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Posted: 5/26/2021 1:32:57 PM EDT
[#1]
I've never seen one, but I'm 100% certain it can be disassembled.
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Posted: 5/26/2021 1:40:02 PM EDT
[#2]
So would it be legal if the brace part was removed and just the buffer tube remained?
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Posted: 5/26/2021 1:40:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So would it be legal if the brace part was removed and just the buffer tube remained? Pistol w/o a stock is still a Pistol. |
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Posted: 5/26/2021 1:59:53 PM EDT
[#4]
If you are talking this pistol then yes you can remove the brace (NOT a Buttstock btw) and it will be legal.
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Posted: 5/26/2021 2:49:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pistol w/o a stock is still a Pistol. But wouldn’t have the potentially illegal brace. I removed all of my braces before leaving on this deployment just in case something gets passed while I’m out of the country. |
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Posted: 5/26/2021 3:13:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:But wouldn’t have the potentially illegal brace. OP used the term "stock" to describe the brace. I reused that same term as not to confuse the OP. @KILLERB6 |
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Posted: 5/26/2021 6:32:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Not if they ban ARs.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:19:52 AM EDT
[#8]
I'm not a lawyer, so do your own research, but if AFT considers pistol braces to be a stock and your gun is factory built with a brace, then that means it was originally built as a short barreled RIFLE from the factory. If you read the law it says you can't build a pistol from a rifle. It'd be same as asking if you take the A2 stock off of an A2 clone, can you put on a 7" barrel and call it a pistol.
If you built your own gun from a stripped lower you could take the brace off and..... Who'd know it ever had one? Or assume you built it and added the brace last, then it was a pistol that temporarily became an unregistered SBR, then you fixed it. ATF may get a list of who bought these guns and come looking for them. You can buy a stripped lower and build a pistol lower and put that upper on it, then throw a stock and rifle upper on you S&W lower. If you don't want another AR you can strip out your old lower and reuse everything but the brace on the new lower. A $60 lower is cheap insurance. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:25:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not a lawyer, so do your own research, but if AFT considers pistol braces to be a stock and your gun is factory built with a brace, then that means it was originally built as a short barreled RIFLE from the factory. If you read the law it says you can't build a pistol from a rifle. It'd be same as asking if you take the A2 stock off of an A2 clone, can you put on a 7" barrel and call it a pistol. If you built your own gun from a stripped lower you could take the brace off and..... Who'd know it ever had one? Or assume you built it and added the brace last, then it was a pistol that temporarily became an unregistered SBR, then you fixed it. ATF may get a list of who bought these guns and come looking for them. You can buy a stripped lower and build a pistol lower and put that upper on it, then throw a stock and rifle upper on you S&W lower. If you don't want another AR you can strip out your old lower and reuse everything but the brace on the new lower. A $60 lower is cheap insurance. These weapons were built as pistols, sold as pistols, transferred as pistols. It started as a “pistol” so if it’s deemed the “pistol brace” accessory is redefined after the fact as a “stock” one can remove that accessory and it’s still a pistol according to existing unconstitutional law. At least that’s a logical view of things, so lefty’s likely won’t view it that way... |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 7:47:04 PM EDT
[#10]
My short answer is "no one knows". It all depends on the wording of any ruling/law.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 9:56:59 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm not a lawyer, so do your own research, but if AFT considers pistol braces to be a stock and your gun is factory built with a brace, then that means it was originally built as a short barreled RIFLE from the factory. Well you are correct about one thing 
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Posted: 5/28/2021 11:28:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Inappropriate
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Posted: 5/30/2021 12:37:28 PM EDT
[#13]
no way the ATF will declare it to be an SBR without anyway of making it a pistol, too much negative publicity regarding gun confiscation. And too clear a ruling. Instead they will issue about 10 different technicalities on what is a pistol vs. SBR just to confuse everyone.
Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. so you can keep it but it will be a mess. |
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Posted: 5/30/2021 2:45:42 PM EDT
[#14]
Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. T/C Contender and Encore PISTOLS have a separate wood forend. I don't see them going there as it will have far too many ramifications. I think if they do anything it will be in line with their previous directive. E.G. If you have a magnified optic with 3" eye relief you don't have a pistol.... |
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Posted: 5/30/2021 9:16:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. ATF's own website shows people shooting pistols with 2 hands..... 
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Posted: 6/2/2021 2:37:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not a lawyer, so do your own research, but if AFT considers pistol braces to be a stock and your gun is factory built with a brace, then that means it was originally built as a short barreled RIFLE from the factory. If you read the law it says you can't build a pistol from a rifle. It'd be same as asking if you take the A2 stock off of an A2 clone, can you put on a 7" barrel and call it a pistol. If you built your own gun from a stripped lower you could take the brace off and..... Who'd know it ever had one? Or assume you built it and added the brace last, then it was a pistol that temporarily became an unregistered SBR, then you fixed it. ATF may get a list of who bought these guns and come looking for them. You can buy a stripped lower and build a pistol lower and put that upper on it, then throw a stock and rifle upper on you S&W lower. If you don't want another AR you can strip out your old lower and reuse everything but the brace on the new lower. A $60 lower is cheap insurance. 
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Posted: 6/2/2021 2:37:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My short answer is "no one knows". It all depends on the wording of any ruling/law. This |
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Posted: 6/2/2021 2:41:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Keep the comments tech
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Posted: 6/3/2021 6:40:11 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Can it be removed? If they ONLY ban braces, yes. If they ban AR pistols, no. |
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Posted: 6/7/2021 5:59:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: no way the ATF will declare it to be an SBR without anyway of making it a pistol, too much negative publicity regarding gun confiscation. And too clear a ruling. Instead they will issue about 10 different technicalities on what is a pistol vs. SBR just to confuse everyone. I made it to page 20 something out of 71 before I got tired of reading the proposed regs. Lets just say I might have under called it by saying only 10 different technicalities... |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 10:39:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Stop
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Posted: 6/8/2021 2:16:16 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just about every brace made will be deemed illegal based on their new criteria form, 4999. The public has 90 days to comment on these proposals. Check the criteria, if it fails take it off. No such thing as a law where you can't make a pistol out of a rifle or vice versa, that's stupid. They just care if it has a stock or not. There sure as hell is.  If first a rifle, always a rifle. If first a pistol, you can subsequently reconfigure as rifle, then back to pistol as often as you want. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 2:18:48 PM EDT
[#23]
M&P 15-22 pistol will be legal with the SBA3 removed. SBA3/4 is an automatic fail.
In order to add a brace back on, the M&P 15-22 pistol will need weight added to reach 64 oz in the form of things that aren't removable accessories and are necessary to fire the weapon. Areas where this would be possible without significantly altering the gun: Pistol Grip Magazine Handguard Muzzle Device Per S&W, the gun weighs 53.6 oz. an SBA3 is 6.75oz. meaning the weight of the M&P without the brace is 46.85oz. This means 17.15oz must be added to the pistol to make it brace-able. At that point, you can add an acceptable brace. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 3:21:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Just about every brace made will be deemed illegal based on their new criteria form, 4999. The public has 90 days to comment on these proposals. Check the criteria, if it fails take it off. No such thing as a law where you can't make a pistol out of a rifle or vice versa, that's stupid. They just care if it has a stock or not. @AR_Master as pointed out that’s not true and this is a tech forum so please don’t spread bad info. Pistols cannot be made from rifles. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 5:19:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ATF's own website shows people shooting pistols with 2 hands..... https://www.atf.gov/n/n/n/sites/default/files/media/2018/08/tactical-training.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. ATF's own website shows people shooting pistols with 2 hands..... https://www.atf.gov/n/n/n/sites/default/files/media/2018/08/tactical-training.jpg Every Federal Law Enforcement Officer is taught a two handed grip on a pistol during their training at any of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers and that is the primary grip used to qualify. Single handed grips are also taught and used as as small part of most qualification courses of fire; however, a two handed grip is used primarily in the training and quals. It would be interesting to do a FOIA request for FLETC's handgun training syllabus/training manual to show that just about everything is shot with two hands. