Picked up yesterday to go with their XM16E1 retro.  Working on getting a better stock.  Their CAR stock is commercial diameter, but it’s on a mil-spec tube, so it’s loose.  Also, although I hate taking apart a brand new gun, I’m probably going to swap out the slip ring for the correct delta ring because it bugs me.  The rest of the inaccuracies like the notched safety and A2 port door don’t bother me enough to try and hunt down replacement parts.

The photo looks black to me. Can you confirm that it's gray? sweet looking piece.

A piece of Signode metal strapping with a hole to allow the stock's lock plunger to pass through...
Is perfect to take up the sloppy stock. Go to any receiving dock and ask for a cut off piece

They are a very dark gray.  Not quite as black my Colt LE6920, but still dark.  There is a little contrast with the black furniture and CH.  they definitely aren’t the light gray color.

Remember that an XM177 type model had no bayonet lug either.

Nice looking rifle overall and should be a lot fun to shoot!

Unfortunately as seen with the other models there are definitely some things Brownells needs to work on.  Everyone has been stating they are darker in color then most would prefer.  The buttstock on the XM177E2 has also been a point of contention.  I highly doubt they will ever remove the bayonet lug since that would require them to use different front sight bases then the other three models or atleast have them machined off then recolored which is unlikely to happen.

In the case of the XM177E2 model in particular and if I didn’t already have two builds using a lot of original parts I would probably have to go with a Troy over the Brownells.  The Troy is a lot more correct, other then having the wrong ejection port door which is also a problem shared with the Brownells models as well.  The Troy is using a reprofiled lower receiver and though the gray coloring is better it is obviously painted or coated on which is a disappointment for some but overall looks ok.  The Troy comes with a much better and more accurate black coated aluminum buttstock along with a few bonus extras, such as better markings, field expedient sling, two magazines, cleaning kit, manuals, etc. which are certainly nice additions.  And finally the Troy is more fairly priced $100.00 less then the Brownells XM177E2 example.

The Brownells line is overall nice and I’m happy to see them doing it since they are making the investment into a market that most have avoided.  I just wish they would have waited a little longer to fine tune some of the small details before putting them on the market and also priced them more inline with where they should be for what you get.  Sadly a lot of the people they used for T&E input do not have enough knowledge about what is correct on the various models and therefor were not helpful in the product line development.  Brownells was looking for large scale promotion and functional tests not seeing if they were the most accurate representations of the models they could be.  I do T&E in this industry and so far I have not found an extremely knowledgeable person about the early “retro” M16s having reviewed any of these rifles prior to release.  Everyone I do T&E for knows up front that even if the item is free or I can purchase it for a discounted price, if I so choose to keep it, that my opinion will be actual and critical and not influenced by getting the item, the size of the company, or getting future T&E items from them.  I also hope that Brownells is taking note of the concerns being brought up on forums like this and other places and make the changes to the product line as soon as they can.

Brownells is a great company and they do try to satisfy their buyers needs and concerns when they know about them.  I think they had some internal pressure to get these out both production and marketing wise for Shot Show so some things unfortunately got overlooked or rushed before they were really ready.

I am personally interested in the retro AR10 line and hope that they really get some actual “retro” enthusiast input on them before putting them out on the street.  That said I would be very hesitant to preorder one until I’ve seen a final product.  As what can already be seen in the retro AR15 line the first buyers are getting less then accurate representations of the various models and most likely the buyers that wait and buy future batches will get more refined versions with upgraded correct parts and possibly even priced more appropriately.

Brownells should really fix the inaccuracy of having a bayonet lug on these XM177

They are not going to, they will leave that up to the end user.

That "gray" sucks!

I may just cancel my order for two lowers or at least cancel one of them!

I would shoot it in Norrells Moly resin Colt grey

It seems as though they are sending out some varying shades of gray on the various models of complete retro rifles so it is hard to say what a gray lower receiver will look like.

Yeah I mean I COULD BFPU something with them but I would prefer SOME sort of gray and not that dark slate charcoal ebony abomination!

The two upper I want to put these on are dark gray but not THAT dark!

I agree. That gray does suck! Not the light gray! I am canceling the backorder for the 4 I ordered. That is not right at all!

Sweet little carbine, enjoy it!

I know I have discussed it in further detail above but I think it is a shame that after paying nearly $1,300.00 (without discounts) for a rifle a buyer has to contemplate the changes needed to make it the way it should have already come from the manufacture / selling company.  This retro line of rifles is already currently priced higher then it should be for what you are getting and every change in parts needed to improve it only drives the price up yet more.

