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Posted: 8/20/2019 12:15:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2019 1:02:53 AM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Just finished putting this together today. Looking at it again, I noticed the barrel is not centered in the handguard.

Spikes upper
White Oak Armament barrel
Midwest Industries gas block
Midwest Industries Combat Rail

The barrel is dimpled and I ensured the gas block set screw hole was lined up with the dimple before torquing. Barrel nut torqued to 40ft/lbs.

Also, the gap is uneven between the barrel and handguard on each side. So I don't think it's the gas block making it appear crooked.

Is this common? Should I just go shoot it? Should I just leave it alone or contact MI? I hope its not the barrel or receiver. I'll be sad if i have to go back to step 1.





























Link Posted: 8/20/2019 1:41:48 AM EDT
Take a pic from the top down of the entire rifle. I bet its the hand guard. Do you have another hand guard you could swap to check?
Link Posted: 8/20/2019 2:41:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2019 2:47:16 AM EDT by rpoL98]
Link Posted: 8/20/2019 8:49:44 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rpoL98:
did you lap the front of the receiver face?

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Lapped-upper-receiver/118-732745/?page=1&anc=bottom#bottom
View Quote
This possibly... How does the barrel align coming out of the receiver without the hand guard on? Have you tried removing the nut and retorque? Take the barrel out of the receiver and place on flat surface is the extension face perpendicular to the barrel itself? What about the receiver face is it perpendicular to the receiver? Place the receiver on its face where the barrel ride against it and see if it is slanted.
Link Posted: 8/20/2019 9:07:48 AM EDT
I had this problem too. Lapped the face to square, barrel centered now.
Link Posted: 8/20/2019 9:13:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2019 9:22:36 AM EDT by cttb]
I guess it depends on how comfortable you are taking the upper apart. If it's easy for you to pull it apart, look at the interface between the upper receiver and the barrel extension. If it doesn't square up, then you'll need to lap the receiver face. If the fit is square, then there's no reason to lap.

I'd shoot the rifle first. If it shoots well, then you have a cosmetic issue, not a functional problem. The amount of windage you have to dial will also indicate whether the barrel's bore is aligned with the upper receiver's rail. Most likely, you have a cosmetic issue with your rail. If that bothers you, send it back. But first you have to figure out whether you do. If the rifle shoots well, that rail wouldn't bother me.

For what it's worth, the most accurate rifle I own (a WOA that shoots under .75 moa regularly) does not sit in the center of its Midwest Industries handguard. I really couldn't tell you whether my others do. It's not something I've ever paid much attention to.

Also, you'll need match ammo and a decent scope for testing the rifle's function. Shooting 3 moa ball ammo won't tell you anything. Federal Gold Medal Match with 69 grain Sierra Match Kings, Black Hills' .223 loading of 77 grain Sierra Tipped Match Kings, or even Hornady 50 grain V-Max (not Superperfromance) should all shoot well enough to identify whether the rifle has a functional problem. One of the loads should get you 1 moa or better five shot groups at 100 yards with at least a 6x scope with a fine reticle.
Link Posted: 8/20/2019 5:48:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2019 3:19:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2019 3:22:58 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Looking at the barrel in relation to the handguard, there is more gap on one side, than the other. So without even looking at the gas block, I can tell the barrel is not centered in the handguard.

The barrel slides into the receiver with little effort, but there is no discernible movement about the index pin. I can feel the ever so slightest movement, but it's not really even visible to the eye.

The receiver seems to stand up find on end. Not sure how to truly tell if something is off. Would torquing to a value higher than 40 make any difference?

I've ran into more problems with this "higher end" build than I have with any of my cheaper ones. Even my $100 Combat Armory upper kit went together tightly and is perfectly centered.













Link Posted: 8/21/2019 3:48:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2019 1:40:04 AM EDT by MS556]
I join the chorus in suggesting that this is probably cosmetic and related to the handguard only. Shoot it and report back on accuracy and whether there is any difficulty with the windage adjustment on your scope. Make sure the scope is mounted entirely on the upper receiver and not out over the rail.

