fps. That puts the distance about 300 yds. Federal Fusion MSR 62 has a MV of about 2530fps. It's fragmentation velocity is about 1700 fps. That puts the distance about 350 yds. 11.5": 77 OTM = ~180yds 77 TMK = ~300yds 62 MSR = ~380yds 12.5": 77 OTM = ~220yds 77 TMK = ~325yds 62 MSR = ~415yds 14.5": 77 OTM = ~235yds 77 TMK = ~380yds 62 MSR = ~425yds 77 TMK is a good choice, if you can find it. Maybe, at the Fusion MSR minimum frag velocity (1600fps), the TMK has better expansion, I don't recall seeing data on that nor were 500yd+ distance shots a prime concern so that was not factored into my choice. For MY SBRs and their optics and intended uses, both 62 MSR and TMK are good choices. If TMK was available and I had longer range optics, I would probably choose the 77 TMK over the MSR 62. |
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Video of the 77 gr TMK at 1650 FPS again.
1650 FPS TMK shot There is also a member on this board who recorded an antelope kill at 1780 FPS with 77 gr TMK - bullet expanded with reduced fragmentation. Expansion of 62 gr Fusion at 1650 FPS is very modest. I would not really put the comfortable threshold below that velocity; while the nose might still open up a little at slightly lower speeds, it will likely not result in a petal formation that is noticeably wider than the base of the bullet, therefore resulting in a very minimal increase in tissue destruction. Leid has a photo of a middle weight Gold Dot or Fusion shot into water at around 1650 FPS but unfortunately I can't find it. |
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i was able to get about 600 rounds of IMI 77gr for a "decent" price so that is what i have loaded in SHTF mags and all my 5.56 AR's are zeroed for it.
i put together a handload that is slightly more accurate but holds close to the POA POI of the IMI that i use for practice. |
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My general theory boils down to:
M193 for barrels >16" Mk262 for barrels <16" Though my friend runs only Mk262. His logic being just about any body armor on the market is going to stop 5.56 unless its velocity is really pumped up. |
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Quoted: Though my friend runs only Mk262. His logic being just about any body armor on the market is going to stop 5.56 unless its velocity is really pumped up. View Quote He's essentially correct, the only plates that M193 might be expected to penetrate are steel plates and *maybe* a very limited selection of special threat and level III plates, and full steel is not likely to be worn by anyone who is particularly dangerous. This capability only exists at close range and the likelihood will decrease with any kind of noticeable angle. The overwhelming majority of ceramic level III and III+ plates can stop M193 moving at 20" barrel speeds and most likely considerably faster. Level IV is hard to penetrate even with extremely rare M995 tungsten core armor piercing ammunition. ESAPI Rev G onwards (mil standard issue) is explicitly rated for 3 hits of M995. Keep in mind, all of these plates look pretty much the same in a carrier. You're not going to know which one you're shooting at unless you have prior knowledge. |
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Different loads for different rifles for me. Still evaluating some things but i've seemed to settle on IMI 77g razor core on my 20". My Socom gets 62g Black Hills TSX/M193. My 11.5 gets M193. IF SHTF, i'm taking my 20" and 14.5. So there is that.
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I have been a MK262 user for years. I’m down to my last 1500 rounds and just can’t justify replacing it. I have switched everything over to IMI M193.
I will continue to use the M193 without second thoughts. Quoted: I’m thinking about consolidating my SD ammo stash to a single kind of round. I generally just practice and shoot with the cheapest 55-62gr fmj crap that I can get, so I have plenty of that. But I have a handful of 62gr stuff (Fed Fusion and GDHP and TBBC/FBI3T) and 77 grain stuff. I’m going to focus on shifting to just one kind for commonality across all my 5.56 ARs. I don’t hunt (and wouldn’t) with any of my 556 rifles. All of the ARs I’d grab for anything remotely serious have barrels 10.3”-16” in length and my actual HD bedside grab & go gun is a 10.3” ... Consolidating to which round would serve me best? View Quote |
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