Brownells is sold out of all the models currently and I hope that when they do become available again they will either be improved upon with more correct parts, colors, etc. and price them lower accordingly.  Then the buyer can choose if they want to spend additional money to make them more accurate representations of each model or leave them alone at a more affordable price and enjoy them as is.

Awesome rifle.

To everyone bitching about inaccuracies, these are really great starting points. If you're a details freak you should be able to get where you want to go with much fuss.

I agree it is an awesome rifle as it stands......  Just not at a nearly $1,300.00 price.

I also agree that is a good starting point for a retro style rifle.  Especially for those people that would like to purchase a complete rifle and do not want to or have the means to assemble their own rifle......  Just not at a nearly $1,300.00 price.

The rifle is allowed to have inaccuracies that can be changed if the buyer chooses to or not to do so.....  Just not at a nearly $1,300.00 price.

Though the Troy XM177E2 rifle can only compare to the Brownells XM177E2 rifle “apple to apple” since they do not make other comparable models to Brownells it is a perfect example of the fact that a more accurate and still complete rifle can be purchased for less money especially considering all the extras included.

Now many of us do have the means to assemble our own rifles and ofcourse we are probably going to do so while at the same time trying to achieve a more accurate clone.  We probably have spent that much and sometimes more to do so depending on the model but the finished result is worth the cost or even more in most cases.

The problem with the Brownells rifle line in my opinion is not the rifles, they are nice rifles, and it is not the inaccuracies, because those can be changed, it is entirely that they are overpriced for what you are getting.  Depending on the model you purchase they are getting $300.00 to $400.00 to assemble the rifles above the price of the parts separately.  For the price they should be more accurately built parts correctness wise and you should not have to change a single thing otherwise they should be priced lower.

Personally I am not a complete details freak.  Though I do have retro clone rifles that are in some cases about as close as you can get, I also have some that are very much like the ones in the Brownells retro line, just at a fraction of the price.

Not trying to be too much of a pain in the ass here....but overpriced to who? Did I not just read that they are sold out? Value is probably best decided on an individual basis.

Keep in mind they were highly promoted by almost every form of media outlet there is not to mention the Shot Show exhibition.  Also how many of each model were made and available to begin with, 50, 100, 1,000, 5,000?  It makes a difference.  I am sure from a practical business stand point they did not make an absolute abundance of them until they saw the actual buyer response.  Heavy promotion along with a quick sell out is a very smart and strategic business tactic that helps boost future sales and demand.  If you think everyone is buying something or it seems hard to get then it must be worth the price, even if it is not actually the case.  Plus even though they are “sold out” they are taking “back orders” so in essence they now know exactly how many they currently need to build along with having an idea of some future demand for each particular model.  My guess would be that the 601 and the XM177E2 are ultimately the best sellers because of the four models offered they are generally the two hardest for the average person to build because of parts availability.  And for the record even though I believe all the rifle models are priced higher then they should be, the 601 and XM177E2 models should be priced slightly higher then the M16A1 and XM16E1 models simply because they cost more in parts to build.  The 601 comes with a $49.99 waffle magazine, a $59.99 triangle charging handle, and a slightly more expensive chrome bolt carrier group.  The XM177E2 comes with a $49.99 faux moderator that has to be pinned and welded to the barrel and a two position buffer tube with a collapsible (though incorrect) buttstock.  The XM16E1 though basically the same as the M16A1 in parts still has a more expensive chrome bolt carrier group.  If nothing else I think most people would have to agree that the M16A1 model is a much worse deal then the other three.

Pricing in my opinion and formula should be as follows:

601 $1,199.99

XM177E2 $1,149.99 ($1,199.99 if they start putting a more correct aluminum and mil-spec. buttstock on it)

XM16E1 $1,099.99

M16A1 $1,049.99

......OK?

Look, forget I said anything. I dunno what the agenda is, just happy someone is making retro guns.

I’m happy someone is making them too, just a little disappointed with the product for the price.

Can someone post a picture of how these rifles are coming packaged/boxed?

There is one simple choice to make here, if you are okay with the price, then buy it, if you don't like the price then don't buy it.

Apparently a lot of people like it as they are now sold out.

As far as price, I have seen Colt build them that were a lot more expensive and all of the things some are bringing up were brought up on the Colt's.