If it shoots well and the rifle zeroes without excessive scope windage adjustment from its mechanical zero (center), then your issue is most likely with the handguard, and may simply be the way you installed it.

Adjust your scope for mechanical zero. Go all the way to one side on windage. Start counting clicks all the way to the other side. Then divide that number by two and move it that many clicks back to the middle. Do the same for the elevation turret. This is a good beginning point. That way you can compare your upper receiver to the barrel. If the rifle zeroes without a lot of windage adjustment on the scope, then all is well with the barrel. Note, that this will not be exact even with a perfectly parallel upper receiver and barrel, as their is some slight horizontal deflection of the bullet (POI to POA) imparted by barrel whip and by bullet spin. But, you ought not be maxing out windage or anything close to that. A 50 yard zero should do, but go to 100 yards, if you can.

There also could be a vertical alignment issue, but based on the photo, I'm assuming the problem to primarily be that the handguard is off to the side, horizontally, in relation to the barrel.

The one picture I was hoping to see, someone else suggested; top down view of the completely assembled upper, barrel and rail. That would show the upper receiver slots, the rail upper slots and the barrel all from looking straight down.
Link Posted: 8/21/2019 4:44:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 12:18:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2019 11:32:59 AM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midwest_Ind:
We always want our customers to be happy.
If you believe the handguard is the issue I will arrange exchanging it and have you try another one.
please send me an email.

pete@midwestindustriesinc.com
View Quote
I really think that would be the easiest and most logical place to start. I'll send an email in the morning. I greatly appreciate the interaction on here.

Chris
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 9:09:50 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midwest_Ind:
OP, it looks like the barrel is slightly crooked in the upper from your picture of the feed ramps. That would cause the gas block to look crooked in the hand guard even though it is straight on the barrel and the rear screw goes into the barrel dimple.

If you pull the hand guard and barrel nut how tight does the barrel extension index pin fit in the index pin slot of the upper?

Thank You
Andy
MI
View Quote
I lean this way. Easy enough to determine.
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 2:47:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2019 3:04:12 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
The entire barrel is offset inside the handguard though, not just the gas block. There is a larger gap between the barrel and the right side of the handguard, than there is between the barrel and the left side of the handguard.

Even with the gas block removed, I think it would still be visibly offset. Even if I cut off the index pin, I should be able to spin the barrel in the receiver and it would still be straight in the handguard at any position, no?
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 2:52:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 3:17:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2019 3:17:42 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
I contacted Spikes as well to see what their thoughts are on it. Was recently in contact with one of their techs regarding a BCG issue, which was handled very well. Shot him an email.
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 3:38:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
The cant looks gradually increasing the farther the distance from the receiver. I am in the face the receiver camp.
View Quote
Very well could be. That was my first thought. Followed by the handguard. Followed by the barrel / extension.

I'm putting 50 on one, 50 on another, 00 on the remainder.

I've never seen a rcvr even close to that bad but I reckon they're out there. I'd be forced to disassemble, put it on a flat surface, shine a light, go from there.
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 3:44:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2019 4:18:32 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Spikes thinks it's the rail. He also said he does not recommend lapping as too much taken off can throw other things out of spec.

Not great pics, but since some of you asked. Barrel nut is torqued, no hardware on the handguard, but it fits on tightly. Yields the same results as when it was tightened down. I can lightly flex the handguard to center, but don't think it'll stay there if I tighten the bolts.

I tried rotating the barrel (before I re-installed the barrel nut of course) while looking at the feed ramps in the receiver and there is not really any discernible movement.













