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Posted: 5/12/2023 2:09:48 PM EDT
I see that Mike Miller's new company Icon Defense has released a BCG with an integral gas key.
 That price, though...Can anyone justify that price for the average AR owner? How much better is it really than a BCG with a normal gas key that's properly staked? For the record, Icon Defense isn't the first company to come out with one of these. Salient Arms and VooDoo have released similar products in the past. I'm guessing they didn't catch on all that well seeing as how they're both discontinued now. So, what gives? Are these just a fancy solution to a problem that doesn't exist? |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 2:12:02 PM EDT
[#1]
I like the design with the screw in and pinned gas pipe. I have seen keys trashed when the BC was dropped on concrete before. It’s nice to be able to replace it.
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Posted: 5/12/2023 2:14:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Mandatory for a piston system. Bad idea for DI.
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Posted: 5/12/2023 2:15:46 PM EDT
[#3]
It is unlikely to come loose.
I had a factory staked Armalite key come loose. Perfect running rifle started to have cycling issues. Things happen. I have also seen dumb ass mil-bros remove their gas key while cleaning. This would prevent that. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 2:19:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mandatory for a piston system. Bad idea for DI. I was thinking my Adam Arms uppers were like that. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 2:20:21 PM EDT
[#5]
All that money and you still get a 9310 bolt ... so nice of them ...
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Posted: 5/12/2023 2:48:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All that money and you still get a 9310 bolt ... so nice of them ... Nothing wrong with 9310 IF it’s done right. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 3:33:10 PM EDT
[#7]
These are all derivatives of the LWRC bolt carrier, which to my knowledge was the first to champion an integral gas key.
https://www.lwrci.com/LWRCI-DI-Bolt-Carrier-Group_p_37.html  What intrigues me is that this BCG, like the Surefire OBC, would allow having a longer recoil stroke if paired with a shorter buffer. Potentially with a tuned gas system you could have a near 'impactless' recoil level similar to the Ultimax 100 constant recoil system. Or at a minimum a softer recoil impulse. https://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/   https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/24/surefire-obc-ar15/ In order to give the bolt a longer stroke, the gas carrier key was shortened. Using a larger single bolt design, the SureFire OBC aims to maintain the overall reliability, also while giving the bolt an overall 60% increase in stroke. This increase in return bolt speed is designed to feed ammo more reliably. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 6:08:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What intrigues me is that this BCG, like the Surefire OBC, would allow having a longer recoil stroke if paired with a shorter buffer. Potentially with a tuned gas system you could have a near 'impactless' recoil level similar to the Ultimax 100 constant recoil system. Or at a minimum a softer recoil impulse. Also, instead of using a shorter buffer you can go with an A5 tube then use any carbine length buffer. Like in my picture below, I'm running an A5 buffer and Kynshot RB5005 (carbine buffer length when compressed) and a Surefire OBC.  |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 6:23:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Generally, reducing parts count is a good thing. It can be too expensive, to manufacture or to replace, but if affordable, is generally advantageous.