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 5:52:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My short answer is "no one knows". It all depends on the wording of any ruling/law. In the big thread, several have pointed out that it's impossible to tell what the final rule will look like, or if it even survives. Trying to figure it out now is a frustrating waste of time and effort. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 5:55:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every Federal Law Enforcement Officer is taught a two handed grip on a pistol during their training at any of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers and that is the primary grip used to qualify. Single handed grips are also taught and used as as small part of most qualification courses of fire; however, a two handed grip is used primarily in the training and quals. It would be interesting to do a FOIA request for FLETC's handgun training syllabus/training manual to show that just about everything is shot with two hands. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. ATF's own website shows people shooting pistols with 2 hands..... https://www.atf.gov/n/n/n/sites/default/files/media/2018/08/tactical-training.jpg Every Federal Law Enforcement Officer is taught a two handed grip on a pistol during their training at any of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers and that is the primary grip used to qualify. Single handed grips are also taught and used as as small part of most qualification courses of fire; however, a two handed grip is used primarily in the training and quals. It would be interesting to do a FOIA request for FLETC's handgun training syllabus/training manual to show that just about everything is shot with two hands. Whether a pistol is shot with one hand, two hands or both feet is immaterial. How it is designed is material. FFS, ATF regs aren't difficult to understand, but ya got to read 'em first. 
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Posted: 6/8/2021 6:07:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whether a pistol is shot with one hand, two hands or both feet is immaterial. How it is designed is material. FFS, ATF regs aren't difficult to understand, but ya got to read 'em first. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. ATF's own website shows people shooting pistols with 2 hands..... https://www.atf.gov/n/n/n/sites/default/files/media/2018/08/tactical-training.jpg Every Federal Law Enforcement Officer is taught a two handed grip on a pistol during their training at any of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers and that is the primary grip used to qualify. Single handed grips are also taught and used as as small part of most qualification courses of fire; however, a two handed grip is used primarily in the training and quals. It would be interesting to do a FOIA request for FLETC's handgun training syllabus/training manual to show that just about everything is shot with two hands. Whether a pistol is shot with one hand, two hands or both feet is immaterial. How it is designed is material. FFS, ATF regs aren't difficult to understand, but ya got to read 'em first. Ok, so on a Glock - used by many Federal Law Enforcement Officers - what was Gaston's intent for the shape of and checkering on the front of the trigger guard? I think everyone would agree it was for the placement of the index finger of the support hand - it was designed to be shot with two hands. Back to OP's question: It is too early to know how all of this will shake out, but yes, the brace can be removed from the receiver extension / buffer tube. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 6:22:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not a lawyer, so do your own research, but if AFT considers pistol braces to be a stock and your gun is factory built with a brace, then that means it was originally built as a short barreled RIFLE from the factory. If you read the law it says you can't build a pistol from a rifle. It'd be same as asking if you take the A2 stock off of an A2 clone, can you put on a 7" barrel and call it a pistol. If you built your own gun from a stripped lower you could take the brace off and..... Who'd know it ever had one? Or assume you built it and added the brace last, then it was a pistol that temporarily became an unregistered SBR, then you fixed it. ATF may get a list of who bought these guns and come looking for them. You can buy a stripped lower and build a pistol lower and put that upper on it, then throw a stock and rifle upper on you S&W lower. If you don't want another AR you can strip out your old lower and reuse everything but the brace on the new lower. A $60 lower is cheap insurance. It was built a pistol at the factory and transferred as a pistol. Ruling makes it an SBR and if the brace is taken off before the ruling goes into effect, then it was never an SBR and has remained a pistol. Even the ATF says it was sold as a pistol. Just because they change the definition doesn't mean it is retroactive. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 6:32:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every Federal Law Enforcement Officer is taught a two handed grip on a pistol during their training at any of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers and that is the primary grip used to qualify. Single handed grips are also taught and used as as small part of most qualification courses of fire; however, a two handed grip is used primarily in the training and quals. It would be interesting to do a FOIA request for FLETC's handgun training syllabus/training manual to show that just about everything is shot with two hands. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. ATF's own website shows people shooting pistols with 2 hands..... https://www.atf.gov/n/n/n/sites/default/files/media/2018/08/tactical-training.jpg Every Federal Law Enforcement Officer is taught a two handed grip on a pistol during their training at any of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers and that is the primary grip used to qualify. Single handed grips are also taught and used as as small part of most qualification courses of fire; however, a two handed grip is used primarily in the training and quals. It would be interesting to do a FOIA request for FLETC's handgun training syllabus/training manual to show that just about everything is shot with two hands. I can tell you with certainty that FLETC teaches and quals with ALOT of both strong and support single hand shooting. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 6:52:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can tell you with certainty that FLETC teaches and quals with ALOT of both strong and support single hand shooting. The PPC consists of 60 rounds. 52 are shot with both hands (87%) 8 are shot with strong or support hand only (13%) The number of rounds shot during training with two hands, I would guess is a higher percentage. My point for the OP is that the answer is unknown for many reasons and that you need to know the intent of the manufacturer to determine how firearms are scored. |
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Posted: 6/8/2021 9:49:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: It was built a pistol at the factory and transferred as a pistol. Ruling makes it an SBR and if the brace is taken off before the ruling goes into effect, then it was never an SBR and has remained a pistol. Even the ATF says it was sold as a pistol. Just because they change the definition doesn't mean it is retroactive. You don’t know that. They can do what they want. They could once again argue that since the brace is a stock and it was assembled and sold that way that it’s a SBR and was transferred illegally just like they tried to do to Q. |
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Posted: 6/9/2021 1:46:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: . Ok, so on a Glock - used by many Federal Law Enforcement Officers - what was Gaston's intent for the shape of and checkering on the front of the trigger guard? I think everyone would agree it was for the placement of the index finger of the support hand - it was designed to be shot with two hands. Back to OP's question: It is too early to know how all of this will shake out, but yes, the brace can be removed from the receiver extension / buffer tube. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Worst case they mandate that handguards are a no go as a pistol can be shot with two hands around the grip. ATF's own website shows people shooting pistols with 2 hands..... https://www.atf.gov/n/n/n/sites/default/files/media/2018/08/tactical-training.jpg Every Federal Law Enforcement Officer is taught a two handed grip on a pistol during their training at any of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers and that is the primary grip used to qualify. Single handed grips are also taught and used as as small part of most qualification courses of fire; however, a two handed grip is used primarily in the training and quals. It would be interesting to do a FOIA request for FLETC's handgun training syllabus/training manual to show that just about everything is shot with two hands. Whether a pistol is shot with one hand, two hands or both feet is immaterial. How it is designed is material. FFS, ATF regs aren't difficult to understand, but ya got to read 'em first. Ok, so on a Glock - used by many Federal Law Enforcement Officers - what was Gaston's intent for the shape of and checkering on the front of the trigger guard? I think everyone would agree it was for the placement of the index finger of the support hand - it was designed to be shot with two hands. Back to OP's question: It is too early to know how all of this will shake out, but yes, the brace can be removed from the receiver extension / buffer tube. For fucks sake. A Glock has ONE FUCKING GRIP, not two. It doesn't matter one fucking bit if it has a squared trigger guard because AGAIN.....IT WAS DESIGNED WITH ONE FUCKING GRIP. How you hold it is not the design, but usage. |
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Posted: 6/13/2021 10:05:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Can it be removed? When you say removed do you mean just pulling down on the catch and sliding the brace part off leaving a standard carbine buffer tube with the raised ridge with the row of holes for the latch? If you're thinking that way I'd suggest you get a smooth pistol buffer tube like at the link and replace both the brace and the carbine buffer tube with the pistol buffer tube. Someone might make the argument that a carbine buffer tube is too easily "modified" by sliding on a standard carbine stock, thus "manufacturing" an SBR. no affiliation, just what the google coughed up. https://phase5wsi.com/ar-15-pistol-buffer-tube.html |
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