Some of you guys are really obsessive, instead of griping about it, but your own and build it the way you want to, I built my last M16A1 retro for a little over $500 bucks and have been offered way more that that for it..  And my 727 Clone, I have been getting emails and calls about it for over 6 months now and it is not 100% correct.

Simple if you don't like it, don't buy it, these are not hard choices to make.



Then don't buy it..

I’m not buying any of them anyhow since I already have all these models, some in multiples, and certainly more correct.  I just want the people that are thinking of buying them to know what they are getting for the price they are paying.  Most of us already know but some of the less knowledgeable may be making impulsive or uninformed decisions.  If we don’t tell them they won’t know.  If they know and want to buy them then that is certainly their choice and they can be happy with it.

I do have interest in their AR10 line of retro rifles and those to me seem a lot more fairly priced at this point.  Unfortunately until I see some finalized ones in the wild or get one for T&E I do not want to preorder any.

One thing is for certain a lot of these will be bought by first time retro style rifle owners.  Once you feel the light weight and awesome simplicity of a retro style rifle it makes many of those more modern rifles we have seem clumsy.

On my most recent and more modern AR builds I try and make them as light as possible just so they have a chance of coming close to the comfort of the retro builds.

I fully understand, I really do, but it is not up to us, it is up to those who are making the choice to purchase them, as quick as they sold out, there is a lot of people out there that are happy with their choice.

I think you may be surprise at what they know about these guns, we are retro guys and we want everything perfect but there is a whole bunch of people that are very happy with it being 95% correct.

Really it is not up to any of us to blow their vision of what they want to own.

Guns are personal and everybody buys guns they like for their own personal reasons.

Agreed.....  And I do hope that they are happy with their choice.  There have already been some people that I have heard from that bought them with some regrets but not much more then a little disappointment because of having extra high expectations from all the promotional hype and the rifles not being all they expected for the price.  Their biggest complaints have been with the furniture on them both with feel and color which has already been discussed in the past when people were buying it separately so that is no surprise.  The next complaints seem to be the upper and lower receiver coloring being very dark gray in some cases, the charging handle being black on all the models besides the 601, and ofcourse not having the correct ejection port doors which most of us already knew.  Shooting wise so far I have heard no complaints besides a couple people that don’t understand the difference that 1/12 twist makes when compared to the 1/7 twist they are used to.  There have been some more people buying 55-grain ammunition lately that hadn’t been before.  I guess their Black Hills 77-grain just isn’t as happy in that retro twist rate barrel lol.

@Brownells: again I must mention a great company, will hopefully read and weigh in on this entire forum post at some point.

Let’s see... the M-16A1 was supplied by three different manufacturers and varied in color from gray, gold, purple, and black. If people are upset that it isn’t the right shade of gray, get over it. I swear this is worse than people bitching that their A2’s aren’t the right shade of black.

I’m guessing that you weren’t around for the Bush assault weapons import ban or the Clinton assault weapon and magazine bans. You should be eternally greatful that you are living in a political climate that is favorable for a business to risk its capital. In order to resurrect rifles, in a boutique market, that have not been produced since 1983 or 84.

The M16A1’s came with 1-12 twist, as with all other military rifles chambered in 556 at the time. It wasn’t until NATO standardize 556, did the barrel twist change from 1-12 to 1-7. The M16A1 was designed around the M193 round(55gr FMJ). Anything above that, in a 1-12 twist barrel, will start to tumble past 50 yards.

In other words be greatful and quit your bitching!

I certainly would hope you know me better from previous posts in the Retro Forum and also understood that I was not personally complaining about the upper and lower receiver color or twist rate of the rifles.  I have many retro rifles with original upper receivers of all the various shades of gray from Colt and the other manufacturers and that do not even always match their corresponding lower receivers, have more rifles with 1/12 twist then any other twist rate, and keep on hand more M193 ammunition then any other by choice.

You can't make all the people happy all the time, you can only make some of the people happy some of the time.

ETA: Nice rifle OP. The commercial stock on a Mil. receiver extension is a little though...

I agree with Mike.

Thank you for the reply and it reinforces again my point of what a good company you are and that you do care about your customers along with their input and concerns.

Good info.

Brownells even says that it’s a commercial stock.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-parts/buttstocks/m4-xm177-car-buttstock-commercial-prod109897.aspx

I have an early Bushmaster made XM type butt stock on a military tube. All I did was to run some electrical tape lengthwise down the interior of the stock, building up several layers. I had set them up at 12 o'clock, 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions. Does great, low cost and I have yet to have the tape bundle up or cause any problems. I forget it is in there.