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Posted: 5/12/2023 7:38:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1. Also, instead of using a shorter buffer you can go with an A5 tube then use any carbine length buffer. Like in my picture below, I'm running an A5 buffer and Kynshot RB5005 (carbine buffer length when compressed) and a Surefire OBC. https://c3junkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/MK18_556Tubb_A5_RB5005_Spacer_070_SOB-1024x497.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What intrigues me is that this BCG, like the Surefire OBC, would allow having a longer recoil stroke if paired with a shorter buffer. Potentially with a tuned gas system you could have a near 'impactless' recoil level similar to the Ultimax 100 constant recoil system. Or at a minimum a softer recoil impulse. Also, instead of using a shorter buffer you can go with an A5 tube then use any carbine length buffer. Like in my picture below, I'm running an A5 buffer and Kynshot RB5005 (carbine buffer length when compressed) and a Surefire OBC. https://c3junkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/MK18_556Tubb_A5_RB5005_Spacer_070_SOB-1024x497.jpg You know what? I'm going to try this with the A5 tube, carbine normal weight buffer, and this BCG in the OP, unless someone knows where to buy the Surefire. @amphibian What spring? Sprinco green, blue maybe? |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:30:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1. Also, instead of using a shorter buffer you can go with an A5 tube then use any carbine length buffer. Like in my picture below, I'm running an A5 buffer and Kynshot RB5005 (carbine buffer length when compressed) and a Surefire OBC. https://c3junkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/MK18_556Tubb_A5_RB5005_Spacer_070_SOB-1024x497.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What intrigues me is that this BCG, like the Surefire OBC, would allow having a longer recoil stroke if paired with a shorter buffer. Potentially with a tuned gas system you could have a near 'impactless' recoil level similar to the Ultimax 100 constant recoil system. Or at a minimum a softer recoil impulse. Also, instead of using a shorter buffer you can go with an A5 tube then use any carbine length buffer. Like in my picture below, I'm running an A5 buffer and Kynshot RB5005 (carbine buffer length when compressed) and a Surefire OBC. https://c3junkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/MK18_556Tubb_A5_RB5005_Spacer_070_SOB-1024x497.jpg Ah, great to hear from you, I've always enjoyed your ROF tests. Getting to 625rpm with a 10" like that is very impressive. How have the hydraulic buffers held up for you? Have any of the kynshot broken? Thats always been in the back of my mind as a concern. Also, I noticed theres a plastic/rubber 'bumper' at the end of your recoil spring - is that to further dampen shock? That sort of 'rubber to rubber' concept is something I've been thinking of for awhile. In terms of the LWRC BCG, it looks like it would allow even more rearward travel space than the surefire OBC. I'm on vacation right now otherwise I'd measure mine. But I recall the OBC was like +0.4" of travel space, whereas the LWRC looks like it could be up to +0.8". I wonder how the extra travel beyond the OBC would effect ROF, as well as potentially reducing bolt impact as there's a bit more travel distance for the spring to soak up rearward energy before the Buffer impacts the end of the tube? |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:37:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like the design with the screw in and pinned gas pipe. I have seen keys trashed when the BC was dropped on concrete before. It’s nice to be able to replace it. BCG's are like buttered bread. They will always land on the key. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:45:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These are all derivatives of the LWRC bolt carrier, which to my knowledge was the first to champion an integral gas key. https://www.lwrci.com/LWRCI-DI-Bolt-Carrier-Group_p_37.html https://www.lwrci.com/assets/images/462.jpg What intrigues me is that this BCG, like the Surefire OBC, would allow having a longer recoil stroke if paired with a shorter buffer. Potentially with a tuned gas system you could have a near 'impactless' recoil level similar to the Ultimax 100 constant recoil system. Or at a minimum a softer recoil impulse. https://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/ https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/img_4248.jpg https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/img_4250.jpg https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/24/surefire-obc-ar15/ In order to give the bolt a longer stroke, the gas carrier key was shortened. Using a larger single bolt design, the SureFire OBC aims to maintain the overall reliability, also while giving the bolt an overall 60% increase in stroke. This increase in return bolt speed is designed to feed ammo more reliably. My concern would be the running start at the bolt catch. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:55:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know what? I'm going to try this with the A5 tube, carbine normal weight buffer, and this BCG in the OP, unless someone knows where to buy the Surefire. @amphibian What spring? Sprinco green, blue maybe? |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:57:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My concern would be the running start at the bolt catch. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:04:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, great to hear from you, I've always enjoyed your ROF tests. Getting to 625rpm with a 10" like that is very impressive. Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, great to hear from you, I've always enjoyed your ROF tests. Getting to 625rpm with a 10" like that is very impressive. How have the hydraulic buffers held up for you? Have any of the kynshot broken? Thats always been in the back of my mind as a concern. Also, I noticed theres a plastic/rubber 'bumper' at the end of your recoil spring - is that to further dampen shock? That sort of 'rubber to rubber' concept is something I've been thinking of for awhile. In terms of the LWRC BCG, it looks like it would allow even more rearward travel space than the surefire OBC. I'm on vacation right now otherwise I'd measure mine. But I recall the OBC was like +0.4" of travel space, whereas the LWRC looks like it could be up to +0.8". 0 I wonder how the extra travel beyond the OBC would effect ROF, as well as potentially reducing bolt impact as there's a bit more travel distance for the spring to soak up rearward energy before the Buffer impacts the end of the tube? |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:05:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm a big fan of flat springs. https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=977 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You know what? I'm going to try this with the A5 tube, carbine normal weight buffer, and this BCG in the OP, unless someone knows where to buy the Surefire. @amphibian What spring? Sprinco green, blue maybe? Thanks. I'm going to ease into this. I just ordered the FCD RE5F tube (because I wanted ODG), I went with the A5H1 buffer, and Vltor's A5 spring. I'd love for @Samuse to show up and give a counterpoint to all of this but he hasn't posted in a long time, hopefully he's okay and not banned. I'm going to run this on my 11.5 carbine gas, 13.9 mid gas, and 16" mid gas uppers and see what's up. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 10:05:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True. I've thought about that too...however I think the hydraulic buffer will help cushion the impact...but who knows long term. It's all your bolt speed going forward. I wonder if a machined bolt catch made of a really good tool steel would fix the issue? As long as you aren't using the usual cast or MIM catch. |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 12:43:41 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all your bolt speed going forward. I wonder if a machined bolt catch made of a really good tool steel would fix the issue? As long as you aren't using the usual cast or MIM catch. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: True. I've thought about that too...however I think the hydraulic buffer will help cushion the impact...but who knows long term. It's all your bolt speed going forward. I wonder if a machined bolt catch made of a really good tool steel would fix the issue? As long as you aren't using the usual cast or MIM catch. And then we need a hardened steel insert for the LRBHO pin boss and the receiver between the LRBHO channel and the magwell... 
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Posted: 5/13/2023 6:15:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all your bolt speed going forward. I wonder if a machined bolt catch made of a really good tool steel would fix the issue? As long as you aren't using the usual cast or MIM catch. I have never broken a bolt catch either. You more commonly see broken bolt catches on straight blowback 9mm's with heavy buffers. I always say to make sure you are not overgassed to begin with. No spring or buffer is going to help if the barrel is grossly overgassed. With the CMMG RDB, I have mine tuned to only run with a suppressor mounted and it barely goes past the BHO. You can see in the video, it doesn't have much momentum. In my testing, I also cut down the carrier key to match the Surefire OBC for increased travel with my CMMG RDB but it doesn't do anything since my setup is already tuned so it is already 'out of gas' by then.  8" 9mm CMMG RDB, mod'd 5.45 bolt, suppressed, fixed ejector RB5007 Another configuration where you don't have this issue is with 5.45 or 7.62x39 setups using original AK mags/drums. My setup below using the MGI lower, has no BHO to break since most AK mags don't have LRBHO.  |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 9:08:31 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd be down to test but not sure I want to drop the coin for a test. I'm interested to help crowdfund if we get enough people. I'd like to see results with your setups. I've copied the flat wire a5 and hydraulic setup and it's quite the improvement. |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 9:22:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Am I reading correctly the bolt is some proprietary dimension thing? Website says the carrier isn't compatible with a milspec bolt.