Link Posted: 8/22/2019 5:14:10 PM EDT
Damn. Looks to me on the pic showing the rail to rail alignment, it's perfect. Which takes me back to the barrel for whatever reason. My mind () says if the rcvr or rail were that bad off, the rail to rail mating would be noticeably sucky.
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 5:44:52 PM EDT
Barrel shoulder is not true.
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 7:11:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2019 7:14:15 PM EDT by MS556]
Put it back together, torqueing the barrel correctly, mount and mechanically zero the scope. See if it will zero at 50 or better yet 100 yards. Then report back.

If it zeros without a lot of changes in windage, its the rail. Get with MWI. They will make it right.

If it requires a lot of if windage from mechanical zero to zero on the target, then its the barrel extension or the upper receiver face.
Link Posted: 8/22/2019 7:15:51 PM EDT
If not square optics and barrel sights might not be adjustable enough to hit POA. I had this problem with iron sights, lapped it, no more issue.
Link Posted: 8/23/2019 10:48:15 AM EDT
I got a bad barrel nut once that caused the same problems. The seller didn't help, because I'd had it a while before it was installed.
Had to buy a new one on my dime.
Link Posted: 8/23/2019 11:35:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2019 3:08:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2019 3:09:26 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
I am sending the entire upper to MI. Myself, or Pete if he wishes, will report back with the findings. Great folks.

The gun industry has some of the best customer service I've ever dealt with.
Link Posted: 8/23/2019 3:26:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2019 4:17:20 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midwest_Ind:

Once the upper arrives and we have had a chance to go through it we will report back with our findings.

Have a great weekend all.

Pete
MI
View Quote
This is exactly the reason why I like MI so much. They step up and help their customers and never leave them out to dry. This is why they also earn so many dedicated life long customers like myself.
Link Posted: 8/23/2019 4:46:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midwest_Ind:

Once the upper arrives and we have had a chance to go through it we will report back with our findings.

Have a great weekend all.

Pete
MI
View Quote
You da man. And that's why I 100% agree with EdgecrusherXES.
Link Posted: 8/23/2019 5:22:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2019 5:26:52 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EdgecrusherXES:

This is exactly the reason why I like MI so much. They step up and help their customers and never leave them out to dry. This is why they also earn so many dedicated life long customers like myself.
View Quote
Yep. I have used and recommended MI products since probably 2007 or so, as I had always heard good things. Never had to deal with their customer support, but even more of a reason to like them now.

Gives me peace of mind letting the pros look at it, rather than just swapping out parts through the mail until we find the issue.
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 4:14:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 5:22:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2019 5:27:17 PM EDT by Knife_Sniper]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midwest_Ind:
We received the upper parts today. Please understand that all photos/ videos were taken with a phone.

The first thing we checked was our handguard. The handguard was well within our acceptable deviation. The only thing we found with it was one of the M-LOK slots on the bottom where an accessory improperly installed had caused some deformation of the slot.
Here is a photo of the slot.
https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/C031F82E-D942-4599-BAB8-1E6A74107517_zpsicillytv.jpeg

The next thing we tested was the barrel to barrel extension. There is no issue there.
Please see the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsyEqUVfmfQ

We then tested the upper. What we found was that the face was substantially untrue and required lapping to meet our standards.
Here is a photo after just a little lapping:
https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/7D19857D-89E0-4051-A252-427F07700C46_zps7svvokjp.jpeg
Here is the face lapped to allow the barrel to sit straight:
https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/68D7B8EE-3321-40E6-A755-926153CEB138_zpsv54kz4ka.jpeg

We then assembled the upper. The barrel is much more centered in the handguard.
The upper was built the way our complete uppers are assembled.

https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/85863C32-B0E2-468C-B8E0-E219146DBB9F_zpsz80cybf8.jpeg

Only requirement now is for the OP to install his muzzle device before dropping in his BCG and charging handle and the upper is ready for the range.

Thanks,
PETE
View Quote
Thank you for the visuals.

Many of us have been saying for a long time that lapping makes a difference in centering barrels in the rail. Its nice to have a manufacturer's photos and description of a receiver that is not square. Its also nice to see a standard receiver lapping tool sitting in the background. These tools WORK.