And they also openingly state that the buttstock will fit loose on a mil-spec. buffer tube so I am sure they are aware that some people would be a little unhappy with it.  Hopefully they start selling and using on their XM177E2 rifles a more correct (preferably aluminum) buttstock soon.

Also... the barrel... everything about the barrel!

I have no idea what makes that an "XM177," or why they're even calling it that.

Because they screwed on a faux moderator?

What are you talking about?

The barrel is pencil profile 1/12 twist cut to 12.7" with the 4" moderator pinned/welded, bringing it up to a legal 16".

The bayonet lug needing to be shaved is the only issue for a non-SBR build.

Brownells is making (cloning) and correctly calling it a XM177E2 (or actual model 629 as Mike stated above) not a XM177 which would be an entirely different though in some respects similar build.  Yes the barrel is technically a little longer then what an authentic XM177E2 would originally have but that is to give it a 16”+ barrel length so it does not have to be considered a SBR and which also makes this rifle a lot easier, faster, and less expensive to purchase.

People tend to throw the whole "XM177" term around incorrectly for a lot of builds they do.  Technically there were three different but similar rifles using the "XM177" designation: XM177 (model 610), XM177E1 (model 609), and XM177E2 (model 629).  Most people are usually cloning the XM177E2 just as Brownells is doing.  It is generally the easiest and least expensive to get as close to the original as possible.  Some people that are calling their rifles XM177s really have what is closer to a XM177E2.

From a barrel/muzzle device standpoint, there is no way to make any of the XM177 versions in non-SBR form unless you fudge one or the other.  Personally, I like this look with a slightly longer barrel and a normal size “moderator” over the shorter barrel with the over long and skinny “moderator”

Personally I prefer using a 11.5” barrel with one of the slightly extra long but correct looking faux moderators that are available the best of all the options that keep the barrel length at 16”+.  The 12.7” barrel with the standard length faux moderator is also a great choice and has a nice look as well.  But I definitely agree those barrels floating around and being sold by various venders out there that have those really long, skinny, and funny looking “so called” faux moderators are not authentic in appearance at all.  They are also usually being marketed and sold as “XM177” barrels when they are the furthest thing from.  I think a lot of people buy those barrels without even realizing how incorrect and phony looking they are.  They see “XM177” barrel and get excited lol.

Back when I first got into "retro" there was no one making XM or A1 style anything. If something like this had been available I probably would have skipped the retro forum and gone straight to burning up some plastic to own a couple. Never would have signed up, never would have learned half the great info available here. That is one thought that occurs to me. Another is that some impulse buyers will never know the joy of gathering plastic bins full of dusty gray metal and plastic.

Seriously. Not trying to knock any of the products, nice that they are available. The hunt for original parts is much tougher now than ever. Glad there are alternatives.

But we are going to nitpick. That's what we're here for...

Very true....

This is what I love most about the retro, the hunt!

Acknowledge all... it's still not the right barrel.

That thing is completely jacked from front to back.

Will they be offering the correct assembly as a complete upper in the future?

Is there any interest over at Brownell's in delivering the right parts?

I have not heard any rumors of Brownells offering complete upper assemblies.  I guess they could offer such a thing if there was enough expressed interest.

As far as them sending correct or replacement parts out that will probably depend on how many complaints they receive and what they have planned for addressing the concerned areas on future batches of the rifles.  I think that is why it is important for people to also post comments and concerns in places like this because Brownells can then follow them.

I don’t know that personally I love the hunt but it is definitely part of the retro experience lol.  I am kinda happy that I gathered as many original parts as I did when they turned up for all my current and future builds.  There are probably still plenty more out there but for the most part people are hoarding them.  I actually think that with the reproduction parts becoming readily available it will free up some more of the original parts for the people trying to build the most accurate builds.  In the past even the people that wanted just a relative facsimile of a retro clone for a shooter they still needed at least a few original parts to complete it, but as more reproduction parts are produced that frees up the original parts for the OCD builds.

Great looking rifle! I wanted one of these when they came out but wonder if in the future Brownells will fix the port door and bayo lug etc over time.

I guess its not that hard to just fix yourself. So it doesnt have a Mil Spec tube on it? Thats seems like a glaring oversight.