This is one that would be veerrrry low on my personal upgrade list. And hopefully this company is still around and selling their special bolts for $200 a pop or something, years down the road when you eventually need a replacement. |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 10:16:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm interested to help crowdfund if we get enough people. I'd like to see results with your setups. I've copied the flat wire a5 and hydraulic setup and it's quite the improvement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd be down to test but not sure I want to drop the coin for a test. I'm interested to help crowdfund if we get enough people. I'd like to see results with your setups. I've copied the flat wire a5 and hydraulic setup and it's quite the improvement. Improved cycling, faster splits, better muzzle recovery? What buffer are we talking about specifically here? |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 11:00:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Improved cycling, faster splits, better muzzle recovery? What buffer are we talking about specifically here? |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 1:44:20 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all on his website he linked. I think it's the RB5007. I also have the RB5005. They are appropriate for the A5 and carbine length tubes with flat wire springs. Thanks. Well I guess I'm going to have a possible learning curve with this. Got green Springco and the Tubbs flat wire also in the cart for another day to get as well. |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 6:09:26 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Am I reading correctly the bolt is some proprietary dimension thing? Website says the carrier isn't compatible with a milspec bolt. This is one that would be veerrrry low on my personal upgrade list. And hopefully this company is still around and selling their special bolts for $200 a pop or something, years down the road when you eventually need a replacement. I noticed that too...thought that was odd. I definitely would not buy this carrier that requires their proprietary bolt. |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 6:11:09 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm interested to help crowdfund if we get enough people. I'd like to see results with your setups. I've copied the flat wire a5 and hydraulic setup and it's quite the improvement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd be down to test but not sure I want to drop the coin for a test. I'm interested to help crowdfund if we get enough people. I'd like to see results with your setups. I've copied the flat wire a5 and hydraulic setup and it's quite the improvement. |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 6:27:49 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all on his website he linked. I think it's the RB5007. I also have the RB5005. They are appropriate for the A5 and carbine length tubes with flat wire springs. Don't know if you guys have seen @Droppoint website: https://blowback9.wordpress.com/2022/12/06/ultimate-gentle-recoil-9mm-ar/ He came to the same conculsions I did regarding the Kynshot buffers and flat springs but he is focused primarily on straight blowback while I was initially focused on the CMMG RDB and later used those configurations on my gas operated setups with great results. It is also interesting to note that he didn't see the benefits of the hydraulic buffer unless they were used in conjunction with a flat spring. Note that not all flat springs are the same and some are too tight for the Kynshot RB5007 / RB5005. He has an article on that too: https://blowback9.wordpress.com/2023/03/03/flat-wire-spring-comparison/ Back when I did my testing, I only knew about the Tubb flat wire springs (3 versions) and they all work great. @Droppoint recommended the Wilson Combat one and I found out that they come from the same source as the Tubb flat wire so that makes sense. The Tubb 556 and 308 springs are both marketed as being compatible in both a carbine and rifle length spring which was the only one I could find that was advertised to do that back then. I bought this one a few months ago that is also advertised to do the same thing: https://www.apexgunparts.com/ar15-m16-flat-buffer-spring-new-us-made.html I think @Droppoint bought one too but I haven't tested it yet. It does fit nicely on the RB5007/RB5005. |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 9:24:59 AM EDT
[#29]
I don't have the Apex spring yet. It's on the list.
I just added a comparison of 6 different Kynshot hydraulic buffers with their length, diameter, compressive force and other stats if anyone's interested. https://blowback9.wordpress.com/2023/05/14/kynshot-hydraulic-buffers-comparison/ Interesting that the .308 buffers require less compressive force than the 5.56 buffers. |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 9:48:18 AM EDT
[#30]
LWRC has their stripped carriers in stock now. I don't want complete since I have plenty bolts and other parts.
So I ordered one. Will be interesting. |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 5:50:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LWRC has their stripped carriers in stock now. I don't want complete since I have plenty bolts and other parts. So I ordered one. Will be interesting. Huzzah! Thanks man. If you set up a crowdfunding thing, I'm down to kick in some cash for your efforts. Really appreciate the work you're doing. I'm very curious is the LWRC allows a longer stroke then the OBC, and if so what effect this will have on recoil and ROF. Looking at the pics it looks like it should allow a longer travel distance (ie 0.8" vs 0.4" of OBC.) |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 7:04:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Which is the weird aftermarket carrier that does use a longer stroke & has a longer dwell time in the bolt keyway?