While a receiver and barrel that sit crooked can still be zero'd there is no functional benefit to leaving them that way. By lapping the receiver I, as well as many others, have observed that the rifle's zero is near the mechanical center of your windage.

Every receiver that I assemble gets lapped. All my rifles zero near the center of their windage with in a few clicks. For a OCD builder like me, it's glorious.

Great work PETE!
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 5:47:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2019 5:53:15 PM EDT by Tigwelder1971]
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 5:51:25 PM EDT
Midwest Ind killing the customer service game! Y’all are awesome!
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 6:21:54 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midwest_Ind:
We received the upper parts today. Please understand that all photos/ videos were taken with a phone.

The first thing we checked was our handguard. The handguard was well within our acceptable deviation. The only thing we found with it was one of the M-LOK slots on the bottom where an accessory improperly installed had caused some deformation of the slot.
Here is a photo of the slot.
https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/C031F82E-D942-4599-BAB8-1E6A74107517_zpsicillytv.jpeg

The next thing we tested was the barrel to barrel extension. There is no issue there.
Please see the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsyEqUVfmfQ

We then tested the upper. What we found was that the face was substantially untrue and required lapping to meet our standards.
Here is a photo after just a little lapping:
https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/7D19857D-89E0-4051-A252-427F07700C46_zps7svvokjp.jpeg
Here is the face lapped to allow the barrel to sit straight:
https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/68D7B8EE-3321-40E6-A755-926153CEB138_zpsv54kz4ka.jpeg

We then assembled the upper. The barrel is much more centered in the handguard.
The upper was built the way our complete uppers are assembled.

https://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/Midwest_Ind/85863C32-B0E2-468C-B8E0-E219146DBB9F_zpsz80cybf8.jpeg

Only requirement now is for the OP to install his muzzle device before dropping in his BCG and charging handle and the upper is ready for the range.

Thanks,
PETE
View Quote
yall are awesome! Good job and thanks for doing this for the OP. Kudos
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 7:56:55 PM EDT
Great outcome!

What companies do you all recommend for receiver lapping? I have the same exact problem with one of mine.
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 8:03:07 PM EDT
Midwest Industries is awesome. How many other companies would do this for a customer? The only part of that was the rail. Would Spikes do this for their customers? I am going to go out on a limb and say no.

I have a few MI rails, but I think after seeing how they go out of their way to make their customers happy, my next rifle will be a complete MI. They certainly have strict QC.
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 9:00:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2019 9:01:22 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Hey guys. Been speaking with Pete personally. Not feeling well today and will post more later.

I just wanted to at least publicly mention how outrageously appreciative I am of these guys. MI went out on a limb to help me out, knowing there was a good chance that their product may not be the issue.

I’ve always had mostly good results dealing with firearm-related manufacturers. However, this was beyond “customer service.” I can’t thank Pete and the armorer enough.

Also, not to go without saying thank you all for your assistance as well. Joined this site when I was barely old enough to buy a firearm, and has been pivotal in nearly everything I’ve learned about them since. This was no exception.

Chris
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 4:19:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 4:24:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 5:06:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Hey guys. Been speaking with Pete personally. Not feeling well today and will post more later.

I just wanted to at least publicly mention how outrageously appreciative I am of these guys. MI went out on a limb to help me out, knowing there was a good chance that their product may not be the issue.

I’ve always had mostly good results dealing with firearm-related manufacturers. However, this was beyond “customer service.” I can’t thank Pete and the armorer enough.

Also, not to go without saying thank you all for your assistance as well. Joined this site when I was barely old enough to buy a firearm, and has been pivotal in nearly everything I’ve learned about them since. This was no exception.