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Posted: 5/14/2023 9:34:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which is the weird aftermarket carrier that does use a longer stroke & has a longer dwell time in the bolt keyway? |
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Posted: 5/14/2023 10:01:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great...now you tell me. If I knew something like that existed, I would be trying to buy that instead of the LWRC I ordered. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Which is the weird aftermarket carrier that does use a longer stroke & has a longer dwell time in the bolt keyway? Great...now you tell me. If I knew something like that existed, I would be trying to buy that instead of the LWRC I ordered. Surefire Optimized Bolt Carrier: https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/surefire-optimized-and-lmt-enhanced-bolt-carrier/360796 https://www.surefire.com/products/suppressors-division/suppressor-accessories/sf-obc-556-optimized-bolt-carrier-group/ 
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Posted: 5/15/2023 3:58:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Im down with that ,
Make them less than a $100 to my door complete and ill pack a spare and run the shit out of them.. staking and tightening the screws for the gas key ? ALWAYS WORRIED ABOUT THAT WEAK LINK ??? Thats some 3rd world poor design BS imo.. Thank god someone is trying to remove that issue. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 6:54:24 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Surefire Optimized Bolt Carrier: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Which is the weird aftermarket carrier that does use a longer stroke & has a longer dwell time in the bolt keyway? Great...now you tell me. If I knew something like that existed, I would be trying to buy that instead of the LWRC I ordered. Surefire Optimized Bolt Carrier: Yes, it has a longer stroke but uses a single bolt instead of two so it gains about 3/8" of travel vs the LWRC which would gain at least double that. The Surefire OBC also has the 'optimized' cam pin path and spring loaded weight in the carrier and while the LWRC doesn't have those. My goal is to get a contstant recoil setup like the Ultimax. As you probably already know, Jim Sullivan (one of the guys working with Stoner to downsize the AR10 to the AR15 size) designed the Surefire OBC. He also invented the Ultimax. He mentions the OBC design to get it to be close to the Ulitmax here, however note that they are running an open bolt variant that Jim designed in the video.  Interview & Shooting: Jim Sullivan, AR-15 Designer In the first picture I posted, the Surefire OBC combined with the flat spring and Kynshot RB5005 is the smoothest MK18 setup I have. Again, I have details of this in the first link I posted above. About 100RPM slower than using the buffer and spring that comes with the OBC. Using the A5 tube allowed me to use any carbine length buffer. Now with the LWRC bolt carrier having additional travel, I think can use the Kynshot RB5007 but then the A5 won't be long enough and I will have to go to the rifle length tube or the JRC buffer tube. So I would anticipate a cyclic rate lower than 625 RPM with the MK18 but still retain smoothness. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 9:08:47 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh....I guess you didn't look at my website or the pictures I posted above where I call out using a Surefire OBC. I've been using them for years. Yes, it has a longer stroke but uses a single bolt instead of two so it gains about 3/8" of travel vs the LWRC which would gain at least double that. The Surefire OBC also has the 'optimized' cam pin path and spring loaded weight in the carrier and while the LWRC doesn't have those. My goal is to get a contstant recoil setup like the Ultimax. As you probably already know, Jim Sullivan (one of the guys working with Stoner to downsize the AR10 to the AR15 size) designed the Surefire OBC. He also invented the Ultimax. He mentions the OBC design to get it to be close to the Ulitmax here, however note that they are running an open bolt variant that Jim designed in the video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOUKXIrDE0IIn the first picture I posted, the Surefire OBC combined with the flat spring and Kynshot RB5005 is the smoothest MK18 setup I have. Again, I have details of this in the first link I posted above. About 100RPM slower than using the buffer and spring that comes with the OBC. Using the A5 tube allowed me to use any carbine length buffer. Now with the LWRC bolt carrier having additional travel, I think can use the Kynshot RB5007 but then the A5 won't be long enough and I will have to go to the rifle length tube or the JRC buffer tube. So I would anticipate a cyclic rate lower than 625 RPM with the MK18 but still retain smoothness. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Which is the weird aftermarket carrier that does use a longer stroke & has a longer dwell time in the bolt keyway? Great...now you tell me. If I knew something like that existed, I would be trying to buy that instead of the LWRC I ordered. Surefire Optimized Bolt Carrier: Yes, it has a longer stroke but uses a single bolt instead of two so it gains about 3/8" of travel vs the LWRC which would gain at least double that. The Surefire OBC also has the 'optimized' cam pin path and spring loaded weight in the carrier and while the LWRC doesn't have those. My goal is to get a contstant recoil setup like the Ultimax. As you probably already know, Jim Sullivan (one of the guys working with Stoner to downsize the AR10 to the AR15 size) designed the Surefire OBC. He also invented the Ultimax. He mentions the OBC design to get it to be close to the Ulitmax here, however note that they are running an open bolt variant that Jim designed in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOUKXIrDE0IIn the first picture I posted, the Surefire OBC combined with the flat spring and Kynshot RB5005 is the smoothest MK18 setup I have. Again, I have details of this in the first link I posted above. About 100RPM slower than using the buffer and spring that comes with the OBC. Using the A5 tube allowed me to use any carbine length buffer. Now with the LWRC bolt carrier having additional travel, I think can use the Kynshot RB5007 but then the A5 won't be long enough and I will have to go to the rifle length tube or the JRC buffer tube. So I would anticipate a cyclic rate lower than 625 RPM with the MK18 but still retain smoothness. I've looked at your website a few times, but I have a general idea of your setup, particularly your CMMG radial delayed blowbacks w/ your fixed ejector, which I note they're moving to on their newer designs. I skim your posts looking for something new, missed you were running the the Surefire & didn't remember exactly what it was anyway. When I said it was weird, you could have said you were already running the Surefire & saved me the trouble of looking it up.
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Posted: 5/15/2023 9:26:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My concern would be the running start at the bolt catch. I was just thinking this... 9MM Colt pattern PCC have been known to bust bolt catches, if the over travel is to much. Thanks to all for the comments. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 9:44:56 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great...now you tell me. If I knew something like that existed, I would be trying to buy that instead of the LWRC I ordered. @amphibian , @backbencher, @lysanderxiii Everyone might find this interesting. lysander did a review of the Surefire BCG https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?239355-SureFire-Bolt-Carrier-Group-Analysis |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 10:04:03 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was just thinking this... 9MM Colt pattern PCC have been known to bust bolt catches, if the over travel is to much. Thanks to all for the comments. I like to tinker and this isn't an issue with my MGI setups in 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 that use standard AK mags / drums and don't have LRBHO. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 10:04:33 AM EDT
[#41]
Another point:
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Posted: 5/15/2023 10:08:41 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @amphibian , @backbencher, @lysanderxiii Everyone might find this interesting. lysander did a review of the Surefire BCG https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?239355-SureFire-Bolt-Carrier-Group-Analysis |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 11:03:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @amphibian , @backbencher, @lysanderxiii Everyone might find this interesting. lysander did a review of the Surefire BCG https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?239355-SureFire-Bolt-Carrier-Group-Analysis Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Great...now you tell me. If I knew something like that existed, I would be trying to buy that instead of the LWRC I ordered. @amphibian , @backbencher, @lysanderxiii Everyone might find this interesting. lysander did a review of the Surefire BCG https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?239355-SureFire-Bolt-Carrier-Group-Analysis Well, that's disappointing. Anybody can widen the cam path with a Dremel and a lot of time. Sounds like an integral's the way to go if you've got enough money to sink into a single bolt carrier what you can build a complete AR for. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 12:12:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh....I guess you didn't look at my website or the pictures I posted above where I call out using a Surefire OBC. I've been using them for years. Yes, it has a longer stroke but uses a single bolt instead of two so it gains about 3/8" of travel vs the LWRC which would gain at least double that. The Surefire OBC also has the 'optimized' cam pin path and spring loaded weight in the carrier and while the LWRC doesn't have those. My goal is to get a contstant recoil setup like the Ultimax. As you probably already know, Jim Sullivan (one of the guys working with Stoner to downsize the AR10 to the AR15 size) designed the Surefire OBC. He also invented the Ultimax. He mentions the OBC design to get it to be close to the Ulitmax here, however note that they are running an open bolt variant that Jim designed in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOUKXIrDE0IIn the first picture I posted, the Surefire OBC combined with the flat spring and Kynshot RB5005 is the smoothest MK18 setup I have. Again, I have details of this in the first link I posted above. About 100RPM slower than using the buffer and spring that comes with the OBC. Using the A5 tube allowed me to use any carbine length buffer. Now with the LWRC bolt carrier having additional travel, I think can use the Kynshot RB5007 but then the A5 won't be long enough and I will have to go to the rifle length tube or the JRC buffer tube. So I would anticipate a cyclic rate lower than 625 RPM with the MK18 but still retain smoothness. Jim is a cool guy to talk to. I didn't know who he was or why he was wanting to see my buffer and BCG at the local outdoor range a few summers ago during fire restrictions. He was concerned with why my brass was coming out at 2 to 3 and I was baffled why some random was being this concerned like it was his baby. Turns out it sort of was He did give me an OBC when we talked about bolts and I said that it's impossible to find. I thought he was going to sell, he just gave. Pretty fricking cool. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 1:12:17 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jim is a cool guy to talk to. I didn't know who he was or why he was wanting to see my buffer and BCG at the local outdoor range a few summers ago during fire restrictions. He was concerned with why my brass was coming out at 2 to 3 and I was baffled why some random was being this concerned like it was his baby. Turns out it sort of was He did give me an OBC when we talked about bolts and I said that it's impossible to find. I thought he was going to sell, he just gave. Pretty fricking cool. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 1:21:31 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, lucky guy. Someone has one on gunbroker right now asking $999 for it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Jim is a cool guy to talk to. I didn't know who he was or why he was wanting to see my buffer and BCG at the local outdoor range a few summers ago during fire restrictions. He was concerned with why my brass was coming out at 2 to 3 and I was baffled why some random was being this concerned like it was his baby. Turns out it sort of was He did give me an OBC when we talked about bolts and I said that it's impossible to find. I thought he was going to sell, he just gave. Pretty fricking cool. Is Surefire still making the OBC? I've wanted one for years now but could never find one in stock anywhere for a halfway decent price. Would really love to see them make one for a large frame AR as well but that's pure pipe dream. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 1:30:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, lucky guy. Someone has one on gunbroker right now asking $999 for it. I'm not going to donate mine but if there's a donation needed to help with the cause to purchase one from a scalping flipper POS, I am down to help because this would benefit us all really.