Chris
View Quote
Probably gave them something fun to do.... Difficult and unusual problems are often the funnest things to work on. This is why MI gets my business.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 6:20:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2019 1:01:59 PM EDT by the_AR-15_Junkie]
MI, You make some great stuff, and great job helping that man out.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 8:47:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2019 8:55:32 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midwest_Ind:
Glad we were able to get this fixed.
We appreciate our customers and we want you all to know that.

note to the OP:
your upper is on the UPS truck.
View Quote
That's exciting! Thank you! It's so satisfying seeing the gas block perfectly centered beneath the M-Lok slot lol

Did you guys have to remove the gas block? Just curious how difficult it is after using the included red threadlocker.

First time sitting down on the computer and looking at this stuff on a normal screen. Very cool seeing the process. Definitely above my abilities/resources haha

Crazy how untrue the face of the receiver was. Why are most receivers not lapped from the factory? Is it more of the finish, or the metal that's uneven? This is the second Spikes product I've had an issue with recently during this build. The other was the bolt/extractor on the NiB BCG, but for what it's worth, their tech handpicked a new bolt and carrier combo and quickly had it exchanged. They made it right, so I'm a happy camper. Just disappointed in quality control nowadays.

Regarding the M-Lok ding, definitely my fault. That was after assembling and disassembling the darn thing multiple times in frustration trying to convince myself to just live with the crooked upper. Got lazy and didn't use the FAT wrench that time, and the screw hung up. Oops!

Can't wait to finally get this thing to the range. Going to be paired with a Vortex Viper PST II 5-25x50. Locally only have 100yds, but hoping to eventually get out of town where I can open it up further.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 9:47:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2019 9:50:02 AM EDT by bfoosh06]
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 9:56:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 10:12:53 AM EDT
@Midwest_Ind

Just found this thread. Holy moly.

I don't own any MI products. That needs to change. Absolutely amazing CS.

Somebody needs to tack this thread not only to make the point about truing the face of the receiver but also to give great credit to MI for going to such lengths to take care of a customer.

Exceptionally well done, MI.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 8:23:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 9:11:15 PM EDT
There is a reason I use the Vltor MUR for all of my builds. MI is awesome. Next build will be all MI
Link Posted: 9/8/2019 11:01:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:

You... Pacific Tool and Gauge sells the tool for 30 bucks. ( Do not buy the cheap poor fitting Wheeler version ) Buy some non in bedding ( for aluminum ) lapping compound ( Brownells ) and do it . It is super easy.

At about 48 seconds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHxU8VUAHOY

The whole video collection is here... and well worth watching.

https://criterionbarrels.com/media/accurizing-the-ar-15-video-series/
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:

You... Pacific Tool and Gauge sells the tool for 30 bucks. ( Do not buy the cheap poor fitting Wheeler version ) Buy some non in bedding ( for aluminum ) lapping compound ( Brownells ) and do it . It is super easy.

At about 48 seconds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHxU8VUAHOY

The whole video collection is here... and well worth watching.

https://criterionbarrels.com/media/accurizing-the-ar-15-video-series/
Really do appreciate all the info. Ordered the tool from pacific and I'll order the lapping compound soon.

Originally Posted By MRW:
I lap all my receivers using that tool, but i do it by hand, I don't use a power drill
Why by hand?

For drill or by hand how do you know when to stop?
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 5:35:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 7:58:35 AM EDT
Absolutely stellar, above and beyond CS by MI. I don't currently own any of your products but that will be changing the next time I get the itch for a build.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 1:41:27 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LeadBreakfast:
Absolutely stellar, above and beyond CS by MI. I don't currently own any of your products but that will be changing the next time I get the itch for a build.
View Quote
Ditto! Awesome to see their process to check this out, the results, and how MI was able to fix it. It's an impressive insight into how they conduct themselves.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 2:05:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LeadBreakfast:
Absolutely stellar, above and beyond CS by MI. I don't currently own any of your products but that will be changing the next time I get the itch for a build.
View Quote
For sure. Now I kind of wish I had just gone with an MI receiver. Next time around...
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