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Posted: 5/15/2023 2:55:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is Surefire still making the OBC? I've wanted one for years now but could never find one in stock anywhere for a halfway decent price. Would really love to see them make one for a large frame AR as well but that's pure pipe dream. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jim is a cool guy to talk to. I didn't know who he was or why he was wanting to see my buffer and BCG at the local outdoor range a few summers ago during fire restrictions. He was concerned with why my brass was coming out at 2 to 3 and I was baffled why some random was being this concerned like it was his baby. Turns out it sort of was He did give me an OBC when we talked about bolts and I said that it's impossible to find. I thought he was going to sell, he just gave. Pretty fricking cool. Yeah, lucky guy. Someone has one on gunbroker right now asking $999 for it. Is Surefire still making the OBC? I've wanted one for years now but could never find one in stock anywhere for a halfway decent price. Would really love to see them make one for a large frame AR as well but that's pure pipe dream. How good are you with a Dremel? Cut the back screw hole off yer gas key, and Dremel out the "enhanced" cam path. |
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Posted: 5/15/2023 3:01:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How good are you with a Dremel? Cut the back screw hole off yer gas key, and Dremel out the "enhanced" cam path. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jim is a cool guy to talk to. I didn't know who he was or why he was wanting to see my buffer and BCG at the local outdoor range a few summers ago during fire restrictions. He was concerned with why my brass was coming out at 2 to 3 and I was baffled why some random was being this concerned like it was his baby. Turns out it sort of was He did give me an OBC when we talked about bolts and I said that it's impossible to find. I thought he was going to sell, he just gave. Pretty fricking cool. Yeah, lucky guy. Someone has one on gunbroker right now asking $999 for it. Is Surefire still making the OBC? I've wanted one for years now but could never find one in stock anywhere for a halfway decent price. Would really love to see them make one for a large frame AR as well but that's pure pipe dream. How good are you with a Dremel? Cut the back screw hole off yer gas key, and Dremel out the "enhanced" cam path. Would still be missing the internal buffer at the tail end of the carrier though.
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Posted: 5/15/2023 3:54:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would still be missing the internal buffer at the tail end of the carrier though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jim is a cool guy to talk to. I didn't know who he was or why he was wanting to see my buffer and BCG at the local outdoor range a few summers ago during fire restrictions. He was concerned with why my brass was coming out at 2 to 3 and I was baffled why some random was being this concerned like it was his baby. Turns out it sort of was He did give me an OBC when we talked about bolts and I said that it's impossible to find. I thought he was going to sell, he just gave. Pretty fricking cool. Yeah, lucky guy. Someone has one on gunbroker right now asking $999 for it. Is Surefire still making the OBC? I've wanted one for years now but could never find one in stock anywhere for a halfway decent price. Would really love to see them make one for a large frame AR as well but that's pure pipe dream. How good are you with a Dremel? Cut the back screw hole off yer gas key, and Dremel out the "enhanced" cam path. Would still be missing the internal buffer at the tail end of the carrier though. It's just a Shakeweight. Pin one in!
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